Pipeline protestors need to be jailed

[Argus]

2 hours ago, Grand Mal said:

Those nutbars chanting and blocking traffic are no more the left than the nutbars who call themselves 'the Base' are the right. I've been liberal all my life and I say that anyone who is against pipelines needs to Google Lac Megantic. I also say Trudeau left liberal principles behind when he bought a pipeline. That's not what government is for.

There's two issues here. I'm convinced all those young white activists are all about their twist on environmentalism and are just piggy-backing on the Native issue because it gets more attention and makes them feel extra special. The Natives involved, well, that's between them and the government. That is one thing the government should be doing, dealing with whatever is going on there.

And no, that's not a leftist thing. For all you know those protesting Natives are a solid bloc of conservatism.

Or lizard creatures from deep beneath the Earth.

But that's unlikely. They're Greens and NDP supporters and Liberals. There might be a few of the ANTIFA types around but not many. So no, not the Left's version of "the base". To begin with,  "The base" couldn't produce the numbers to engage in even one of these protests. In Canada, they're a tiny group of a dozen or two individuals, if that. If you're comparing these people with the inclinations they have to "the Base" you're going to have to admit that extremism is far more widespread among the Left than the Right.

[Dougie93]

See, when I say the government is afraid of the Mohawks I don't mean that they think the Mohawks are going to come to Ottawa and blow themselves up with suicide vests.

What they are afraid of is that if they crack down on one blockade, the response will be to erect ten blockades.  Then twenty, then fifty, then a hundred.

This is a game of tit for tat that Canada can't win, it only takes a handful of Indians to make a blockade, while it would take hundreds of Canadian troops to cover each one.

The only other way to deal with it would Direct Action by the Canadian Special Operations Forces to decapitate the Mohawk force, but Canadians are way too squeamish for that,

[Argus]

3 hours ago, eyeball said:

Cite? Do you have any evidence of anyone anywhere actually saying we have to start living in grass huts?  What's the difference between you believing that or something like Trudeau is instituting Sharia Law in Canada?  Are you oblivious to how this affects your credibility or do you just not give a shit?

It's called hyperbole, you silly man.

3 hours ago, eyeball said:

I suspect the difference between how we define caring or sustainable is what's really vast.  I also doubt if you'd be very interested in engaging in a process that tries to narrow those differences so that we can even begin to understand let alone appreciate one another's positions.  Instead you'd rather just let your stupid Limbaugh-esque characterizations of environmentalists along with anything else that isn't overtly right-wing and conservative rule your thinking.

Well given your idiotic characterizations of conservatives I really don't feel the need to be any more nuanced.

[Dougie93]

In my professional estimation, for every dozen Mohawks blockading, Canada would need a Rifle Company Group to cover that with overwhelming force to keep it under control.

There would however have to be three shifts to cover it round the clock,  so that's a Battalion Group.

Canada has nine Battalion Groups in the Army, and could probably generate three more by calling up the Reservists who are actually trained and equipped.

Twelve Battalions is the limit of what the army could generate, so that's how many blockades Canada can handle, twelve from coast to coast, after that, the Army is tapped out.

If you try to thin it out, only go with a Platoon for each blockade ?  That's too vulnerable.

Don't forget that the Mohawks could pick any one of these locations to mass their forces without warning.

Then you have a Platoon of Canadian troops surrounded and taken hostage, at which point things have gone from bad to worse.

You cannot employ half measures,  because that creates the space for things to spiral out of control and next thing you know it's Troops in Contact with Indians exploding in a hail of body parts.

The military could use firepower to offset its lack of mass, but then it's Bloody Sunday and a whole new world of conflict.

And like I say, there were a couple moments at Oka where this almost happened.  When the Army sent the platoon into the Rez in the Chinook and it degenerated into hand to hand combat, that was the brink, because if just one of those troops had opened fire, they all would have opened fire, and they were packing more than enough firepower to cut all the Mohawks down inside of a second, and those Mohawks included women who were right at the front with the men punching the troops in the face.

And as a troop at  the time watching it play out, when I saw the Mohawk punch that troop out and then grab his C9 light machine gun ? 

I wouldn't have let that happen if it was me, I would have opened fire right there, with the authority to do it, I'm not bound to surrender my weapon in hand to hand combat, and it's not about me, it's about the team, you can't let yourself get overrun when the team is relying on you.

With hindsight we know what happened, but in the moment, you as a troop, you do not know how far this will go, you are potentially facing you and your team being beaten to death for all you know,  and once that Mohawk has taken your light machine gun from you, he can turn that around on you; 5.56 X 45mm at 1000 rounds per minute, so you are actually bound by duty to prevent him from taking that weapon, by any means, up to and including lethal force.

With the rules of engagement, they should have never sent those troops in there in such small numbers where they could be overrun, but this is the sort of chaos which ensues in the fog of war.

Edited February 17, 2020 by Dougie93

[WestCanMan]

3 hours ago, eyeball said:

Cite? Do you have any evidence of anyone anywhere actually saying we have to start living in grass huts? 

The people who protest against fossil fuels have no idea how many of the things that they use every day come from petroleum products. 

Hempville would totally suck.

Quote

What's the difference between you believing that or something like Trudeau is instituting Sharia Law in Canada? 

WTF does this have to do with the price of tea in China?

Quote

Are you oblivious to how this affects your credibility or do you just not give a shit?

From right outta the "Look Who's Talking" dept...

Quote

I suspect the difference between how we define caring or sustainable is what's really vast. 

The vast difference is actually between what you think would happen to our economy and what actually would happen to our economy, while every other oil producing nation on earth just laughs at us.

Quote

I also doubt if you'd be very interested in engaging in a process that tries to narrow those differences so that we can even begin to understand let alone appreciate one another's positions.  Instead you'd rather just let your stupid Limbaugh-esque characterizations of environmentalists along with anything else that isn't overtly right-wing and conservative rule your thinking.

Fist off, all of the environmentalists who think that we'll make a noticeable change to the environment if we stop producing oil are just idiots (I'm not just talking about the hypocrites with the private jets and multiple houses either). The environmental impact will be like spit in the ocean. The main economic impact it will have is massively negative.

Secondly, man-made climate change is bullshit. Overpopulation, overfishing, and pollution are bigger problems. 

[Army Guy]

16 hours ago, Grand Mal said:

Liberals won for you every right and freedom you enjoy, and they fought against conservatives every step of the way. It's still happening. Gay marriags rights, drug law reform, womens right to safe abortion, all resisted by conservatives. The next one will be the right to assisted suicide. Liberals will win that right too, and they'll be opposed by conservatives. Again. Here it is in a nutshell...

Liberal- We can make this better.

Conservative- I liked it how it was before.

No bias in that statement at all, the 1867 constitution Canada which forms a good portion of todays constitution was written by Conservatives, and passed parliament in 1867... written by the first PM John A Macdonald, a Conservative...But hey lets give the liberals 3 cheers for bringing up some of the more recent freedoms we have today. Screw the other parties as well, I mean the NDP, and health care who needs it right...

[taxme]

On 2/15/2020 at 5:12 PM, Army Guy said:

Yes , today they got it all....except a few things, Tac vest is useless with only room for 5 mags...first thing we did in Afghanistan was dump them and buy modular ones that could hold 12 to 14 mags...M203 rounds, frags, and smoke grenades , good one cost about 500.00 but worth it all...live saving actually, along with a good med pouch and all the med stuff inside, Trauma kit another 400.00, 

I remember the upgraded rain gear , they made it rip proof....ya having something rain proof was over rated, what we really needed was rip proof....... we bought tons of stuff off the kit shop, fall boots with Gortex liners sown in, gortex bivy bags, gortex boot liners, helmet pads ( para pads),  rifle slings, 

Hey, I just got put in the forum penalty box for five days and four hours for going off topic and derailing a thread. Just saying. 

[taxme]

On 2/15/2020 at 4:46 PM, Dougie93 said:

I got into gear early on when I went to the UK and saw all the gear candy at Survival Aids and Special Air Sea Services.

The problem always being what could you get past the RSM and what was going to be useless because they wouldn't let you use it in the field.

Special Air Sea Services actually made British smocks in Canadian green with Canadian buttons, so they were RSM stealthed.

Guys kept asking us where they came from and we just said they were issue,  then they wanted to know when they were getting them.

You better stay on topic. I just was recently put in the forum penalty box for five days and four hours for going off topic, and derailing a posted thread. FYI.  

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, taxme said:

You better stay on topic. I just was recently put in the forum penalty box for five days and four hours for going off topic, and derailing a posted thread. FYI.  

I take my suspensions without complaint, I have other forums to go to in the meantime, but also it's just good to take a break from the internet at intervals anyways.

[Army Guy]

6 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Quote

 

So where to begin with all the relentless criticism.  Canada has been and is highly functional, exemplary in certain areas.  Our education system, biomedical advances, work in AI, the tech sector in general, natural resource extraction, social policies, social cohesion.  There’s much good to recognize.  Google is investing heavily.  Places like Kitchener-Waterloo are great places to live pretty much on all metrics.  Our cities are always rated near the top in the world for quality of life.  People want to be here and they’re coming by the thousands.  Canada is safer and more accepting than the US, and I believe freer now too.  Nevertheless, this isn’t the time for back-patting.  

The problem with maintaining such an open conciliatory society across a vast country with a limited civil defence is that we have to rely too heavily on trust.  When Trudeau made it open season to slam Canada and lay blame for all that ails ya on every historic misstep and injustice, his government made the country vulnerable.  Yes Canada was a colony, but it was run by absentee landlords who were eventually told not to return.  Through reform rather than revolution, Canada made serious contributions as a strong independent country through two worlds wars.  We could talk about many Canadian inventions and milestones, from insulin to the telephone to hockey and even basketball and football.  The Yanks like to reclaim our success stories as their own and call everyone else commies in la la land.

 

 This is not who Canada is today, 

 

6 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Quote

Yet we have come through our own crises and challenges, such as separatism and regional disparity. Now it’s the eco warriors vs. resource development and the narrative of the unelected leaders of an undefined area without title.  It’s radical environmentalism meets race-based nationalism, extremists justifying their insurrection with claims like, “We don’t recognize your rule of law because we don’t recognize Canada.”   Of course they have little support, no money, and no expertise on how to run a country or do much of anything, but they are loud, ignorant, and dangerous.  The Liberals have to stop humouring these radicals who will never support any national projects.  Dialogue with these people is inaction, but the government is playing it safe by going slow and talking it out.  That probably won’t solve it, because you can’t reason with these people.

They are well funded, if not by our own government which hires students to protest... To rich US companies that are pumping millions to disrupt our fossil fuel resource development...

I 100 % agree with you there is not many experts on there side, some how Natives have created their own perception of keepers of the land.. with no to little training in anything about the environment....what they do understand is money. What the fed needs to do is start thinking how to protect itself from future protests, rerouting the major rail net work  though  non native land, or  Purchase the land it requires for the pipelines , or take it like they do with all the other land they need for national projects.  

 

Yet we can’t blame other countries for our own vulnerabilities.  Our military has been weakened to the point of dysfunction.  Our police are afraid to enforce law.  Their fear of offending has become pathological, based on the Trudeau Doctrine of boundless shame in a post-national state.  

We should be proud of what Canadians have achieved and fight hard to protect it.  

Our country is the way it is now because that is what Canadians want, our military is near useless, our police forces now caught in the middle damn if they do, and damned if they don't ...can you blame them....So ya this is the way we want our country to look like …. 

[Dougie93]

There is actually a framework to raise an army in Canada to actually defend Canadian territory in an Armed Constabulary role.

That would be shift from a Regular Force based army to a Reserve Force based army, transfer the resources from overseas missions to territorial defence.

Problem being that not only is there no political will to do it, but the Regular Force is a deeply entrenched interest with the power to put a stop to that and that's what they would do.

[taxme]

13 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

 

Our country is the way it is now because that is what Canadians want, our military is near useless, our police forces now caught in the middle damn if they do, and damned if they don't ...can you blame them....So ya this is the way we want our country to look like …. 

Maybe what Canada needs today is not a military anymore but just have a national guard instead where they can be used to keep the peace from those eco terrorist communist thugs who have nothing to offer Canada except demonstrations like with this pipeline bs. Have your demonstrations but do not let them interfere with the flow of goods, traffic and people. That is where the line should be drawn. Millions of people were being denied their right to go freely about their business because of a bunch of upset hereditary Indian chiefs radicals. Deplorable.  

[scribblet]

We like to go on about Trudeau and Marc Miller etc.  but seriously, this country is in a world of doo doo.   IMO  Canada has a gov't that supports radical insurgents in a larger effort to subvert our energy sector so they  don't care who they hurt to do it. Canada is in trouble and I don't see Trudeau putting his money where is mouth is when it comes to 'the rule of law' he likes to bang on about.

[taxme]

11 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

There is actually a framework to raise an army in Canada to actually defend Canadian territory in an Armed Constabulary role.

That would be shift from a Regular Force based army to a Reserve Force based army, transfer the resources from overseas missions to territorial defence.

Problem being that not only is there no political will to do it, but the Regular Force is a deeply entrenched interest with the power to put a stop to that and that's what they would do.

Abolish the military. Form a national guard and go get them to go kick some pipeline illegal demonstrators azzes right into the river. Works for me. 

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, Nefarious Banana said:

Logger  . . . 43 years.  'I suspect' you didn't learn much.

Well in my 47 years on the coast I've learned enough working 9 years for Interfor including 4 in watershed/salmon restoration project management and environmental monitoring. Combine that with what I learned over 25 years of fishing/aquaculture 10 as an owner/operator and did a lot of log salvaging in those years too - its amazing how much loggers leave behind. Round that off with another couple of seasons of fisheries coordination and monitoring and some 16 seasons of wild life viewing.  I've also been involved as a volunteer in the governance of our regional district for some 40 years now.

The most important thing I've learned is just how interconnected things are and yet just how isolated so many things in different sectors and at different levels are, especially their management.

And then I have too listen to people who think they know everything they need to know about the government the economy and the environment call-out the scoops, wax longingly about filling ditches up with protesters and peppering just about everything they say with lol's, rolly eyes and references to Stalin et al. 

[Nefarious Banana]

2 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Well in my 47 years on the coast I've learned enough working 9 years for Interfor including 4 in watershed/salmon restoration project management and environmental monitoring. Combine that with what I learned over 25 years of fishing/aquaculture 10 as an owner/operator and did a lot of log salvaging in those years too - its amazing how much loggers leave behind. Round that off with another couple of seasons of fisheries coordination and monitoring and some 16 seasons of wild life viewing.  I've also been involved as a volunteer in the governance of our regional district for some 40 years now.

The most important thing I've learned is just how interconnected things are and yet just how isolated so many things in different sectors and at different levels are, especially their management.

And then I have too listen to people who think they know everything they need to know about the government the economy and the environment call-out the scoops, wax longingly about filling ditches up with protesters and peppering just about everything they say with lol's, rolly eyes and references to Stalin et al. 

You sound like a politician . . . this thread's about pipeline protesters, and whether or not they should be jailed.

[Dougie93]

23 minutes ago, taxme said:

Abolish the military. Form a national guard and go get them to go kick some pipeline illegal demonstrators azzes right into the river. Works for me. 

You can't change anything in Canada because Confederation is actually a zombie, Canada is dead, what we live in is a reanimated carcass

The undead do not progress, they simply remain.

Edited February 17, 2020 by Dougie93

[Army Guy]

55 minutes ago, taxme said:

Maybe what Canada needs today is not a military anymore but just have a national guard instead where they can be used to keep the peace from those eco terrorist communist thugs who have nothing to offer Canada except demonstrations like with this pipeline bs. Have your demonstrations but do not let them interfere with the flow of goods, traffic and people. That is where the line should be drawn. Millions of people were being denied their right to go freely about their business because of a bunch of upset hereditary Indian chiefs radicals. Deplorable.  

DND is not for defense of the nation it's nothing more than an employment agency, even our procurement policies dictate for every dollar spent 1 offset dollar must be received,  must be built in Canada regardless of cost, take a look at our ship building program, it could be reduced by half if we let foreign shipyards build our ships...Thats about 30 plus billion dollars, not accounting for inflation... it's all about corporate welfare..., you think the Irving's care about saving the nation some money....Thats the only reason we have a military...it's not about saving lives of it's soldiers, or foreign policy, it's about giving a politician the chance to play general and picking the equipment they think is the best for our nation, with no prior training or education...

Canada has lost more capabilities than it can recover, a lot are vital to our nations defense and security, at the end of the day, they will cash in our lives to save a few dollars and not even blink... even if we wanted a military, it would be to costly to rebuild...we have NO, Airborne  Regt, no self propelled arty, no air defense what so ever, we are extremely short on tanks, and IFV... helos. the entire armies fleet of trucks are rotting out, and they gave only replaced one out of 6 types, imagine they can not even replace trucks …..  fighters aircraft are over 40 years old, utility helos can't fly troops when they have all the armor installed, no attack helos, no scout helo's,  ......., , we have no destroyers, no  AOR's, still flying sea kings, shit we still have pistols from just after the second world war....the barrels are pretty much shot out, the list goes on and on....and on...

it would be cheaper just to give up on our military.... give it a funeral, and let the US look after our sovereignty....  

Edited February 17, 2020 by Army Guy

[taxme]

13 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

You can't change anything in Canada because Confederation is actually a zombie, Canada is dead, what we live in is a reanimated carcass

The undead do not progress, they simply remain.

Canada certainly appears to have become an "undead" country. We can only thank our dear leaders for that. They have encouraged and allowed lawlessness in this country because they have pretty much tried to push their many socialist programs and agendas on we the constantly screwed people that nobody ever asked for. They have now caused great division among the many different new ethnic people in this country because of their many stupid and pathetic pet peeve leftist liberal programs like diversity and multiculturalism.

Instead of minding their own dam business, they have gotten themselves involved and have intruded into our every day affairs and they keep trying to make us conform as to how and what they believe in and that they have the only answer and must be listened too and obey without question. Things can change for the better. It only takes a willingness on we the people to start giving a dam about what is going on in this country and demand change. The politicians do not know better. It is the people who know better and what is good for the country. We are not all a bunch of dummies out there in Canada land.

The private sector knows what to do and will do it well. A bigger government is not the answer to anything. It just creates more problems for all.  If they did, this country should be one of the wealthiest countries on earth and all the people should be filthy rich. Our Canadian dollar(peso)would never be as low as it is. But all we ever get from these politicians is more taxes, more government, more red tape, and constant attacks on our right to our free speech. If some people get offended over what someone else says, well too bad for them. Go cry themselves a river in the corner somewhere. Learn to live with offensive insults. I have all my life, and I am none the worse for it. As they say, "sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me".  Except maybe hurt my feelings and pride. 

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, taxme said:

Canada certainly appears to have become an "undead" country. We can only thank our dear leaders for that.

Nah, it's not any individuals nor group of individuals fault, Canada was simply an archaic imperialist adventure of the 19th century which couldn't survive long in the modern world never mind the post modern.

[taxme]

7 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

DND is not for defense of the nation it's nothing more than an employment agency, even our procurement policies dictate for every dollar spent 1 offset dollar must be received,  must be built in Canada regardless of cost, take a look at our ship building program, it could be reduced by half if we let foreign shipyards build our ships...Thats about 30 plus billion dollars, not accounting for inflation... it's all about corporate welfare..., you think the Irving's care about saving the nation some money....Thats the only reason we have a military...it's not about saving lives of it's soldiers, or foreign policy, it's about giving a politician the chance to play general and picking the equipment they think is the best for our nation, with no prior training or education...

Canada has lost more capabilities than it can recover, a lot are vital to our nations defense and security, at the end of the day, they will cash in our lives to save a few dollars and not even blink... even if we wanted a military, it would be to costly to rebuild...we have NO, Airborne  Regt, no self propelled arty, no air defense what so ever, we are extremely short on tanks, and IFV... helos. the entire armies fleet of trucks are rotting out, and they gave only replaced one out of 6 types, imagine they can not even replace trucks …..  fighters aircraft are over 40 years old, utility helos can't fly troops when they have all the armor installed, no attack helos, no scout helo's,  ......., , we have no destroyers, no  AOR's, still flying sea kings, shit we still have pistols from just after the second world war....the barrels are pretty much shot out, the list goes on and on....and on...

it would be cheaper just to give up on our military.... give it a funeral, and let the US look after our sovereignty....  

It has to be terribly embarrassing when Canada has to go buy old military equipment from other countries like Australia. If Canada cannot maintain an up to date military then why have a military at all. It is tax dollars not well spent. Canada is already a joke in regards to everything it does thanks to french Quebec. It cannot even stop illegal pipeline protesters from demonstrating and pretty much trying to shut down the whole country which was their communist aim. Quebec french liberalism and socialism has been pretty much responsible for this bloody mess that Canada finds itself in to today. It's all about Quebec and refugees and nothing more in this country. I have now gone a bit off topic so that is all I am going to say about this screwed up country for now. I do not want to get in trouble with the boss here if I can help it.  

Edited February 18, 2020 by taxme

[Dougie93]

Not all of Canada's equipment is old, there is a lot of state of the art equipment in the inventory, the issue is, as with everything military, logistics.

It's Boutique.  There is one or two items in the showroom which are fancy and state of the art, but there is nothing in the warehouse.

There's nowhere near enough of the equipment to go around.

For example, even though Canada has nine Battlegroups of Regular Force troops, it doesn't have nine Battlegroups worth of equipment to deploy them.

Canada can only really sustain one Battlegroup in the field for operations, fully manned and equipped, by cannibalizing the whole army to equip them.

 

[cannuck]

5 hours ago, Grand Mal said:

And no, that's not a leftist thing. For all you know those protesting Natives are a solid bloc of conservatism.

You win the interwebs!   That is definitely the funniest thing written in this world on this day.

[Dougie93]

The other issue is that the CAF is not really a full spectrum military anymore, it's an armed constabulary by default.

None the less the senior brass in the military won't give up the ghost, they are still trying to be a full spectrum military in defiance of reality.

This results in  a champagne taste on a beer budget.  

They spend big bucks on stuff they can't afford, then run out of money and have to go with less of everything.

This has degenerated into a spiral resulting in a slow motion collapse, year after year, decade after decade of totally unrealistic military planning has hollowed it into an empty shell.

[taxme]

1 hour ago, scribblet said:

We like to go on about Trudeau and Marc Miller etc.  but seriously, this country is in a world of doo doo.   IMO  Canada has a gov't that supports radical insurgents in a larger effort to subvert our energy sector so they  don't care who they hurt to do it. Canada is in trouble and I don't see Trudeau putting his money where is mouth is when it comes to 'the rule of law' he likes to bang on about.

No kidding the country is in deep dod-doo. When a bunch of eco terrorists anti-pipeline communist thugs can pretty much get away with almost shutting down a whole country like Canada, you have to know that there is really something seriously wrong with this Canadian picture. I believe that this present day government of Trudeau and his liberal ilk are indeed trying to de industrialize Canada. It is not Quebec that is trying to make and keep Canada great, it is the people of western Canada that is trying to help make and keep Canada great. It is Quebec and the politicians from Quebec that are in Ottawa who have done more harm to Canada and not a dam thing to try and make this country stay afloat. 

Trudeau likes to take our tax dollars and blow them on all of his pet peeve socialist and liberal programs and agendas that are and have not done a dam thing for Canada or Canadians and never will. On the contrary that buffoon has tried all his best to try and destroy this once great British/European nation and try to turn it into an unrecognizable British/European foreign country. Canada is indeed in trouble when a bunch of anti-pipeline radical communists can disrupt a country and be allowed to get away with it for weeks. Shocking indeed.