Churches a bigger threat than shopping malls and restaurants?

[Marocc]

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-05-20/defying-state-order-thousands-of-pastors-say-they-plan-to-hold-in-person-services-for-the-pentecost

One thousand and two hundred pastors have signed a 'Declaration of Essentiality' postulating that churches are 'as essential as any grocery or hardware store' which are allowed to remain active.

"By Wednesday, many counties in California had received approval to reopen establishments — retail business, office buildings, restaurants, shopping centers — as permitted in the second phase of Newsom’s plan to restart the state economy. Churches are not allowed to reopen until the plan’s third phase."

[Guest]

Churches are as essential as beaches.  People really like to congregate at them, but they don't need to.

[dialamah]

There's a difference between sitting (or kneeling) side-by-side and wandering huge hallways, and navigating store aisles.  The latter gives an individual room to be as close or far apart as they choose, the former does not.  

People will take the risks they want, which I'm ok with, except when that risk means someone else is injured.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, dialamah said:

There's a difference between sitting (or kneeling) side-by-side and wandering huge hallways, and navigating store aisles.  The latter gives an individual room to be as close or far apart as they choose, the former does not.  

People will take the risks they want, which I'm ok with, except when that risk means someone else is injured.

Yeah, I can't imagine the waiting in line until someone leaves before being allowed in model would work at a church.  The service would be over before most people even got in.

I also can't imagine God, if such exists, not giving folk a pass for "worshiping from home".

[Marocc]

15 hours ago, bcsapper said:

Churches are as essential as beaches.  People really like to congregate at them, but they don't need to.

I would not compare those two. They serve two different purposes.

That kind of logic might not be smart here. You never know when that one thing you like to do ends up on the list of not essential. Going to the grocery store 4 times a week is not essential, but some want to go. Going to get your teeth cleaned is not essential, but some want to go. Skate boarding in a group of four is not essential, but some want to go.

There is a long list of things that can yet be deemed not essential. If one isn't going to deem all that is not essential as not essential, it isn't irrelevant which kind of things one chooses to deem not essential.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Marocc said:

I would not compare those two. They serve two different purposes.

That kind of logic might not be smart here. You never know when that one thing you like to do ends up on the list of not essential. Going to the grocery store 4 times a week is not essential, but some want to go. Going to get your teeth cleaned is not essential, but some want to go. Skate boarding in a group of four is not essential, but some want to go.

There is a long list of things that can yet be deemed not essential. If one isn't going to deem all that is not essential as not essential, it isn't irrelevant which kind of things one chooses to deem not essential.

No, I don't think so.  More important is what is deemed essential.  Churches and beaches might not be the same thing, but they are equally non-essential.  Skate boarding and teeth cleaning likewise.

Grocery shopping and teeth repair would be deemed essential, but not 4 times a week.

[Shady]

16 hours ago, bcsapper said:

No, I don't think so.  More important is what is deemed essential.  Churches and beaches might not be the same thing, but they are equally non-essential.  Skate boarding and teeth cleaning likewise.

Grocery shopping and teeth repair would be deemed essential, but not 4 times a week.

Essential is subjective.

[OftenWrong]

4 hours ago, Shady said:

Essential is subjective.

Mental health is absolutely essential, but easy to dismiss by those who sit at home comfortably.

I should add that for some people that includes Church services.

Edited May 26, 2020 by OftenWrong

[OftenWrong]

On 5/24/2020 at 5:22 PM, bcsapper said:

Churches are as essential as beaches.  People really like to congregate at them, but they don't need to.

To you only.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Shady said:

Essential is subjective.

Of course.  Like I said, groceries are essential, church attendence is not.

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

To you only.

And a lot of other people.

But not to you, obviously. 

Still, better to leave congregations at home than leave them dead.

I guess...

 

[OftenWrong]

54 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

And a lot of other people.

But not to you, obviously. 

Still, better to leave congregations at home than leave them dead.

I guess...

 

Carry on guessing. But surely, within the context of the OP and in comparison to those things, it is completely reasonable to allow it. Let them sit apart in the pews, if that works. Or let them sit together and wear masks. But let them, let them I say. Even though I may not be one to join them, I defend their right to congregate to worship their god, or to have a confessional.

And as I am trained and have been "outside" for the ordeal, I know what the protocols are. I've had to implement said protocols in my work place.

There are ways to allow things to open and still minimize the risk. We are already doing them when a cashier has a plastic screen up.

Edited May 26, 2020 by OftenWrong

[Guest]

52 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Carry on guessing. But surely, within the context of the OP and in comparison to those things, it is completely reasonable to allow it. Let them sit apart in the pews, if that works. Or let them sit together and wear masks. But let them, let them I say. Even though I may not be one to join them, I defend their right to congregate to worship their god, or to have a confessional.

And as I am trained and have been "outside" for the ordeal, I know what the protocols are. I've had to implement said protocols in my work place.

There are ways to allow things to open and still minimize the risk. We are already doing them when a cashier has a plastic screen up.

I disagree.  There is no reason to allow non essential gatherings, especially those where social distancing goals might be less likely to be achieved due to an irrational belief on the part of some of those to whom the restrictions apply that they might have special protection, and therefore do not need to pay as much attention to earthly concerns as someone who might be going to other places, such as a restaurant or a beach, for instance.

 

[OftenWrong]

2 hours ago, bcsapper said:

I disagree. 

You disagree that the rules of social distancing are being broken daily at the places I mentioned, and have been throughout? I guess you are not going outside at all then.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

You disagree that the rules of social distancing are being broken daily at the places I mentioned, and have been throughout? I guess you are not going outside at all then.

No, I disagree with your comment that it is reasonable to allow churches to open.  My fault, I should have edited the quote so that was clear.

[OftenWrong]

6 hours ago, bcsapper said:

No, I disagree with your comment that it is reasonable to allow churches to open.  My fault, I should have edited the quote so that was clear.

Based on your reply, because you hate religion. That is your reasoning, clearly given.

10 hours ago, bcsapper said:

especially those where social distancing goals might be less likely to be achieved due to an irrational belief on the part of some of those to whom the restrictions apply

Haters gonna hate.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

Based on your reply, because you hate religion. That is your reasoning, clearly given.

Haters gonna hate.

What a strange response...

Hate's a strong word.  I can't think of very much I actually hate, other than the obvious (people whose music I can hear when I don't want to).

I do have an awful lot of disgust and contempt for any religion that seeks to impose its will on anyone who would rather it didn't.  That's not the case here though, except in a roundabout sense.  With regard to churches, I just don't think religion is special in any way, and churches should be regarded as any other large gathering of people.  If they decide to let people gather, they can let them gather at churches as well as anywhere else.  If they decide to maintain restrictions, they should apply to churches as well as anywhere else.  My own personal view is that the latter course of action should prevail at the moment.

No hate though.  And unlike your views, no special treatment either.

 

Edited May 27, 2020 by bcsapper
Men never want preference so completely and cheerfully as when they do so from religious conviction - Not Blaise Pascal

[Shady]

16 hours ago, bcsapper said:

Of course.  Like I said, groceries are essential, church attendence is not.

In your opinion.  Unfortunately, these opinions aren’t based in any science.  Apparently one won’t get covid if they need an abortion.  But they will get covid if they need a colonoscopy.   Everyone can go to Walmart and won’t get covid.  But if you go to church or a family owned business, you will.   You won’t get covid buying alcohol or lottery tickets.  But you will get covid if you’re buying a television.  Marijuana dispensaries are deemed essential even though they’ve only been in existence for a couple of years, but a family owned business that’s been in existence for 20 or 30 years is non-essential.  Because apparently you can’t get covid from buying pot.  But you can get covid from the latter.  Don’t you see how ridiculous and absurd this stuff is?   Even you must see it.  It’s completely arbitrary.  That’s why having everything open but practicing mitigation and distancing guidelines is the only real solution.

[Boges]

1 hour ago, Shady said:

It’s completely arbitrary.  That’s why having everything open but practicing mitigation and distancing guidelines is the only real solution.

It's not arbitrary actually. It was a delicate balance between essential and non-essential. And it was done in steps, at least in Ontario. 

Manufacturing and Food are Essential. Churches, Dine-in restaurants and Retail that doesn't specialize in food are not. Especially when a lot of this stuff can be delivered to your home now. 

This does create a loophole where Big Box stores that serve food and retail products can stay open when stores that didn't specialize in food couldn't. 

Gretchen Whitmer in Michigan tried to close that loophole to only allow Big Box stores like Walmart and Costco to only sell food. And that got her Gun-toting Maga-heads at the State Capitol. 

But that's revisionist history. Now all retail can open unless it's in a mall (in most places). 

Malls and large gathering places are another debate all together. I don't things like Food Courts, Restaurants, Movie Theatres, Churches or Gyms being viable for long time to come. It's sad, but it's a reality. 

Edited May 27, 2020 by Boges

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Shady said:

In your opinion.  Unfortunately, these opinions aren’t based in any science.  Apparently one won’t get covid if they need an abortion.  But they will get covid if they need a colonoscopy.   Everyone can go to Walmart and won’t get covid.  But if you go to church or a family owned business, you will.   You won’t get covid buying alcohol or lottery tickets.  But you will get covid if you’re buying a television.  Marijuana dispensaries are deemed essential even though they’ve only been in existence for a couple of years, but a family owned business that’s been in existence for 20 or 30 years is non-essential.  Because apparently you can’t get covid from buying pot.  But you can get covid from the latter.  Don’t you see how ridiculous and absurd this stuff is?   Even you must see it.  It’s completely arbitrary.  That’s why having everything open but practicing mitigation and distancing guidelines is the only real solution.

It's not just an opinion.  Groceries are essential, and churches are not. 

I'm sure many of your other points are completely valid.  They still don't make churches essential.