Pipeline protestors need to be jailed

[jacee]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

Literal blackmail for money using quasi or real terrorism. The public doesn’t support that and never will.  You live on the fringe and dialogue with like-minded individuals in a hall of mirrors that isn’t reality.  

72% of Canadians are smart enough to be determined that governments' inaction must stop causing conflict with Indigenous peoples. 

Edited March 8, 2020 by jacee

[jacee]

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Evidence?

Redirecting small portion of subsidies would unleash clean energy revolution

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/aug/01/fossil-fuel-subsidy-cash-pay-green-energy-transition

 

[Zeitgeist]

27 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

The media sold the idea that the coal plants were the cause of smog which is killing everybody

Even though smog has been going down steadily since the 1970's and coal plants were a tiny contributor to it and there's no evidence that anybody is actually dying of smog

 

Nanticoke had been the biggest coal generating station in North America before Ontario closed its coal plants.  You could literally see the yellow smog from it and Lakeview generating station. You could smell it too, despite the scrubbers.  There were measurable reductions in airborne particulate matter and levels of sulfer dioxide and nitrous oxides when the plants closed, which were estimated to be contributing to over 20,000 respiratory problems in Ontario, and all of this is without considering the big reduction in greenhouse gases after the plants were closed and led lights were made mandatory.  In fact, we are no longer using all of our energy capacity most of the time, though we do still import at peak periods, sometimes paying a premium for dirtier coal power from the US, despite massive investments in wind farms in Western Ontario.  

Edited March 8, 2020 by Zeitgeist

[Moonlight Graham]

4 minutes ago, jacee said:

Redirecting small portion of subsidies would unleash clean energy revolution

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/aug/01/fossil-fuel-subsidy-cash-pay-green-energy-transition

 

This report is from an organization called the International Institute for Sustainable Development (IISD) under their "Global Subsidies Initiative".  Clearly no confirmation bias or conflict of interest there! Lol.

Have any evidence from an unbiased scholarly source that's peer-reviewed?

[Dougie93]

5 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Nanticoke had been the biggest coal generating station in North America before Ontario closed its coal plants.  You could literally see the yellow smog from it and Lakeview generating station. You could smell it too, despite the scrubbers.  There were measurable reductions in airborne particulate matter and levels of sulfer dioxide and nitrous oxides, which were estimated to contributing to over 20,000 respiratory problems in Ontario, and all of this is without considering the big reduction in greenhouse gases after the plants were closed and led light were made mandatory.  In fact, we are no longer using all of our energy capacity most of the time, though we do still import at peak periods, sometimes paying a premium for dirtier coal power from the US, despite massive investments in wind farms in Western Ontario.  

By the Liberals own estimates, only 15% of the smog is generated by utilities, the vast majority is generated by automobiles

[Zeitgeist]

5 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

By the Liberals own estimates, only 15% of the smog is generated by utilities, the vast majority is generated by automobiles

Yes but there were hotspots near the plants for sure.  The reality is that many of these plants were built along the lake for easy shipping of coal and to clear the air.  That’s not necessary for natural gas, which uses much smaller plants that can be put anywhere near a gas pipeline.  An actual town-sized lakefront development is going in where Lakeview used to be in Mississauga.  Good revenue for the city and province, and cleaner air for the GTA.  

[Argus]

20 minutes ago, jacee said:

Redirecting small portion of subsidies would unleash clean energy revolution

We are not going to replace fossil fuels with wind and solar. Period. It cannot work. If more environmentalists, like this guy, actually studied the numbers, that would be come patently obvious.

 

Edited March 8, 2020 by Argus

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

Yes but there were hotspots near the plants for sure.  The reality is that many of these plants were built along the lake for easy shipping of coal and to clear the air.  That’s not necessary for natural gas, which uses much smaller plants that can be put anywhere near a gas pipeline.  An actual town-sized lakefront development is going in where Lakeview used to be in Mississauga.  Good revenue for the city and province, and cleaner air for the GTA.  

But it was 25% of Ontario's power supply and it was dirt cheap, so it's a cost benefit analysis, wherein closing them in favor of wind farms is a net disaster, 

 

[Zeitgeist]

Just now, Dougie93 said:

But it was 25% of Ontario's power supply and it was dirt cheap, so it's a cost benefit analysis, wherein closing them in favor of wind farms is a net disaster, 

 

Well I’m glad we closed them, but it came at a cost.  I think we always have to ask, when it comes to green initiatives, “What are the benefits and how much are we willing to pay, without adding debt?”  We don’t do this enough.

[Dougie93]

3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Well I’m glad we closed them, but it came at a cost.  I think we always have to ask, when it comes to green initiatives, “What are the benefits and how much are we willing to pay, without adding debt?”  We don’t do this enough.

If the Liberals had said they were closing them down in favor of just buying Hydro from Quebec I would have supported them.

Because I knew it was just a rubric for a boondoggle is why I didn't, although as a disaster capitalist, I can make it work for me.

[DogOnPorch]

45 minutes ago, jacee said:

72% of Canadians are smart enough to be determined that governments' inaction must stop causing conflict with Indigenous peoples. 

 

You didn't answer.

So the creation of numerous race based Bantustans with hereditary succession (kings) that Canada pays for?

Well?

Edited March 8, 2020 by DogOnPorch

[Army Guy]

23 hours ago, jacee said:

Indigenous people don't seem to be having any problem gaining the support of a majority of Canadians  because we all know that it is our governments' failure to do their job that has brought things to this point. 

(Conservatives are a minority, and even some of them understand that government incompetence is the problem.) 

If they had the support of the people , then there should be no water/ housing  problems on northern reserves. And of all the footage released by the media todate, not many citizens stopped and gave praise or support, most were angry at the blockaders. If you want the government do act , first you must have the support of the people, ask Vets how they are doing in their quest to get equal treatment....just because you have a few white environments in the crowd does not mean they support the first nations cause nor does it mean the rest of Canada gives a shit, I mean the answer is right there in your face, why else do they have to protest ?.

[Shady]

20 hours ago, eyeball said:

You haven't said a word about methane. Why is that?  You don't believe it, don't care, don't know what?

Whatever it is why do I get the sense you'll happily spend the next 30 years denying it quibbling over it prevaricating about it and of course leaking, flaring and ignoring it?

You alarmists are allowing the perfect to be the enemy of the very good.  Natural gas is a very good temporary bridge fuel that can allow massive decreases in C02 emissions.  The United States is a perfect example.  If China were to follow the American example, global emissions would drastically decline.  However, they’re building new coal power plants every few weeks, and under the Paris accord, allowed to increase emissions until 2030.  You’ll all be dead before you get perfect solutions to anything, let alone climate change.

[Shady]

22 hours ago, jacee said:

Gas is not cleaner than coal. (See above, google 'methane leaks', etc)

Stop your pretense of speaking for Indigenous people. You speak nonsense. It's extremely offensive.

Yes it is cleaner than coal.  It’s a scientific fact.  Stop denying science and stop letting the perfect be the enemy of the very good.  You’re acting like some kind of religious zealot.

[eyeball]

13 minutes ago, Shady said:

Yes it is cleaner than coal.  It’s a scientific fact.  Stop denying science and stop letting the perfect be the enemy of the very good.  You’re acting like some kind of religious zealot.

Why are you denying the scientific facts about methane?

[Army Guy]

On 3/7/2020 at 11:51 AM, eyeball said:

Why not protest that? Get off your ass and boycott BC, please. I've also repeatedly said the only issue I have with nuclear power is slipshod oversight of the industry and especially oversight of the government regulators.

I honesty don't think you people care about accountability anymore than you do the environment.

Everything else you said is just a bunch of left-wing derangement syndrome hooey.

I personal don't really give a rats ass about BC, I mean if you take a look at the damage the tree huggers have done to their own economy there it becomes very clear to the rest of the nation  we do not want your Poison to spread beyond your borders, nor do we want one province to dictate to the rest of the country what they can and can not do... 

 Here we go again "You People" speech. The Left has already wrapped getting our resources to market under a thick coat of regulation , and dipped it all in accountability to the point where elected band councils do not have any more authority than the cleaner at MacDonald's. Now some appointed persons under some other term, " which have forced the women in their group to resign their positions well because it is 2015 baby".....  well they call the shots now, want to talk about accountability, where is the millions of dollars already given to these bands, money given to them as a sign of good faith....money given to the wrong group I guess.... Accountability indeed.... where is the accountability for the new jobs, that are going to be sunk, where is the accountability of new standard of living for not only first nations but the rest of the province....there is now...because both sides of this issue are unwilling to meet in the middle....and each one will not stop until one side is destroyed....

You hide all this under the banner of climate change, we need to commit economical suicide in order to meet our goals, and do our part.....But you have yet to wrap your head around this fact....the world is not ready to commit to all the changes needed to make a difference in climate change....and they won't until it is to late...that has got nothing to do with accountability or being on the right or left....it has got to do with the lack of leadership . lack of will, lack of drive, not just here in Canada , but across most of the globe...

You can scream or march, or protest all you want, until there is a magical solution to the climate change that will allow countries to remain prosperous, then your stuck with knowing it is not going to happen, you can have millions of scientists lay it all out in crayon, but the world is not ready to make those sacrifices...  

 

 

 

[jacee]

3 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

This report is from an organization called the International Institute for Sustainable Development (IISD) under their "Global Subsidies Initiative".  Clearly no confirmation bias or conflict of interest there! Lol.

Have any evidence from an unbiased scholarly source that's peer-reviewed?

Fossil fuels increasingly offer a poor return on energy investment

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/07/190711114846.htm

And that's with current public subsidies propping up profits.

Shift 30% of subsidies to renewable energy, and the profits - and investors - shift to renewables.

Free the energy market! 

[DogOnPorch]

2 hours ago, Argus said:

We are not going to replace fossil fuels with wind and solar. Period. It cannot work. If more environmentalists, like this guy, actually studied the numbers, that would be come patently obvious.

 

 

Excellent excerpt by Shellenberger. Hadn't seen that one. Thanks.

 

[jacee]

2 hours ago, Army Guy said:

If they had the support of the people , then there should be no water/ housing  problems on northern reserves. And of all the footage released by the media todate, not many citizens stopped and gave praise or support, most were angry at the blockaders. If you want the government do act , first you must have the support of the people, ask Vets how they are doing in their quest to get equal treatment....just because you have a few white environments in the crowd does not mean they support the first nations cause nor does it mean the rest of Canada gives a shit, I mean the answer is right there in your face, why else do they have to protest ?.

72 % of Canadians want governments to resolve Aboriginal rights issues, to stop causing conflicts.

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, Army Guy said:

....it has got to do with the lack of leadership . lack of will, lack of drive, not just here in Canada , but across most of the globe...

If you're not willing to follow or lead I guess you'll just have to get out of the way.

You can scream or march, or protest all you want, until there is a magical solution to the climate change that will allow countries to remain prosperous, then your stuck with knowing it is not going to happen, you can have millions of scientists lay it all out in crayon, but the world is not ready to make those sacrifices..

Well people aren't willing to sacrifice the world either so you better get used to a lot more screaming, marching and protesting.

In your face AG.

 

[Zeitgeist]

No one on here is against a greener economy, but we are doing our best to get there through the lens of what is technically possible and financially viable.  I’m doing green energy production and I can tell you it’s expensive.  I will not have paid for my solar system in twenty years at the current taxpayer subsidized rate I’m being paid, which is twice the market rate.  I haven’t made as much as a $1000 a year on a $33,000 solar system.  I set it up because I’m passionate about green tech, but it produces a small amount of power though it’s a pretty large home system.  I’m in for the long haul because it’s a 50 year system and I don’t plan to move.  I probably won’t live another 50 years.

So Jacee and Eyeball, you can shriek about green options that are nearly impossible to afford without heavy subsidies and pet projects from wealthy people that simply cannot supply the load of our power demand, or you can work with the options that are available, because some options are better than others.  Natural gas is substantially cleaner than coal.  It’s abundant and affordable.  To ignore the positive impact that switching from coal to natural gas makes, not just to reducing greenhouse gasses but pollution, is irresponsible.  

Anyway, you clearly don’t deal in the real world. Your extreme green position would cripple the economy and put us back in candlelight.  Well guess what, the public isn’t going for that.  My guess is that you wouldn’t go for it either.  How would you get your lattes?

Edited March 9, 2020 by Zeitgeist

[JohnnyCanuck]

Lets steer this thread back to the title of the topic "pipeline protesters need to be jailed".

I would say No - they need to be given a background on the issue at hand.  The protesters claim that the Wetsuweten hereditary chiefs  did not give permission for the natural gas pipeline. The truth is that a year ago, there were 5 hereditary chiefs, they voted 3 to 2 in favour of the pipeline (along with the wetsuweten elected chiefs).  Then the 2 'against'  hereditary chiefs gathered together some bully boys, and stripped the 3 'in favour' chiefs (all matriachs) of their credentials, on the basis of they cannot be hereditary chiefs, because they are women.!!. Here is my evidence - straight from the tribe members https://www.jlsreport.com/2019/02/22/wetsuweten-strong-the-symbol-of-male-dominance-over-women/  

The 3 "replacement" chiefs have no validity, and therefore the refusal of permission to allow the pipeline is bogus - making the whole protest bogus.

The complaints that I have heard - that the pipeline will pollute the water and the land, are also bogus - my evidence - for over 50 years there has been a natural gas pipeline through the Wetsuweten territory, it goes to Prince Rupert, and on the way it branches off to supply natural gas to the houses of the wetsuweten people!!. It has not 'polluted the water and the land', so why would the new one?   The protesters are misinformed.

I heard innumerable cries of 'they did not consult'.  the truth is that 8 years of respectful consultation have taken place, and 20 separate bands on the pipeline route have signed their agreement. The agreements signed with these 20 bands agree to pay them $2.5 million each on completion of the first 10 km of line ,  $400,000 each on completion of the full line and $10 million dollars per year to share  for every year gas flows ( divided by 20 = $500,000 a year to each of the 20 bands). evidence - search on BC government natural gas pipleline agreements and read the text yourself like I did.

The majority of these 20 bands number 200 - to 300 persons,  that money is badly needed to fund new business opportunities for them. and yet  the 2 wetsuweten hereditary chiefs and their 3 'friends' who named themselves hereditary chiefs, want all that money stopped.!  and they promise nothing to replace this opportunity for those 20 first nations..

I have witnessed two protests personally,  one was up in Courtenay BC,  about 25 first nations people in the 15 to 20 age group were standing outside the town on the side of the entry road to the main highway going south. They were not blocking the road,  but the RCMP WERE !.  a single RCMP vehicle was sideways across the access road.,  I had to drive 20 minutes through a bunch of side roads and rejoin the highway below Royston.  As I rejoined the highway,  I saw the access road going north, was blocked by a single BC Government highways contractor vehicle. ! Most of the signs carried were "RCMP leave Wetsuweten people alone". What I conclude is that the RCMP and BC Govt colluded with the protesters, they appeared to be letting them stay there for the day,  I am guessing it was on condition that the detour route was left open.

The second protest has been on the steps of the  BC Legislature in Victoria,   the protesters are indigenous youth of whom many are studying at UVIC, who were all well dressed, well fed and well educated,  and they have Canada to thank for that.  They too, are 15 - 25 year olds with their whole life in front of them,  in the best country in the world!!. They have never had it so good!! They have opportunities that young people all over the world would kill to get!. Mother Canada has taken care of them , and yet the protesters have signs saying ' Shut down Canada' ?. Billions upon Billions of dollars are taken in taxes every year from the Canadian population and given to first nations, for this, I do not expect to see the flag of our beautiful country desecrated by signs saying "Reconciliation is Dead" superimposed on an upside-down Canadian flag. No non-indigenous Canadian would dream of desecrating indigenous symbols in such a fashion, there is something very wrong here.

 

Edited March 9, 2020 by JohnnyCanuck

[Zeitgeist]

6 hours ago, Argus said:

We are not going to replace fossil fuels with wind and solar. Period. It cannot work. If more environmentalists, like this guy, actually studied the numbers, that would be come patently obvious.

 

The message is clear: the best option for reducing greenhouse gasses is nuclear (and hydro if you have the right watercourses).

After that it’s natural gas.  Interestingly, the solar and wind options require natural gas (as the best fossil fuel option) in order to provide power when the wind isn’t blowing and the sun isn’t shining.  A lot is also said about the negative throughput impacts of solar panels when they are disposed, as well as the destruction of wildlife by wind and solar farms.   Fossil fuels are actually a corollary of wind and solar.  You can’t adjust nuclear up and down to provide power when the wind turbines and solar panels won’t.  

Edited March 9, 2020 by Zeitgeist

[Dougie93]

32 minutes ago, JohnnyCanuck said:

I do not expect to see the flag of our beautiful country desecrated by signs saying "Reconciliation is Dead" superimposed on an upside-down Canadian flag. No non-indigenous Canadian would dream of desecrating indigenous symbols in such a fashion, there is something very wrong here.

The Liberal Party of Canada Flag was cooked up in a contest in 1965, there's nothing particularly sacred about it, they don't even fly it in Quebec.

Flag Desecration is an American paradigm, you're just superimposing American culture unto the Canadian context.

[jacee]

5 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

The message is clear: the best option for reducing greenhouse gasses is nuclear (and hydro if you have the right watercourses).

After that it’s natural gas.  Interestingly, the solar and wind options require natural gas (as the best fossil fuel option) in order to provide power when the wind isn’t blowing and the sun isn’t shining.  A lot is also said about the negative throughput impacts of solar panels when they are disposed, as well as the destruction of wildlife by wind and solar farms.   Fossil fuels are actually a corollary of wind and solar.  You can’t adjust nuclear up and down to provide power when the wind turbines and solar panels won’t.  

RCMP prepares to crack down on Wet'suwet'en Nation as bottom falls out of LNG market in Asia

Some analysts believe that high-cost fossil fuels from Canada will never be economically viable in a low-carbon world

https://www.straight.com/news/1355886/rcmp-prepares-crack-down-wetsuweten-nation-bottom-falls-out-lng-market-asia

 

Edited March 9, 2020 by jacee