Jump to content

The case for a mandatory tracking app


Argus

Recommended Posts

19 hours ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

Argus, you want to open and without any conscience of the fact, a big Pandora Box that will be impossible to shut after.

If I wanted to open without any conscience I wouldn't care about contact tracing because I wouldn't care who got hurt by that. Apparently basic logic - like intelligence - eludes you.

19 hours ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

You are a traitor to the general population and to your own principles. You should feel ashamed of yourself, and you have a despicable opinion on this matter.

You are an idiot. Go suck in the air in your polluted province and fart it out into your glorious separatist leaders' faces.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, ProudConservative said:

He's only crazy because he knows too much. I only know a fraction of what he knows, and I can't deal with shit. It does seem like the elites they do whatever they can to keep us from reaching our full potential. If that wasn't the case, why would they allow this to go on? The poisons in our vaccines, and the additives in our food, could be there to prevent the peasants from critical thinking. They want us all dumbed-down, and conformed. They don't want powerful independent minds, or they will have a problem on their hands.

maxresdefault.thumb.jpg.8df30f72b43c72d1aeb570c8a192dbc9.jpg

Here try this just once-it is an attempt to explain to you why what you think is dangerous to you if you take it in a vaccine is not worth your fear-its your choice though what you will choose to fear or believe. When someone explains to me a government app that can be safe I will listen..until then I err on the side of caution...in your case I understand your fear but I am suggesting you may have sufficient info to counter that fear more then I have right now with apps...both of us though should be critical and that means not blocking out what you or I may disagree with...changes for the better  often like changes for the worse, face resistance-I concede fear is not necessarily the greatest way to make a decision at all times.

https://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/blog/top-vaccine-concerns-and-why-we-shouldnt-worry-about-them

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/patient-ed/conversations/downloads/vacsafe-thimerosal-color-office.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Rue
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, dialamah said:

Rather than government monitoring our movements, individuals can do what is necessary to keep themselves and others safe. 

No, they actually can't. There is a lot of confusion about how far air can carry this virus when someone coughs or sneezes. And you can't always maintain social distance. Aircraft, for example,. don't allow for social distancing. You can catch it from the guy two rows back. Wouldn't it be good to know, a couple of days after a flight, that the guy two rows back just tested positive so you could maybe go and get tested yourself?

The more we open up the less social distance can be maintained. We can't have restaurants and bars and health clubs and stores  operating at one quarter capacity forever. They'll all go bankrupt. And we won't ever be able to open up theaters or water parks or beaches or theme parks or sports stadiums or anything else which gathers crowds together.

However, if we had fast contact tracing you would get a text a few days after that baseball game telling you that someone sitting close, or maybe the guy at the hot dog stand you visited had tested positive so maybe you should go get tested before you spread the disease around yourself.We can open up if we can immediately identify new infections and halt their spread.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Argus said:

No, they actually can't. There is a lot of confusion about how far air can carry this virus when someone coughs or sneezes. And you can't always maintain social distance. Aircraft, for example,. don't allow for social distancing. You can catch it from the guy two rows back. Wouldn't it be good to know, a couple of days after a flight, that the guy two rows back just tested positive so you could maybe go and get tested yourself?

The more we open up the less social distance can be maintained. We can't have restaurants and bars and health clubs and stores  operating at one quarter capacity forever. They'll all go bankrupt. And we won't ever be able to open up theaters or water parks or beaches or theme parks or sports stadiums or anything else which gathers crowds together.

However, if we had fast contact tracing you would get a text a few days after that baseball game telling you that someone sitting close, or maybe the guy at the hot dog stand you visited had tested positive so maybe you should go get tested before you spread the disease around yourself.We can open up if we can immediately identify new infections and halt their spread.

I can not and do not disagree with what you suggest. I just want the tracking done in a way that won't be abused for non medical reasons. I think the reality is individual rights are going to be taken away in the name of public policy, i.e., the health protection of all...so I am very very wary of that..I do concede early testing  and tracking is required in the maintenance and prevention of any illness.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Rue said:

I can not and do not disagree with what you suggest. I just want the tracking done in a way that won't be abused for non medical reasons. I think the reality is individual rights are going to be taken away in the name of public policy, i.e., the health protection of all...so I am very very wary of that..I do concede early testing  and tracking is required in the maintenance and prevention of any illness.

Rue - I recommend this podcast.

As an introduction: How would you like to live in an environment where crime was almost impossible to pull off ?  Would you give up 24 hour surveillance for it ?

These podcasts were fascinating to me:

https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/eye-sky
https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/update-eye-sky

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/10/2020 at 6:34 PM, Independent1986 said:

If an app like this becomes mandatory and people will not want to install it If I may advise the government: there is a few people on this forum that will love a job as the enforcers.

I propose @eyeballas the general and @Right To Left as the colonel. The uniform has to be red with a hammer and sickle as the emblem :) Joking, not sure if socialists and communists have a sense of humor. 

So, time to play the commie card or reds under the bed again! I don't know about eyeball, but when have I ever posted anything supporting tracking apps? Which is not communist btw, but part of the Neocon private/public partnerships that you freenterprizers love so much! But that's all that's needed for you to go on the attack and lying backstabber- rue to 2nd the opinion!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/10/2020 at 3:34 PM, Independent1986 said:

If an app like this becomes mandatory and people will not want to install it If I may advise the government: there is a few people on this forum that will love a job as the enforcers.

I propose @eyeballas the general...

I'll pass. I'd much rather have the job of enforcing the prohibition of in-camera lobbying.  To do the job justice I'll need the capacity to contact trace and administer electric corrections if lobbyists and politicians fail to maintain influence distancing regulations outside normal business hours.

Edited by eyeball
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, eyeball said:

 It's a shit show alright. Never said it wasn't. But I doubt it's as godawful as an unmitigated pandemic would be.

To be clear: no one advocates allowing an unmitigated pandemic.

We are mitigating where we don't need to (hospitals, mental and social services, etc), and are not mitigating where we need to (old age homes).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

From reddit...

It seems that people are under the impression that a contact tracing app would give the government a map or database of places you have travelled. I would not support that either but that is not how this works.

A contact tracing app would actually work by phones communicating with eachother where ever you go. This stores a list of encryped keys on your phone that represents all the phones that have been within say 15m of yours. Keys that are more than 14 days old are purged so that it is a rolling list of your potential contacts. There is no way for anybody to look at the list and discern any information about where you have been or what you were doing. If you test positive for the virus then a push notification is sent through the app to all the people on your list to notify them to get tested because there is a chance they were near you at some time in the last 14 days. The keys are encrypted so there is no way for anyone to know who is being contacted or if you are being contacted who the person was who tested positive. If you get a notification you go and get tested and potentially more notifications go out. This allows every person who may have been infected to be tested which tracks and stops assymptomatic transmission and is the only reliable way to stop the spread. Remember, all of this happens without anyone collecting data specific to you or actually tracking your location. To further ensure personal liberty, some safe guards can also be put in place similar to those under the emergency measures acts and very clearly limit its use to public health crises.

We know that this works to save lives and minimizes the impact of a pandemic on the economy and it does not actually restrict freedoms. We should have had this already (it would have saved thousands of lives and 10s of thousands of jobs) but we need to use this pandemic as a learning experience in case something comes along that is as contagious as covid-19 but as lethal as MERS. Our current method of imperfect adherence to social distancing and contact tracing by interview won't cut it in that scenario.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

39 minutes ago, Argus said:

From reddit...

It seems that people are under the impression that a contact tracing app would give the government a map or database of places you have travelled. I would not support that either but that is not how this works.

A contact tracing app would actually work by phones communicating with eachother where ever you go. This stores a list of encryped keys on your phone that represents all the phones that have been within say 15m of yours. Keys that are more than 14 days old are purged so that it is a rolling list of your potential contacts. There is no way for anybody to look at the list and discern any information about where you have been or what you were doing. If you test positive for the virus then a push notification is sent through the app to all the people on your list to notify them to get tested because there is a chance they were near you at some time in the last 14 days. The keys are encrypted so there is no way for anyone to know who is being contacted or if you are being contacted who the person was who tested positive. If you get a notification you go and get tested and potentially more notifications go out. This allows every person who may have been infected to be tested which tracks and stops assymptomatic transmission and is the only reliable way to stop the spread. Remember, all of this happens without anyone collecting data specific to you or actually tracking your location. To further ensure personal liberty, some safe guards can also be put in place similar to those under the emergency measures acts and very clearly limit its use to public health crises.

We know that this works to save lives and minimizes the impact of a pandemic on the economy and it does not actually restrict freedoms. We should have had this already (it would have saved thousands of lives and 10s of thousands of jobs) but we need to use this pandemic as a learning experience in case something comes along that is as contagious as covid-19 but as lethal as MERS. Our current method of imperfect adherence to social distancing and contact tracing by interview won't cut it in that scenario.

Sure... and if you believe that, you'll buy this Gucci watch that I got for a great price while in Hong Kong. They said it was authentic...   100%

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Argus said:

From reddit...

It seems that people are under the impression that a contact tracing app would give the government a map or database of places you have travelled. I would not support that either but that is not how this works.

A contact tracing app would actually work by phones communicating with eachother where ever you go. This stores a list of encryped keys on your phone that represents all the phones that have been within say 15m of yours. Keys that are more than 14 days old are purged so that it is a rolling list of your potential contacts. There is no way for anybody to look at the list and discern any information about where you have been or what you were doing. If you test positive for the virus then a push notification is sent through the app to all the people on your list to notify them to get tested because there is a chance they were near you at some time in the last 14 days. The keys are encrypted so there is no way for anyone to know who is being contacted or if you are being contacted who the person was who tested positive. If you get a notification you go and get tested and potentially more notifications go out. This allows every person who may have been infected to be tested which tracks and stops assymptomatic transmission and is the only reliable way to stop the spread. Remember, all of this happens without anyone collecting data specific to you or actually tracking your location. To further ensure personal liberty, some safe guards can also be put in place similar to those under the emergency measures acts and very clearly limit its use to public health crises.

We know that this works to save lives and minimizes the impact of a pandemic on the economy and it does not actually restrict freedoms. We should have had this already (it would have saved thousands of lives and 10s of thousands of jobs) but we need to use this pandemic as a learning experience in case something comes along that is as contagious as covid-19 but as lethal as MERS. Our current method of imperfect adherence to social distancing and contact tracing by interview won't cut it in that scenario.

Dumb move. In you citing a vital Dem internet-propaganda mechanism, like Reddit...as you continue to think readers here forgot what I exposed about you/why you are here vehemently promoting Globalism's app:

https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/israel/2020/march/israel-approves-mass-surveillance-on-civilian-phones-to-track-coronavirus

Edited by Tdot
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote

Israel’s Shin Bet security agency, which is responsible for tracking and hunting down terrorists, will collect information from people’s cellphones and deliver that information to the Health Ministry.

The Shin Bet will be able to track the movements of those found to be carriers of the virus to ensure they are abiding by quarantine laws and see who they interacted with. The agency will send a message to people who were close to those with the virus telling them they too need to go into quarantine, The Times of Israel reported.

Shin Bet Director Nadav Argaman issued a statement on Tuesday saying his agency will not hold on to any of the information and there will be limits on the surveillance technology but did not specify the limits.

Shin Bet will be allowed to access the country’s cell phone data for 30 days ( ;) ). Those caught violating quarantine will be dealt with by the police, not the Shin Bet.

While many are concerned about the Israeli government having access to each citizen’s phone, Transportation Minister Bezalel Smotrich said on Twitter “there isn’t and won’t be a ‘Big Brother’ in the State of Israel. .

However, some Israeli legal experts aren’t convinced.

Attorney Avner Pinchuk, of the Association for Civil Rights in Israel, said in a statement that the benefit gained by tracking the disease in this manner “does not justify the severe infringement of the right to privacy. The danger of COVID-19 is not only the virus itself, but the fear that as part of the efforts to overcome the danger, we will also lose our basic values as a free and democratic society.”

Netanyahu is framing the fight against the coronavirus as a “war” against “an invisible enemy.”

As of Tuesday morning, 304 people have been diagnosed with the coronavirus. Four patients are in critical condition, 11 are moderate, and the rest are mild cases.  

The Health Ministry said on Monday it was considering increasing restrictions and putting the entirety of Israel on lockdown.

“We may ask people to leave the house less, and only for necessary errands. The government is considering a general closure on all citizens, and if that happens it would mean all age groups will be asked to stay home until further notice,” the ministry’s Deputy Director General Itamar Grotto, said Monday...

 

:)

Edited by Tdot
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/10/2020 at 9:54 AM, Argus said:

I have thought for some time that our tracking is abysmal, and responsible for most of the new cases we're getting outside elderly care homes. If we're going to open up again we need something which will immediately track new cases and warn those exposed to get tested. So far the government has come up with nothing. A contact tracking app makes sense in the short term until we get a vaccine. Privacy concerns are secondary to the point of being tertiary compared to getting the economy moving and saving lives.

“Stay home: Save lives” is the message promoted by New Zealand’s prime minister Jacinda Ardern, the Western leader whose response to COVID-19 has been among the most successful. The secret of this success? Ardern also adopted an approach of “Go hard: Go early” and has consequently suffered far fewer fatalities per capita than countries that dithered or delayed imposing restrictions. But minimizing the butcher’s bill runs up the banker’s bill, and the banker’s bill is growing. As soon as the relevant offices emerge from lockdown, there will be insolvencies and liquidations. Some businesses will not re-open at all. The longer lockdown continues, the greater the number of businesses forced to close, and the more jobs lost. To avert widespread economic collapse, governments have been handing out wage subsidies and bail-outs to keep businesses afloat.

Extraordinary circumstances call for extraordinary policy measures. If there is a way to reduce both the butcher’s bill and the banker’s bill, then governments are justified in mandating it. Recently, an Oxford team published a paper in Science which found that the spread of COVID-19 was “too fast to be contained by manual contact tracing but could be controlled if this process was faster, more efficient and happened at scale.” The authors therefore make the case for a contact tracing app. Its main feature would be to store data on proximity contacts and sound an alarm if a contact has been tagged as testing positive.

 

https://quillette.com/2020/05/07/the-case-for-a-mandatory-covid-19-app/

   Yes we should chip all the children as they are born so we can know every move they make because the worst thing possible is if they read and become educated , my God then they could be able to think for themselves and have real thoughts and ideas which we all know are bad things and worst of all what if they become so educated that they hold different thoughts and are able to debate on many subjects. Please hurry and start the tracking now.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, sillywalker said:

   Yes we should chip all the children as they are born so we can know every move they make because the worst thing possible is if they read and become educated , my God then they could be able to think for themselves and have real thoughts and ideas which we all know are bad things and worst of all what if they become so educated that they hold different thoughts and are able to debate on many subjects. Please hurry and start the tracking now.

Yeah, if they start to think for themselves they might show a lack of respect to a flag.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Rue - I recommend this podcast.

As an introduction: How would you like to live in an environment where crime was almost impossible to pull off ?  Would you give up 24 hour surveillance for it ?

These podcasts were fascinating to me:

https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/eye-sky
https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/update-eye-sky

Thanks Mikey

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, sillywalker said:

   Yes we should chip all the children as they are born so we can know every move they make because the worst thing possible is if they read and become educated , my God then they could be able to think for themselves and have real thoughts and ideas which we all know are bad things and worst of all what if they become so educated that they hold different thoughts and are able to debate on many subjects. Please hurry and start the tracking now.

Once you tattoo someone you can't always erase it. I have to share your concern about big brother control.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, sillywalker said:

   Yes we should chip all the children as they are born so we can know every move they make because the worst thing possible is if they read and become educated , my God then they could be able to think for themselves and have real thoughts and ideas which we all know are bad things and worst of all what if they become so educated that they hold different thoughts and are able to debate on many subjects.

Evidently none of that happened to you. Not only is this an infantile rant without a shred of intelligence or common sense but it doesn't show much in the way of education, punctuation or grammar. Learn to put a period in now and then Bubba.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Someone get back to me with an early detection and tracking plan that does not compromise privacy and fundamental freedoms please.

I think we do a good job with sexually transmitted diseases, aids,  breast, colon and prostate cancer early detection testing and tracking.   No apps used there.

I know Israel, Taiwan, Singapore, South Korea use apps to track disease but their people have different histories and cultural values that cause them to have had to live with a constant threat to their existence .

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, Rue said:

Someone get back to me with an early detection and tracking plan that does not compromise privacy and fundamental freedoms please.

I think we do a good job with sexually transmitted diseases, aids,  breast, colon and prostate cancer early detection testing and tracking.   No apps used there.

I know Israel, Taiwan, Singapore, South Korea use apps to track disease but their people have different histories and cultural values that cause them to have had to live with a constant threat to their existence .

 

Screening programs are generally directed at diseases that take years to develop. We’re facing a deadly pandemic that threatens the existence of many of us. Why shouldn’t we use tools that have been successful elsewhere? 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-52579475

Privacy and fundamental freedoms don’t matter too much if you’re dead. 

 

 

Edited by SpankyMcFarland
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

an introduction: How would you like to live in an environment where crime was almost impossible to pull off ?  

Or, how would you like to live in an environment where holding government accountable through protest, activism and grassroots reforms are impossible to pull off.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Rue said:

Someone get back to me with an early detection and tracking plan that does not compromise privacy and fundamental freedoms please

I've been getting back to you with an early detection and tracking plan that does exactly that for years now Rue. I've told you about outlawing in-camera lobbying and other souveillance measures many times across a broad spectrum of issues all with the same intent - total public awareness, to prevent governments from discussing, planning or developing policies and measures that impact or compromise the public's stake in things like our fundamental freedoms for example.

The trick is to compromise the government's fundamental expectations of secrecy. Still don't get it?  Oh well, I get that a lot, the audaciousness of making our betters bend to our will seems so shocking to people it triggers the most bizarre responses...I mean take Shady for example he gets what I'm talking about so badly he thinks I'm attacking his right to free speech. Maybe he's a lobbyist, I just don't know.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Or, how would you like to live in an environment where holding government accountable through protest, activism and grassroots reforms are impossible to pull off.

These means will always be important but they're all too often insufficient not to mention inefficient especially compared to a more direct method of holding governments accountable with the sort of technology they intend for us. In terms of efficiency I'd suggest it will be a lot less expensive to monitor a mere handful of people at the very top of society than to keep an eye on millions.  Call it trickle down theory of decency and honesty - make it virtually impossible to act dishonestly or indecently at the top and and watch the effect trickle down through the rest of the government.  Do this and I bet a really famous trickle down theory just might become a lot less theoretical.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, eyeball said:

In terms of efficiency I'd suggest it will be a lot less expensive to monitor a mere handful of people at the very top of society than to keep an eye on millions.

Yeah sure, that would be wonderful but its not happening. The hand does not cut off its own head.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...