Trump Vs Trudeau on Coronavirus

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

It banned foreigners. No one can ban their own citizens from returning.

Then no one can ban the virus.

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They already had the false sense of security and piss poor execution. Not banning foreign travel would have improved neither of these things.

Banning the virus is the only thing that would do that.

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The piss-poor execution might have happened but the feds weren't responsible for testing. We've certainly been just as bad as your cite says the Americans are at screening those Canadians returning from China or Iran or the US.

Not according to the results on the ground.  Infection and death rates are lower everywhere that followed the advice to not institute bans.  Speaking for myself I know I was wondering why people were being allowed to fly around the world they way they were too. In the perfection of hindsight I realize now that knowing people were still coming made me take physical distancing more seriously and earlier than many many people seemed to be taking elsewhere.

The last thing I was prepared to do is trust that governments had things under control and wait for further instructions without a grain of salt - a bag of rock salt is more like it.

[OftenWrong]

25 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Infection and death rates are lower everywhere that followed the advice to not institute bans.  Speaking for myself

Once again you’ve managed to put the cart before the horse. That figures.

Do the have more infections because they instituted the bans, or did they implement them because they have so much traffic coming in from infected areas, hence they have more infections.

[Argus]

59 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Then no one can ban the virus.

The more people with the virus you ban, the better off you are.

59 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Not according to the results on the ground.  Infection and death rates are lower everywhere that followed the advice to not institute bans. 

You mean like Taiwan? Australia?

[eyeball]

46 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Once again you’ve managed to put the cart before the horse. That figures.

Trudeau is not a cart but Trump is an Elephant. 

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Do the have more infections because they instituted the bans,

 Apparently according to the reasons that guided experts to advise against them and of course results on the ground. 

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or did they implement them because they have so much traffic coming in from infected areas, hence they have more infections.

I think they implemented them because they thought they knew better than the experts. I suspect the experts probably also had a better sense of just how piss poor the aforementioned execution would be.

But if you're right you should be able to quantify your excuse, perhaps not now but in hindsight in the future when there's more time to think about what happened.  Similarly those who are positive there is a metric by which it can be shown more deaths were caused by not following expert advise will also have to wait for the power of hindsight to prove it

In the meantime allow me to make a prediction, the urge to cast political blame will still be with us and the harder data that does follow in the light of hindsight and expert analysis won't matter a bit.

Edited April 6, 2020 by eyeball

[eyeball]

17 minutes ago, Argus said:

The more people with the virus you ban, the better off you are.

Seems commonsensical doesn't it?  Too bad the sense of listening to experts isn't more common they seem to have known better.

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You mean like Taiwan? Australia?

Interesting comparison given this story posted just today.

 

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Hong Kong (CNN)On January 25, as the world was still waking up to the potential danger of the novel coronavirus spreading rapidly out of central China, two governments recorded four new infections within their territory.

Australia and Taiwan have similar sized populations of about 24 million people, both are islands, allowing strict controls over who crosses their borders, and both have strong trade and transport links with mainland China. Ten weeks on from that date, however, Australia has almost 5,000 confirmed cases, while Taiwan has less than 400.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/04/asia/taiwan-coronavirus-response-who-intl-hnk/index.html

 

I'm betting the lack of relations between Taiwan and China preceding this had a lot more to do with their ability to prevent it coming in. As for Australia did they ban people from everywhere?  Isn't that what would have actually banned the virus? Halting all travel everywhere at the same time for the same prearranged pre-agreed to reasons?

Why wasn't anyone prepared for that? I'm betting there are experts who would have if they'd been put in charge. 

 

[eyeball]

As I've been saying, this virus is really good at exploiting our greatest weakness.

 

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Politics and COVID-19 make a lethal mix

Last October, a consortium of U.S. and British foundations published the Global Health Security Index, designed to assess the “state of international capability for…rapidly responding to epidemic and pandemic threats.”

While it wrongly characterized every nation as ill-prepared for a pandemic, its most spectacular forecasting failure involved labelling the U.S. and Britain as the two countries best prepared to deal with a pandemic.

That’s because the report failed to identify the key element in addressing COVID-19: political will. Success happens when political leadership is thoughtful, science-informed and forward thinking. When it’s not, all hell can break loose.

Singapore and Taiwan have been highly successful, with very low COVID-19 infection and death rates. Their leadership established robust plans years ago.

 

 

[Yzermandius19]

On 4/5/2020 at 1:13 PM, Argus said:

Donald Trump's lack of response and continuous confusion about the virus isn't exactly earning him a lot of praise. And what the hell is with putting his idiot son in law in charge?

Until now, I have generally been reluctant to label Donald Trump the worst president in U.S. history. As a historian, I know how important it is to allow the passage of time to gain a sense of perspective. Some presidents who seemed awful to contemporaries (Harry S. Truman) or simply lackluster (Dwight D. Eisenhower, George H.W. Bush) look much better in retrospect. Others, such as Thomas Jefferson and Woodrow Wilson, don’t look as good as they once did.

So I have written, as I did on March 12, that Trump is the worst president in modern times — not of all time. That left open the possibility that James Buchanan, Andrew Johnson, Franklin Pierce, Warren Harding or some other nonentity would be judged more harshly. But in the past month, we have seen enough to take away the qualifier “in modern times.” With his catastrophic mishandling of the coronavirus, Trump has established himself as the worst president in U.S. history.

The Post article is the most thorough dissection of Trump’s failure to prepare for the gathering storm. Trump was first briefed on the coronavirus by Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar on Jan. 18. But, The Post writes, “Azar told several associates that the president believed he was ‘alarmist’ and Azar struggled to get Trump’s attention to focus on the issue.” When Trump was first asked publicly about the virus, on Jan. 22, he said, “We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China.”

In the days and weeks after Azar alerted him about the virus, Trump spoke at eight rallies and golfed six times as if he didn’t have a care in the world.

Donald Trump is the worst president in history

Trump Derangement Syndrome Over 9000

Trump could have the best response ever, and the media would still claim he's the worst president ever. The assumption that the media not praising him is somehow a sign of how well he's performing is ridiculous, the Bad Orange Man could say the sky was blue and they'd say he was ruining the country.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[Yzermandius19]

18 hours ago, BubberMiley said:

The only logical explanation for his single-minded focus on that snake oil is he has some kind of stake in it and will profit from it. Of course, his supporters will coo about how entrepreneurial he was in trying to help out.

Yesterday in his infomercial about the drug, he even refused to allow Fauci to answer a question about its dangers. An obvious grift if I ever saw one.

If it's such snake oil than why did the country with the best response to the crisis use it to treat some patients with the disease? TDS Over 9000

Yeah there are some dangerous side effects to it, and more studies of how it effects patients need to be done, but to act like it isn't at least promising based on current evidence is silly.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[Boges]

4 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Yeah there are some dangerous side effects to it, and more studies of how it effects patients need to be done, but to act like it isn't at least promising based on current evidence is silly.

45 isn't nearly as eager to put the caveats you are onto the optimism for these drugs. 

He's of the opinion "What do we have to lose?". 

[Shady]

7 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Trump Derangement Syndrome Over 9000

Trump could have the best response ever, and the media would still claim he's the worst president ever. The assumption that the media not praising him is somehow a sign of how well he's performing is ridiculous, the Bad Orange Man could say the sky was blue and they'd say he was ruining the country.

I stopped listening to Max Boot when he literally started comparing Trump to Hitler.

[Shady]

7 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

If it's such snake oil than why did the country with the best response to the crisis use it to treat some patients with the disease? TDS Over 9000

Yeah there are some dangerous side effects to it, and more studies of how it effects patients need to be done, but to act like it isn't at least promising based on current evidence is silly.

Doctors have been very successful treating patients with this drug.  The mainstream media along with Democrats root again and downplay such treatment because they want the pandemic to be worse.  Because they think it will hurt Trump.  It’s more than just a Derangement now.  It’s a serious mental disease.

[Shady]

Trudeau announced today that they’re working with business to produce 30,000 ventilators.  This is good news.  

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ventilators-trudeau-1.5524581

However, TRUMP DID THIS WEEKS AGO.

But somehow people are still pushing the false narrative that Trump has done nothing and Trudeau has.  Complete and utter bullshit.

[Yzermandius19]

5 hours ago, Boges said:

45 isn't nearly as eager to put the caveats you are onto the optimism for these drugs. 

He's of the opinion "What do we have to lose?". 

I'm not a politician.

Trump wants the experts to focus on finding out more about it, by drawing attention to it, because the data thus far is promising. When he goes over the top, it draws more attention to it, because the media is quick to slam him for it while drawing attention to the topic he wanted the focus on, playing right into his hands because they are deluded enough to think it hurts him.

Outrageous Opening Offer FTW

Nuance Shmuance

Politics is Pro Wrestling, Kayfabe it up

Edited April 7, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[Boges]

3 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

I'm not a politician.

Trump wants the experts to focus on finding out more about it, by drawing attention to it, because the data thus far is promising. When he goes over the top, it draws more attention to it, because the media is quick to slam him for it while drawing attention to the topic he wanted the focus on, playing right into his hands because they are deluded enough to think it hurts him.

Outrageous Opening Offer FTW

Nuance Shmuance

Politics is Pro Wrestling, Kayfabe it up

So then stupid people try to buy up this drug thinking it's the cure. 

And now people that need the drug for its intended purpose can't get it. 

This the Forthythia plotline from Contagion except it's the POTUS doing it and not a Shady Infowars-type Blogger. 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/06/hydroxychloroquine-trump-coronavirus-drug

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Meanwhile, Dr Anthony Fauci, the country’s top infectious disease doctor, has repeatedly warned that there is no conclusive evidence to support using the drug. Asked whether it should be considered a treatment for Covid-19, he said on 24 March: “The answer is no.”

 

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Trump made his first endorsement of hydroxychloroquine on 19 March. Export controls, shortages, overdoses and scientific recriminations rapidly ensued, but the controversy could not extinguish the power of presidentially endorsed hope. Across the globe and throughout diverse communities on the internet, hydroxychloroquine had been anointed the miracle cure for Covid-19.

The only problem? The study that all this fervid hope is based on doesn’t show what its authors claim it does.

The gold standard for a clinical trial is a double-blinded, randomized controlled trial (RCT). What this means in plain English is that the study has been designed to reduce biases that would render its results meaningless. Neither the physician nor the patients knows whether they received the drug (“double-blinded”), a safeguard that reduces the possibility that the doctor will treat the two groups differently. The researchers also do not get to choose which patients go into which group (“randomized”) and the makeup of the two groups is roughly equivalent (“controlled”).

The French hydroxychloroquine study did not follow any of these rules.

 

[Yzermandius19]

8 minutes ago, Boges said:

So then stupid people try to buy up this drug thinking it's the cure. 

Stupid people would do that regardless of what he did. The pros heavily outweigh the cons, you're too blinded by TDS to notice, so Orange Man Bad.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[Boges]

Just now, Yzermandius19 said:

Stupid people would do that regardless of what he did. The pros heavily outweigh the cons, you're too blinded by TDS to notice, so Orange Man Bad.

The pros of giving a drug, that has no conclusive study to back it.

This is just a grift. It's what Trump is the best at. 

It's Trump who's creating the hype around this drug, not actual scientists and doctors. 

[Argus]

2 hours ago, Shady said:

Trudeau announced today that they’re working with business to produce 30,000 ventilators.  This is good news.  

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ventilators-trudeau-1.5524581

However, TRUMP DID THIS WEEKS AGO.

But somehow people are still pushing the false narrative that Trump has done nothing and Trudeau has.  Complete and utter bullshit.

You make it sound like Trudeau just got the idea yesterday. They've been working on this for weeks, too.

[Boges]

And stupid people wouldn't do it if Trump wan't giving them false (at worst) or premature (at best) hope. 

[Boges]

Just now, Argus said:

You make it sound like Trudeau just got the idea yesterday. They've been working on this for weeks, too.

Trudeau actually consulted with businesses and have a concrete plan. 

Trump just had a Twitter spat with GM. 

[Yzermandius19]

11 minutes ago, Boges said:

The pros of giving a drug, that has no conclusive study to back it.

The evidence so far looks good, thus he wants more focus on it, so more people will try to find out more about it. To twist that into a negative, is obvious TDS.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[Boges]

Just now, Yzermandius19 said:

The evidence so far looks good. he wants the focus on it, so more people will try to find out more about it. To twist that into a negative, is obvious TDS.

TdS tDs TdS!

Dropping TDS doesn't actually qualify as an intelligent argument. 

You don't think scientists everywhere aren't trying to find a cure. What Trump is doing is creating artificial hype for a drug that may or may not actually benefit COVID patients. 

[Shady]

2 hours ago, Argus said:

You make it sound like Trudeau just got the idea yesterday. They've been working on this for weeks, too.

But nobody’s suggested that Trudeau hasn’t responded to the crisis.  Trudeau and Trump have literally taken the same steps, usually Trump acting first.  But because Trump is an a-hole, a false narrative of him refusing to act is continually pushed.  I’m all for criticizing Trump, for legitimate reasons, but not making ones up that certain members of this forum do on a regular basis. 

For example.  The BP oil spill took place while Obama was president.  It took over 4 months to stop the spill.  If that spill hadn’t taken place while Obama was president, but instead took place while Trump was president, he’d be getting vilified.  He’d be accused of not appropriately responding or dragging his feet if it went on for over 4 months.  There’d be a # of days since the spill counter in the corner of the screen on CNN.  They’d be announcing every day, it’s been 97 days since the spill occurred, it’s been 100 days since the spill occurred.  It’s been 125 days since the spill occurred, etc, etc, etc.

[Shady]

2 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

The evidence so far looks good, thus he wants more focus on it, so more people will try to find out more about it. To twist that into a negative, is obvious TDS.

It should be between a patient and their doctor.  New York is using the drug with significant success.  Unfortunately there isn’t time right now to do a proper year long drug trial.  But the side effects are already known because it’s been around for decades.  For some reason people are thinking it’s a new drug that has unknown side effects.  If it was anyone other than Trump suggesting it, it would be more accepted.  

[Argus]

1 minute ago, Shady said:

But nobody’s suggested that Trudeau hasn’t responded to the crisis.  Trudeau and Trump have literally taken the same steps, usually Trump acting first.  But because Trump is an a-hole, a false narrative of him refusing to act is continually pushed.  I’m all for criticizing Trump, for legitimate reasons, but not making ones up that certain members of this forum do on a regular basis.

But the accusation isn't false. He DID wait until March to order anything. He DID downplay it earlier. That Trudeau did no better is irrelevant. You see me defending anyone's behavior?

I already stated what Trump got wrong. He waited too long to order medical equipment, screwed up early testing, downplayed the whole thing, and the states still say he's leaving it up to them to find their own PPE.

Trudeau waited too long to order medical equipment, waited too long to close the borders, and still isn't doing proper screening at the borders.

If I had to give the nod to one or the other, as an individual, I would say Trudeau is ahead. At least he hasn't screwed things up for the government. I don't give him any credit for actually doing anything useful, mind you. But he hasn't been a counter-productive asshole like Trump.

[Shady]

4 hours ago, Argus said:

But the accusation isn't false. He DID wait until March to order anything. He DID downplay it earlier. That Trudeau did no better is irrelevant. You see me defending anyone's behavior?

I already stated what Trump got wrong. He waited too long to order medical equipment, screwed up early testing, downplayed the whole thing, and the states still say he's leaving it up to them to find their own PPE.

Trudeau waited too long to order medical equipment, waited too long to close the borders, and still isn't doing proper screening at the borders.

If I had to give the nod to one or the other, as an individual, I would say Trudeau is ahead. At least he hasn't screwed things up for the government. I don't give him any credit for actually doing anything useful, mind you. But he hasn't been a counter-productive asshole like Trump.

Trump has done everything Trudeau’s done, but sooner, including shutting down travel from China and Europe much sooner.  Yep, he’s an asshole, but in terms of getting things done, the federal response, CDC, FEMA, the army corps of engineers have been in use for several weeks.  The reason why testing was delayed was because at first the CDC wanted to handle all of the testing, the way they have during previous pandemics.  If Trump was late acquiring equipment than Trudeau was really really late.  Not to mention that at least the United States has a stockpile.  Trudeau didn’t even have that to go to.  But yes, Trudeau is nicer, and speaks much better.  He’s nicer to the press too.