Shady Posted March 22, 2020 Report Share Posted March 22, 2020 On 3/21/2020 at 12:06 PM, Yzermandius19 said: Flattening the curve doesn't solve the problem, That’s just not true. It’s the first step in bending the curve. When you have less people with the virus, you have less spreading of the virus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted March 22, 2020 Report Share Posted March 22, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, bcsapper said: Are we arguing about the virus or the economy? What the effect of the correct action will have on the economy is a different argument, is it not? The correct action isn't at odds with the economy, you assuming that the best way to address the health issue is to hurt the economy is the problem, because it causes you to dismiss any solution that doesn't hurt economy, no matter how effective it is. It's not a zero-sum game. Edited March 22, 2020 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 22, 2020 Report Share Posted March 22, 2020 1 minute ago, Yzermandius19 said: The correct action isn't at odds with the economy, you assuming that the best way to address the health issue is to hurt the economy is the problem. I don't. I don't have the economy in mind at all. You assuming putting the economy first is the way to deal with a health crisis seems to be the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted March 22, 2020 Report Share Posted March 22, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, bcsapper said: I don't. I don't have the economy in mind at all. You assuming putting the economy first is the way to deal with a health crisis seems to be the problem. I'm not suggesting putting the economy first, I am suggesting that many of the best ways to deal with the health crisis have nothing to do with hurting the economy. Not taking economic effects into account is a big reason why you don't see the downsides to many of your suggested policies. The economy effects people's lives too, and a terrible economy can lead to a lot of deaths that wouldn't otherwise have happened, so if you don't have proof of measures that shut down the economy make a huge difference in the amount of lives saved, then you have very little upside being gained at the expense of huge downsides. Saving a few extra peoples lives from Coronavirus, which isn't even what you are doing you are actually getting more people killed by Coronavirus with this economic shutdown, all while allowing a lot of people to die due to terrible economic situations caused an ineffective overreaction to the virus, that is not a good trade off. That's a net loss of life plus huge economic damage. Literally the worst of both worlds. Edited March 22, 2020 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 22, 2020 Report Share Posted March 22, 2020 1 minute ago, Yzermandius19 said: I'm not suggesting putting the economy first, I am suggesting that many of the best ways to deal with the health crisis have nothing to do with hurting the economy. Not taking economic effects into account is a big reason why you don't see the downsides to many of your suggested policies. Economic downsides? I see them, (Who doesn't have mutual funds?) I just don't have them in mind when it comes to COVID-19. They are what they are, and the economy will rebound when it is ready. I'm happy to turn over the responsibilities for the response to health care experts who also don't have them in mind. What is the best way to deal with the crisis that doesn't hurt the economy? I'm just curious. If it is allowing it to take its course until the herd immunity is achieved, I would just have to disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted March 22, 2020 Report Share Posted March 22, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, bcsapper said: Economic downsides? I see them, (Who doesn't have mutual funds?) I just don't have them in mind when it comes to COVID-19. They are what they are, and the economy will rebound when it is ready. I'm happy to turn over the responsibilities for the response to health care experts who also don't have them in mind. What is the best way to deal with the crisis that doesn't hurt the economy? I'm just curious. If it is allowing it to take its course until the herd immunity is achieved, I would just have to disagree. When you shut the economy down for extended periods of time, the economy doesn't simply come roaring back, that's not how it works. If you fail to factor in economic downsides, that can lead to proposals that do far more damage to human life and the economy than the coronavirus ever could, embracing "cures" that are worse than the disease is not the way to handle coronavirus. You can't just tune out important factors because you're hyper focused on one factor, that can lead to terrible decisions where the juice isn't worth squeeze, such decisions being more likely with such a mindset because of tunnel vision and panic. Edited March 22, 2020 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 22, 2020 Report Share Posted March 22, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said: When you shut the economy down for extended periods of time, the economy doesn't simply come roaring back, that's not how it works. If you fail to factor in economic downsides, that can lead to proposals that do far more damage to human life and the economy than the coronavirus ever could, embracing "cures" that are worse than the disease is not the way to handle coronavirus. You can't just tune out important factors because you're hyper focused on one factor, that can leads to terrible decisions. I didn't say roar. I said rebound. It will do it in its own time and at its own pace. If I knew what they were I would be very rich and I wouldn't care. Your last sentence sounds exactly like what you want to do. You want to tune out a worldwide response to a worldwide emergency to prevent damage to the economy. Edited March 22, 2020 by bcsapper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted March 22, 2020 Report Share Posted March 22, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, bcsapper said: I didn't say roar. I said rebound. It will do it in it's own time and at it's own pace. That time and pace can get a lot of people killed if you go too far with draconian economic shutdowns, more people than will be saved by such draconian economic shutdowns. Be careful what you wish for, you just might get a net loss of life because of tunnel vision on Coronavirus. That and thinking that the only effective measures to fight Coronavirus are desperate measures with massive government intervention, because you're a knee-jerk nanny stater who sees a free market economy as the enemy, if a threat you don't understand gets you whipped up into a panic. If it doesn't come with big heapings of massive government control, or with the support of people who support such policies, then you won't consider such a policy effective against Coronavirus. Edited March 22, 2020 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 22, 2020 Report Share Posted March 22, 2020 12 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said: That time and pace can get a lot of people killed if you go too far with draconian economic shutdowns, more people than will be saved by such draconian economic shutdowns. Be careful what you wish for, you just might get a net loss of life because of tunnel vision on Coronavirus. That and thinking that the only effective measures to fight Coronavirus are desperate measures with massive government intervention, because you're a knee-jerk nanny stater who sees a free market economy as the enemy, if a threat you don't understand gets you whipped up into a panic. If it doesn't come with big heapings of massive government control, or with the support of people who support such policies, then you won't consider such a policy effective against Coronavirus. It's funny how you can start a post with reasonable comments that do make sense from one perspective, if not others, and then degenerate into paranoid silliness and start throwing insults around. Carry on, you don't need me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted March 22, 2020 Report Share Posted March 22, 2020 5 hours ago, bcsapper said: I think the UK initially bought into the herd immunity theory, but their experts shut that down pretty quickly. If you know of other experts that think the way they did initially I'd be happy to compare their notes. (summaries and conclusions only of course. I actually still go to work) I think the herd immunity theory is valid but not forcing it in a short time. This is why some experts are expecting our measure will need to be in place for a year or more before herd immunity and vaccines make it more difficult for future outbreaks of COVID-19 to get the traction they need to take off in all directions. This is what makes a discussion about the economics of this imperative. We've seen how devastating not getting and staying ahead of the disease curve can be so there is no excuse for not exploring the more insidious economic repercussions of imagining this will blow over by this May. Next May is more like it and probably at half the speed we're accustomed to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 22, 2020 Report Share Posted March 22, 2020 Yes, I agree. A herd immunity will come about eventually regardless of the way we get there, but I would rather do it the way we are currently doing it than let the disease take charge and cull everyone who isn't up to it. I'm not sure I understand your point re economics. The discussions are important, and I'm sure they are taking place at the highest levels, the IMF, the major banks, etc. I'm also sure they are doing what they can to mitigate the worst of the effects, but it is a separate discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCanMan Posted March 22, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2020 On 3/16/2020 at 6:12 AM, Boges said: JT isn't hiding. He's self-quarantining because his wife has it you moron. Something Trump should be doing as well, because he's been exposed to people that turned out positive. Oooh sandbox insults. You must know what you’re talking about lol. How do they know that his wife has it? They must have tested her. But they don’t have a test kit for our PM? Bullshit. He’s in hiding. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxme Posted March 22, 2020 Report Share Posted March 22, 2020 On 3/21/2020 at 7:56 AM, Boges said: Approaching 20:1 cases between the countries and 20 times more deaths too. New York State and California are starting to look like Italy. Trump is tweeting premature hope about treatment before trials are even done. The only treatment is social distancing. It's hard to believe that there are that many fools out there who are now believing in and now practicing what is now called "social distancing"? Have those people now become a bunch of wackos. The virus is supposed to be an air born virus, so how in the hell is "social distancing" going to prevent anyone from catching this virus? Can you not see that there is something wrong with this picture? I guess that if you are a liberal you will see nothing wrong with this picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxme Posted March 22, 2020 Report Share Posted March 22, 2020 1 hour ago, bcsapper said: Yes, I agree. A herd immunity will come about eventually regardless of the way we get there, but I would rather do it the way we are currently doing it than let the disease take charge and cull everyone who isn't up to it. I'm not sure I understand your point re economics. The discussions are important, and I'm sure they are taking place at the highest levels, the IMF, the major banks, etc. I'm also sure they are doing what they can to mitigate the worst of the effects, but it is a separate discussion. I do hope that you are staying home as much as possible so that if you do have the bug you will not give it to me or others out there. The globalists created this pandemic and you think that we should be listening to them? The globalists have the "social distance" lemmings doing their part although I cannot see how keeping yourself six feet away from the person in front of you is gong to stop you from getting the bug if they have it already? It is supposed to be an air born virus, is it not? All our politicians and the media are doing is trying to make all of our lives as miserable as hell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxme Posted March 23, 2020 Report Share Posted March 23, 2020 1 hour ago, WestCanMan said: Oooh sandbox insults. You must know what you’re talking about lol. How do they know that his wife has it? They must have tested her. But they don’t have a test kit for our PM? Bullshit. He’s in hiding. You got that right, pardner. Teflon(Gotti)Don Trudeau is hiding alright. Nothing like having another one of many vacations that he takes every year from having to deal with this countries other real and many pressing problems, and of course get to stay away from we the people. You know, those dam contemptible bloody Canadian taxpayer's that expects Teflon Don to try and fix the economy, and not keep running away from trying to fix the economy. Lefty liberals have no idea what the hell are talking about. All they know how to do is just babble on and on forever. Aw well, just another three more years to go as a minority liberal government, and after the next election, a majority liberal government. Canada is truly and totally phuc-ed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted March 23, 2020 Report Share Posted March 23, 2020 1 hour ago, WestCanMan said: Oooh sandbox insults. You must know what you’re talking about lol. How do they know that his wife has it? They must have tested her. But they don’t have a test kit for our PM? Bullshit. He’s in hiding. Even if he's lying about Sophie having it. Which he's not! He's having daily briefings. How's that hiding? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted March 23, 2020 Report Share Posted March 23, 2020 (edited) The Republican controlled Senate can't agree on a bailout package which will send the Stock market even lower. They couldn't even get a simple majority because 5 GOP Senators are in quarantine. How's that for irony? US death toll hits 400. Edited March 23, 2020 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 23, 2020 Report Share Posted March 23, 2020 7 minutes ago, Boges said: The Republican controlled Senate can't agree on a bailout package which will send the Stock market even lower. They couldn't even get a simple majority because 5 GOP Senators are in quarantine. Canada's Parliament shut down until April 20....must be in quarantine ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted March 23, 2020 Report Share Posted March 23, 2020 1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Canada's Parliament shut down until April 20....must be in quarantine ? Nope. Being recalled on Tuesday. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/parliament-recall-aid-package-1.5502325 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 23, 2020 Report Share Posted March 23, 2020 (edited) 1 minute ago, Boges said: Nope. Being recalled on Tuesday. So what took so long ? Why did they recess in the first place during a pandemic ? 30 MPs is not Parliament. Edited March 23, 2020 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iceni warrior Posted March 23, 2020 Report Share Posted March 23, 2020 (edited) 8 hours ago, bcsapper said: Are we arguing about the virus or the economy? What the effect of the correct action will have on the economy is a different argument, is it not? I'm not proud, though. I think the UK initially bought into the herd immunity theory, but their experts shut that down pretty quickly. If you know of other experts that think the way they did initially I'd be happy to compare their notes. (summaries and conclusions only of course. I actually still go to work) Yes, Boris had to change tack when it was pointed out to him that prioritising herd immunity was an untested theory that would simply overload the healthcare system and the bodycount would be horrendous. Flattening the curve is the universally accepted best way to minimise deaths. The trouble is that some people care more about the economy and with it Trump's chances of re-election. Across the 3 political forums I frequent it is almost exclusively hardcore Trump fans who are still saying that the isolation measures being implimented are overreacting and that the economy is somehow more important than lives. Even Trump himself is reluctantly complying with the advice of the actual experts despite still pretending to be overly optimistic about how quickly treatments and vaccines are coming down the line. He has not yet taken one eye off the market crash but when daily deaths are exceeding the numbers we are now seeing in Italy he will have to backtrack his claims about how quickly it will be over. Edited March 23, 2020 by Iceni warrior Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted March 23, 2020 Report Share Posted March 23, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: So what took so long ? Why did they recess in the first place during a pandemic ? 30 MPs is not Parliament. They're lowering the numbers but keeping the representational ratio. Ontario is doing the same. For public safety. Edited March 23, 2020 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 23, 2020 Report Share Posted March 23, 2020 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Boges said: They're lowering the numbers but keeping the representational ratio. Ontario is doing the same. For public safety. Public safety my ass....pussies ! Why did they recess in the middle of a pandemic ? Edited March 23, 2020 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 23, 2020 Report Share Posted March 23, 2020 (edited) 41 minutes ago, taxme said: I do hope that you are staying home as much as possible so that if you do have the bug you will not give it to me or others out there. Only because I don't know where you live. If I did, I'd pretend to be a skip the dishes guy who got the wrong address. Edited March 23, 2020 by bcsapper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted March 23, 2020 Report Share Posted March 23, 2020 2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Public safety my ass....pussies ! Why did they recess in the middle of a pandemic ? Dunno. Still looks like they'll get a bailout passed before America. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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