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Did Trudeau Fail His Country On Covid-19


WestCanMan
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The thread "Trudeau Government FAILED in Handling the Pandemic" was merged into this thread. 

Did Trudeau Fail His Country On Covid-19  

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51 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

OK, but in British Columbia / Vancouver Island, Kitsilano Beach, Whistler, etc. people flouted the distancing rules early and often.

I don't go to those beaches in March and April lol, this is nothing like Fla or Cali b_c, but I can assure you that going to hiking trails here was no joke. There are signs posted there saying that you get a fine if you're caught getting exercise and vitamin D in a 400 Sq km park like Pinecone Burke where it's almost impossible not to social distance. Remember, this is just a week after people were coming in on international flights and walking through our crowded airports. To say that tis whole thing was a gigantic, moronic fiasco is an understatement.

Parks are theoretically opening again on the 14th here. Finally.

 

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10 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

That's great, but the NHS has not been the differentiator for COVID-19 deaths in the UK compared to America.   Italy also has a national single payer health insurance program....still not so good.   Michael Bloomberg bragged about his health care initiatives in New York City....still didn't matter, because other relevant factors are in play.

My point was that an overwhelmed public healthcare system isn't going to perform any better than a private system that screens patients on the basis of ability to pay. 

So, what about the success stories!  How did China beat their outbreak? What about Vietnam, which has scant few cases left and may be the only country that recorded zero fatalities from the disease.  South Korea has beat back the pandemic very well also....problem now is people going crazy now that most of the restrictions have been lifted....such as earlier reports today that SK authorities feared an outbreak was underway that may have been caused by some young partiers who went out from bar to tavern on a pub crawl Thursday or Friday night. So, they might have a setback. 

But, it will likely only be temporary, since they are able to quickly mobilize teams to detect any infected people and trace all of their contacts for testing and quarantining if necessary. THIS seems to be the problem in the US! Even more than using a piss-poor for profit healthcare system, trying to get Americans to put community interest ahead of personal desires is almost a non-starter! So, you may be having problems for a long time to come!

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1 hour ago, Right To Left said:

My point was that an overwhelmed public healthcare system isn't going to perform any better than a private system that screens patients on the basis of ability to pay.

 

Well, there is also evidence that the overwhelmed public healthcare system can perform worse, particularly when occupancy rates and resources were already stressed before the pandemic started.

 

Quote

But, it will likely only be temporary, since they are able to quickly mobilize teams to detect any infected people and trace all of their contacts for testing and quarantining if necessary. THIS seems to be the problem in the US! Even more than using a piss-poor for profit healthcare system, trying to get Americans to put community interest ahead of personal desires is almost a non-starter! So, you may be having problems for a long time to come!

 

The US is doing about the same as Canada absent New York's early bungling and case counts.   California (larger population/smaller area)  is actually doing better than Canada.   Canada is also the worst among many nations for death rates in long term care settings.

 

 

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6 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Well, there is also evidence that the overwhelmed public healthcare system can perform worse, particularly when occupancy rates and resources were already stressed before the pandemic started.

The US is doing about the same as Canada absent New York's early bungling and case counts.   California (larger population/smaller area)  is actually doing better than Canada.   Canada is also the worst among many nations for death rates in long term care settings.

Raw case rates and totals are complicated by testing rates and population size, so I look at deaths per million population for comparisons across jurisdictions.

The US has about double the death rate (per million) of Canada, not the same. 

As of Yesterday, May 9 2020 ... 

USA   242 deaths per million 

Canada 124

Calif   68 (well below US overall) 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

And if you're comparing US to Canada by taking out NYC (2300 deaths per million), we're taking out Montreal (660 deaths per million).

Deaths easier to identify than cases, and COVID deaths are relatively easy to distinguish from other deaths, whether by 1) lab test, 2) CT lung scan, and/or 3) Doctors' diagnosis.* Bungling the numbers is less of a factor in these comparisons. 

* Note that the uninformed conspiracy video simpletons  claiming over-identification of COVID deaths are wrong in saying that a lab test is the only reliable way to diagnose COVID: A lung scan and doctor's diagnosis is much more reliable than test results. Why? Anecdotally, in Montreal, for example, cases of peoples' swabs sat in Public Health Nurses' trunks too long, before they could deliver them to labs, and all were negative - ie,  the virus degraded and disappeared in the samples before it could be identified. That's just one of the vulnerabilities of "lab tests". Doctors' diagnoses are preferable, and Covid deaths can be confirmed after death as well.*

So you're promoting a falsehood here, bush_cheney. USA private health care is not doing as well as Canadian public health care. Montreal was overwhelmed, but mostly by long term care cases. Elsewhere, hospitals were able to clear enough beds to address hospitalized cases very well. 

No country has done well in Long Term Care. That is the common failing of all systems. Elders dying excruciating deaths with no family support, elders still living in fear in locked down Covid-ridden facilities ... with no oversight, and no family support. All are dying at rates higher than normal due to neglect or just loss of will to live, without family contact. 

In Ontario ... questions have to be asked about privatized for-profit long term care facilities, some of which gutted all medical systems and staffing for pandemic plans/preparations to increase profits and shareholder dividends. A public inquiry is being demanded. It appears to be the same in Quebec, and across the country: 80% of Canada's deaths are from Long Term Care homes, the part of our system that has been most heavily privatized. 

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/no-easy-fix-for-long-term-care-home-problems-highlighted-by-covid-19-1.4932175

Edited by jacee
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7 hours ago, Right To Left said:

My point was that an overwhelmed public healthcare system isn't going to perform any better than a private system that screens patients on the basis of ability to pay. 

So, what about the success stories!  How did China beat their outbreak? What about Vietnam, which has scant few cases left and may be the only country that recorded zero fatalities from the disease.  South Korea has beat back the pandemic very well also....problem now is people going crazy now that most of the restrictions have been lifted....such as earlier reports today that SK authorities feared an outbreak was underway that may have been caused by some young partiers who went out from bar to tavern on a pub crawl Thursday or Friday night. So, they might have a setback. 

But, it will likely only be temporary, since they are able to quickly mobilize teams to detect any infected people and trace all of their contacts for testing and quarantining if necessary. THIS seems to be the problem in the US! Even more than using a piss-poor for profit healthcare system, trying to get Americans to put community interest ahead of personal desires is almost a non-starter! So, you may be having problems for a long time to come!

You are inhaling too many Cocoa Puffs. China has not beaten any virus. You know nothing about how the virus is impacting on Vietnam or the rest of Asia. South Korea  has not beaten any pandemic, it has controlled its management. 

You need to get out of that bubble. You make a hell of a lot of assumptions without any facts assuming what you read on the internet passes as sufficient evidence. Either that or you make it up. 

Covid 19 is a virus. It hasn't been defeated. At best it can be managed. The only way it is "defeated" is with a vaccine or it mutates to a less lethal form. Necessarily it can only be managed and even then due its lack of consistent presentation with symptoms, often undetectable, it is spread to others who continue to pass it on. The only time it becomes known is if someone is sick enough to report it. Even then it may itself be coincidental with other preexisting medical conditions that cause death or complications, or it causes the body to clot blood in arteries and other veins which lead to complications including death.

Go read up. The only thing China has done is shut down the media to hide its numbers. You might also while you are at it research henta virus, even more deadly than Covid 19 and another Chinese originated virus that is far more lethal and whose rates has been repressed from disclosure in China. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Rue said:

Go read up. The only thing China has done is shut down the media to hide its numbers. You might also while you are at it research henta virus, even more deadly than Covid 19 and another Chinese originated virus that is far more lethal and whose rates has been repressed from disclosure in China. 

 

 

I know someone that has relatives in Shanghai, they are so many people infected in the city yet China yesterday, for example, reported in the whole country: 1 infected, 0 dead :rolleyes:

"There is no crime or problems in a country that is lead by a communist party" :ph34r:

Edited by Independent1986
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1 hour ago, Independent1986 said:

I know someone that has relatives in Shanghai, they are so many people infected in the city yet China yesterday, for example, reported in the whole country: 1 infected, 0 dead :rolleyes:

"There is no crime or problems in a country that is lead by a communist party" :ph34r:

I swear some days I feel like some people on this board are recycled Pravda  journalists .. Covid 19 is just another capitalist created disease.  You do realize no Russian  or Chinese ever gets syphilis unless it came from the West.

Ah the good old days, Pravda, Sputnik news, when men were men and the KGB could be smelled miles away with those stinky cigarettes. Ah the good old days of  pale skinned vodka smelling trench coated men that looked like little toads, coming  late at night in Moskvitch cars. What would the world have been without the Stasi,  AVH,  STB,  UB, Securitate,  SANS/Service 7,  and Cheka-KGB.  I mean come on that's the beauty of communism. All those initials.

You ask me Covid 19 sounds like the name of a secret state security agency.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Rue said:

I swear some days I feel like some people on this board are old Pravda  journalists .. Ah the good old days, Pravda, Sputnik news, when men were men and the KGB could be smelled miles away with those stinky cigarettes. Ah the good old days of  pale skinned vodka smelling trench coated men that looked like little toads, coming  late at night in Moskvitch cars. What would the world have been without the Stasi,  AVH,  STB,  UB, Securitate,  SANS/Service 7,  and Cheka-KGB.  I mean come on that's the beauty of communism. All those initials.

You remember the good old days. Absolute freedom. People were happy. The factories rang out with people singing. I mean come on Leonid Breshnev's eyebrows were inspiring. Andrei Gromyko, now there was a cheery man. I used to love the May day parades and those guys all standing there waving at the goose stepping soldiers and missiles. Those were the days.  I mean we still have Russia, China and North Korea holding parades but it just aint the same. I mean come on. Russia is now led by a transgender female to male (Vladimir Putin).  You would never have that in the olden days. Now mind you most Russian women do have mustaches come to think of it but in the old days they used to place electric tape on their upper lips and chins and yank out the hair today they just have surgical operations.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I heard stories from my family when Ceausescu used to visit the factories he used to "motivate" by saying: "Work, work tovaras, we are socialist now, our goal is to reach true communism" (Romania was called The Socialist Republic).

The clapping, the smiles like come on how can you disagree with that ? You must be a fascist if you don't clap in which case the securitatea was waiting outside for 1 way trip to a 5 star vacation.

Edited by Independent1986
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4 hours ago, jacee said:

So you're promoting a falsehood here, bush_cheney. USA private health care is not doing as well as Canadian public health care. Montreal was overwhelmed, but mostly by long term care cases. Elsewhere, hospitals were able to clear enough beds to address hospitalized cases very well.

 

No I am not...Canadian media has reported the same...and it is not just about health care.

 

Quote

No country has done well in Long Term Care. That is the common failing of all systems. Elders dying excruciating deaths with no family support, elders still living in fear in locked down Covid-ridden facilities ... with no oversight, and no family support. All are dying at rates higher than normal due to neglect or just loss of will to live, without family contact.

 

True, but Canada has done worse for death rates in long term care settings.

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 I live in Calgary and up to the first of may ( I can not speak for the last two weeks ) Flights were arriving from all points and people were not being tested at all they were just given a piece of paper with the symptoms listed and told to seek a doctors treatment if they get any of them? what the hell is that really shutting down the country? Here is the bigger question . When has this idiot Prime Minister ever not failed the people?

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1 hour ago, sillywalker said:

 I live in Calgary and up to the first of may ( I can not speak for the last two weeks ) Flights were arriving from all points and people were not being tested at all they were just given a piece of paper with the symptoms listed and told to seek a doctors treatment if they get any of them? what the hell is that really shutting down the country? Here is the bigger question . When has this idiot Prime Minister ever not failed the people?

We're getting lied to six ways from Sunday about covid, and the fact that our government still blindly supports the WHO is just embarrassing.

If the WHO had a firefighting counterpart called the WFO they'd be telling us to store open gas cans in our homes and not to leave the house if there's a fire. 

 

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Canada is 11th in the world in total deaths now. 5,000 covid deaths. We have more than China.

39th in population, 187th in population density, but only 10 countries have more covid deaths than we do.

Is it possible that leaving our borders open and telling Canadians not to wear masks was the wrong strategy? At what point do Canadians start to realize that Trudeau's stupidity cost us dearly, yet again? 

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I find it fascinating how the personality flaws of both Trump and Trudeau have led to people around them getting COVID.  Trump & co. with their arrogance/ignorance, and the Trudeau's with their naive openness/globalism.  Adapt or die.  I love how COVID is showing all the BS for what it is:  BS.

You hang on to irrational notions during an emergency and it will cut you down.

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On 5/10/2020 at 8:58 AM, jacee said:

Raw case rates and totals are complicated by testing rates and population size, so I look at deaths per million population for comparisons across jurisdictions.

The US has about double the death rate (per million) of Canada, not the same. 

As of Yesterday, May 9 2020 ... 

USA   242 deaths per million 

Canada 124

Calif   68 (well below US overall) 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

And if you're comparing US to Canada by taking out NYC (2300 deaths per million), we're taking out Montreal (660 deaths per million).

Deaths easier to identify than cases, and COVID deaths are relatively easy to distinguish from other deaths, whether by 1) lab test, 2) CT lung scan, and/or 3) Doctors' diagnosis.* Bungling the numbers is less of a factor in these comparisons. 

* Note that the uninformed conspiracy video simpletons  claiming over-identification of COVID deaths are wrong in saying that a lab test is the only reliable way to diagnose COVID: A lung scan and doctor's diagnosis is much more reliable than test results. Why? Anecdotally, in Montreal, for example, cases of peoples' swabs sat in Public Health Nurses' trunks too long, before they could deliver them to labs, and all were negative - ie,  the virus degraded and disappeared in the samples before it could be identified. That's just one of the vulnerabilities of "lab tests". Doctors' diagnoses are preferable, and Covid deaths can be confirmed after death as well.*

So you're promoting a falsehood here, bush_cheney. USA private health care is not doing as well as Canadian public health care. Montreal was overwhelmed, but mostly by long term care cases. Elsewhere, hospitals were able to clear enough beds to address hospitalized cases very well. 

No country has done well in Long Term Care. That is the common failing of all systems. Elders dying excruciating deaths with no family support, elders still living in fear in locked down Covid-ridden facilities ... with no oversight, and no family support. All are dying at rates higher than normal due to neglect or just loss of will to live, without family contact. 

In Ontario ... questions have to be asked about privatized for-profit long term care facilities, some of which gutted all medical systems and staffing for pandemic plans/preparations to increase profits and shareholder dividends. A public inquiry is being demanded. It appears to be the same in Quebec, and across the country: 80% of Canada's deaths are from Long Term Care homes, the part of our system that has been most heavily privatized. 

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/no-easy-fix-for-long-term-care-home-problems-highlighted-by-covid-19-1.4932175

Without New York it's 117 per million, about what ours is.  But New York messed everything up.  Their governor and mayor have been horrible.

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26 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I find it fascinating how the personality flaws of both Trump and Trudeau have led to people around them getting COVID.  Trump & co. with their arrogance/ignorance, and the Trudeau's with their naive openness/globalism.  Adapt or die.  I love how COVID is showing all the BS for what it is:  BS.

You hang on to irrational notions during an emergency and it will cut you down.

The cracks in the system and the lack of integrity of our leaders are showing during this crisis. And it's not looking very good for them.

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On 5/10/2020 at 9:31 AM, Rue said:

Go read up. The only thing China has done is shut down the media to hide its numbers. You might also while you are at it research henta virus, even more deadly than Covid 19 and another Chinese originated virus that is far more lethal and whose rates has been repressed from disclosure in China.

The Chinese authorities barricaded up apartments holding people inside with absolutely no way out. Their numbers simply don't add up, and that was obvious back in January. The Chinese government put 2/3s of their population into lockdown.

Police were beating people in the streets if they suspected you had the virus or was from an infected area. Using drones to patrol areas and telling people to put the mask on or risk arrest.

The CCP did a lot more than just hiding the numbers. They have used this to completely take over the legislation in Honk Kong. Pro democracy supporters were dragged out after they were beaten up during session.  China will use this virus to completely take over Hong Kong and bring in communism. China will then have completely taken over a destroyed Hong Kong.

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2 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

Canada is 11th in the world in total deaths now. 5,000 covid deaths. We have more than China.

You don't really believe China is reporting its deaths, do you?

2 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

39th in population, 187th in population density, but only 10 countries have more covid deaths than we do.

How do you know that? A lot of countries are doing little or no testing, and when people die they're simply recording it as heart failure, or pneumonia, or whatever. That's assuming they record deaths at all. A lot of third world countries are pretty slack about that.

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On 5/10/2020 at 1:13 PM, bush_cheney2004 said:

True, but Canada has done worse for death rates in long term care settings.

Or it's just recording and reporting them more than other jurisdictions...

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1 hour ago, Shady said:

Without New York it's 117 per million, about what ours is.  But New York messed everything up.  Their governor and mayor have been horrible.

You could say the same about Montreal. Without Montreal our rate would be halved.

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1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I find it fascinating how the personality flaws of both Trump and Trudeau have led to people around them getting COVID.  Trump & co. with their arrogance/ignorance, and the Trudeau's with their naive openness/globalism.  Adapt or die.  I love how COVID is showing all the BS for what it is:  BS.

Or here's another take on it. Lots' of people are getting it everywhere. Trump et al, and all world leaders, are getting tested daily. Have you or your family, friends had one? I haven't. I don't know anyone who has.

I may have had it, who knows. I had a headache about two weeks ago, but it passed in a day. If I hadn't heard of the coronavirus, I would not have thought much of it. Could have just been a bit of un-digested potato.

Edited by OftenWrong
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43 minutes ago, Argus said:

You don't really believe China is reporting its deaths, do you?

How do you know that? A lot of countries are doing little or no testing, and when people die they're simply recording it as heart failure, or pneumonia, or whatever. That's assuming they record deaths at all. A lot of third world countries are pretty slack about that.

I'm the one questioning the WHO's advice, which caused the deaths of tens of thousands of people. I'm the one questioning where the virus in Wuhan actually came from, why it got out, why the Chinese covered it up, why the WHO followed their marching orders, etc.

All you wussies who just base the level of truth in a subject on how incriminating it for the POTUS don't get to suddenly start questioning China now that it's convenient.

From your POV, the virus cams from a bat in a wet market and the Chinese were the world's happy allies in fighting the virus, and they just had 4K deaths. That's it, you can't have it both ways.

But FWIW, it's entirely possible that only 4K people died in China from Covid if they knew it was going to come out. They certainly did a good enough job of protecting Shanghai and Beijing. And honestly, the way that covid spreads, and the fact that so many people are unknowing carriers of the virus, and how so many people have basic/minor symptoms, it's completely shocking that the virus didn't break out all over China before they discovered how bad it was. Yeah 4K deaths is a very real possibility. 

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23 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Russia has 3x the cases as Canada but only 2000 deaths.  What a load of lies.

Numbers coming out of dictatorships can't be trusted.

1) Maybe vodka kills covid lol. 

2) Covid numbers coming out of Canada are no more reliable than the numbers coming from China, Russia or anywhere else.

If you took 200 Dr Fords from Berkeley, put 100 in Canada and 100 in the US, and they recorded 1,000 deaths in each country, how many times would the Dr Fords in the US record a death as Covid under a right-wing government? How many would they record deaths as being covid-related under an alt-left government in Canada?

Fact is that most covid-related deaths are among people with two or more co-morbidities anyways, and a lot of them were already walking on the edge of their graves. You basically have 3 or more options to choose from as the cause of death in a LOT of instances. A true Dr Ford wouldn't put a checkmark where it hurts Trudeau if they didn't absolutely have to, and they'd never miss a chance to put a checkmark where it hurts Trump even if they know it doesn't really belong there. My guess is that if you had the exact same people die of the exact same causes in each environment, you get 400 covid deaths recorded by the Dr Fords in the US grp and 70 recorded covid fatalities by the Dr Fords in the Canada grp. It's the age of misinformation.  

Canada's covid numbers are just what a bunch of individuals want them to be. That's it. A lot of it's random.

I believe that covid is responsible in a lot of the care homes, where they can't just act like 69 people all randomly died in 2 weeks, but I also wonder how many times a seasonal flu kills 50 people in a care home and we just never hear about it. 30? 20? Shall we guess? 

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2 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

2) Covid numbers coming out of Canada are no more reliable than the numbers coming from China, Russia or anywhere else.

Oh come on dude.  The government isn't at the hospital in Canada determining the cause of death, it's the doctors.  Doctors aren't as political.  In dictatorships the government has total control and can release, change, or not release whatever they want.

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4 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Oh come on dude.  The government isn't at the hospital in Canada determining the cause of death, it's the doctors.  Doctors aren't as political.  In dictatorships the government has total control and can release, change, or not release whatever they want.

I don’t have any more reason to trust Trudeau or our public health minister than I trust Putin. Do you? At least Putin hasn’t let terrorists or pandemics into our country intentionally. 

Trudeau, Tam and Hajdu are all openly supportive of the WHO. Alarm bells?

The only way that the world will ever recognize the WHO as a positive contributor to fighting this pandemic is if China conquers the globe and writes up history in whatever way they see fit. 

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