Should Canada Continue to Allow Full-Term Abortion?

[Zeitgeist]

Just now, bcsapper said:

No, I'm not. 

I see no reason why aborted fetuses should not be mined for stem cells, or used in medical research.  With the owner's permission of course.  I would say for some kind of remuneration, if such can be negotiated, but if not, donated, for the greater good, is okay.

I never troll.  I occasionally joke, like i did with the Kindergarten comment.

Well, stem cells can be extracted quite ethically now, so...  My understanding is that organ cell tissue can be differentiated from stem cells now without having to get into harvesting embryos for organs.  I wish it was more affordable for people to keep their kids' umbilical chords frozen.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

There are things to be appreciated about libertarianism, especially around things like drug decriminalization and a more realistic and supportive framework around prostitution, I think.  So many considerations, so little time.  And I don't care about people changing their gender if they feel like a different gender "on the inside".  Maximize freedom for sure, as long as people aren't hurt in the process...

If you stop someone availing themselves of medically assisted suicide, you are hurting them.  Likewise if you force them to bring a baby to term.  From any point in the pregnancy.  If you tell someone what they can and cannot do with their organs, when they can see a way out of their crushing poverty, you are hurting them in the process. 

But we're not in complete disagreement.  I also support drug legalization and a prostitute's right to do whatever he or she wants with their bodies.

Edited February 5, 2020 by bcsapper

[Zeitgeist]

4 minutes ago, -1=e^ipi said:

Who is harmed by selling a fetus for money for use in stem cell research? Abortion is already legal.

No I'm against that.  It's wrong because it incentivizes abortion, which has been justified in the courts as a hard decision made by women who are making a choice to avoid a hard life for the child and/or mother.  Making a fetus a marketable product is wrong.  There's an argument for keeping the embryos that have been aborted rather than disposing of them if they can be used to help people.  Tough one because I worry about that becoming a justification for more abortions.  If this happens it certainly should not be for profit. 

[-1=e^ipi]

4 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

No I'm against that.  It's wrong because it incentivizes abortion, which has been justified in the courts as a hard decision made by women who are making a choice to avoid a hard life for the child and/or mother.  Making a fetus a marketable product is wrong.  There's an argument for keeping the embryos that have been aborted rather than disposing of them if they can be used to help people.  Tough one because I worry about that becoming a justification for more abortions.  If this happens it certainly should not be for profit. 

Allowing for the sale of meat incentivizes the production of meat. A cow has a larger cerebral cortex than a fetus.

[Zeitgeist]

8 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

If you stop someone availing themselves of medically assisted suicide, you are hurting them.  Likewise if you force them to bring a baby to term.  From any point in the pregnancy.  If you tell someone what they can and cannot do with their organs, when they can see a way out of their crushing poverty, you are hurting them in the process. 

But we're not in complete disagreement.  I also support drug legalization and a prostitute's right to do whatever he or she wants with their bodies.

I just think "medically assisted suicide" is oxymoronic, as medicine is about supporting life.  That doesn't mean that I think suicide should be criminalized or stigmatized.  The people and the courts have chosen "medically assisted suicide", so now we have it, and I don't think it will be long before people start having "the conversation" with the elderly about the next step.  It won't be by force but by benign suggestion.  We're already seeing young people with alcohol addictions getting the go ahead for assisted suicide, so while I don't judge people for choosing it, I do think it's a slippery slope that has nothing to do with medicine.  It's really the result of the failure of medicine to treat pain and mental illness.

[Zeitgeist]

Just now, -1=e^ipi said:

Allowing for the sale of meat incentivizes the production of meat. A cow has a larger cerebral cortex than a fetus.

You will never convince me that a cow has more value than a fetus.  If you're recommending vegetarianism, fair enough.  It's a good idea as long as it isn't required of people. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I just think "medically assisted suicide" is oxymoronic, as medicine is about supporting life.  That doesn't mean that I think suicide should be criminalized or stigmatized.  The people and the courts have chosen "medically assisted suicide", so now we have it, and I don't think it will be long before people start having "the conversation" with the elderly about the next step.  It won't be by force but by benign suggestion.  We're already seeing young people with alcohol addictions getting the go ahead for assisted suicide, so while I don't judge people for choosing it, I do think it's a slippery slope that has nothing to do with medicine.  It's really the result of the failure of medicine to treat pain and mental illness.

I think medicine should be about helping people.  The people should get to decide what helps.

[Zeitgeist]

Just now, bcsapper said:

I think medicine should be about helping people.  The people should get to decide what helps.

Well in a democracy the people decide the laws.  I'd rather live in a democratic society than any other kind, even if I don't agree with all the laws.  Having said that, Hitler was elected democratically before he outlawed other parties and became a dictator, which is why we need legal protections such as the Charter...yada yada yada...

[Guest]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

Well in a democracy the people decide the laws.  I'd rather live in a democratic society than any other kind, even if I don't agree with all the laws.  Having said that, Hitler was elected democratically before he outlawed other parties and became a dictator, which is why we need legal protections such as the Charter...yada yada yada...

Sure, we don't have to agree with the laws.  If we all did there would be nothing to argue about. 

[Zeitgeist]

1 minute ago, bcsapper said:

Sure, we don't have to agree with the laws.  If we all did there would be nothing to argue about. 

True.  One can only watch so much porn.

[Guest ProudConservative]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

Well in a democracy the people decide the laws.  I'd rather live in a democratic society than any other kind, even if I don't agree with all the laws.  Having said that, Hitler was elected democratically before he outlawed other parties and became a dictator, which is why we need legal protections such as the Charter...yada yada yada...

My biggest problem with democracy is political gridlock. Just look at the Coronavirus for example... The chinese built a 1000 bed hospital in about 10 days. I think their speed of efficiency is remarkable.

The worse thing is when political parties obstruct, only to please their base. For example, when democrats enter a 3 week government shutdown, just because Trump asked for a few billion to go towards the border wall.

I read somewhere that... the shutdown causes the economy about 7.5 billion, but it could be far higher.... Even thought the employees got backpay... the distruption made airtravel not safe... and slowed down domestric trade.

Democracy has become a circus... where everyone plays the obstruction game, and never get excited about building inspiring national projects.

If you look at Dubai.... They just said... lets build the words highest building... We use to have that spirit in the 1970's, but these day we can't even get a subway tunnel built....So lately i'm getting sick and tired of democracy sometimes.

[SkyHigh]

Though no limits are set as to when abortions are still legal, Canada doesn't have the equipment to carry out late term abortions, and all such cases must go south of the border. Therefore this is a mute point

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, SkyHigh said:

Though no limits are set as to when abortions are still legal, Canada doesn't have the equipment to carry out late term abortions, and all such cases must go south of the border. Therefore this is a mute point

Cite proof.  I have a hard time believing that.  

Edited February 5, 2020 by Zeitgeist

[SkyHigh]

17 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Cite proof.  I have a hard time believing that.  

First thing i found

See specifically the third "Myth" their word not mine

Common Myths About Abortion | Action Canada for Sexual Health and Rights

[Shady]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

Cite proof.  I have a hard time believing that.  

That's probably because it's not true.

[August1991]

On 2/5/2020 at 1:38 PM, SkyHigh said:

Though no limits are set as to when abortions are still legal, Canada doesn't have the equipment to carry out late term abortions, and all such cases must go south of the border. Therefore this is a mute point

Disagree.

In Canada, an abortion - nine months - just prior to birth, is perfectly legal.

And yet, we (unlike Texas) have no Capital Punishment - the State cannot kill a convicted criminal.

Can Canadian soldiers shoot to kill on behalf of us? Yes, they can and they did in 1944 and in Afghanistan. (Like American soldiers.) 

====

IMHO, a civilised State allows kills/murder/taking of life/suicide/capital punishment - under specific conditions. 

Edited February 12, 2020 by August1991

[Yzermandius19]

On 2/1/2020 at 1:40 PM, dialamah said:

Late term abortions are almost non-existent.  Serial killers are not.

Totally false, late term abortions are far more common than serial killers. Just because you don't know any women who got late term abortions for dubious reasons doesn't mean there isn't any. Even if you were right and they are nearly non-existent and no woman would ever make such a decision for no good reason, then a law that banned late term abortions in such circumstances would never interfere with a woman's right to choose anyway.

Edited February 12, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[Yzermandius19]

On 2/4/2020 at 9:42 PM, bcsapper said:

Border Collies or Black Labs, sure.  Not Pit Bulls or Pekinese.

Dog racist.

[Yzermandius19]

On 2/4/2020 at 10:08 PM, bcsapper said:

No, I'm not. 

I see no reason why aborted fetuses should not be mined for stem cells, or used in medical research.  With the owner's permission of course.  I would say for some kind of remuneration, if such can be negotiated, but if not, donated, for the greater good, is okay.

I never troll.  I occasionally joke, like i did with the kindergarten comment.

If it's all about consent of the owner, then why wouldn't the consent of the person whose life is ending matter?

Edited February 12, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[SkyHigh]

4 hours ago, August1991 said:

Disagree.

In Canada, an abortion - nine months - just prior to birth, is perfectly legal.

And yet, we (unlike Texas) have no Capital Punishment - the State cannot kill a convicted criminal.

Can Canadian soldiers shoot to kill on behalf of us? Yes, they can and they did in 1944 and in Afghanistan. (Like American soldiers.) 

====

IMHO, a civilised State allows kills/murder/taking of life/suicide/capital punishment - under specific conditions. 

You can disagree all you want, does nothing to change the fact that Canadian doctors don't offer abortions after 23 weeks.

The ethics of abortion aside, if the "service" isn't available, how the law is written is irrelevant.

So again this is a mute point

 

[Shady]

On 2/4/2020 at 10:32 PM, bcsapper said:

I think medicine should be about helping people.  The people should get to decide what helps.

Yes, but killing people to help people is a slippery slope.

[Shady]

3 hours ago, SkyHigh said:

You can disagree all you want, does nothing to change the fact that Canadian doctors don't offer abortions after 23 weeks.

The ethics of abortion aside, if the "service" isn't available, how the law is written is irrelevant.

So again this is a mute point

 

That's not correct.

[SkyHigh]

1 hour ago, Shady said:

That's not correct.

I provided a citation already  (right above the last time you said the same thing) which wasn't even the original thing I'd seen on the subject, but just the first thing that popped up after a simple Google search.

Saying "that's not true" without supporting evidence means nothing, if im wrong it should be easy enough to prove. Show me a doctor in our public system offering "abortions" after 23 weeks. 

[Shady]

49 minutes ago, SkyHigh said:

I provided a citation already  (right above the last time you said the same thing) which wasn't even the original thing I'd seen on the subject, but just the first thing that popped up after a simple Google search.

Saying "that's not true" without supporting evidence means nothing, if im wrong it should be easy enough to prove. Show me a doctor in our public system offering "abortions" after 23 weeks. 

You don't know what you're talking about.  Just because people don't make it public, doesn't mean it's not happening.

Montreal woman who had late abortion says she made the right decision

https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/montreal-woman-who-had-late-abortion-says-she-made-the-right-decision

Edited February 12, 2020 by Shady

[SkyHigh]

29 minutes ago, Shady said:

You don't know what you're talking about.  Just because people don't make it public, doesn't mean it's not happening.

Montreal woman who had late abortion says she made the right decision

https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/montreal-woman-who-had-late-abortion-says-she-made-the-right-decision

A direct quote from what you sent from the College of physicians " the 2002 guidelines stipulate that late term abortions after 23 weeks are reserved for, "serious congenital anomalies" or "exceptional clinical situations"

There's a difference between preforming necessary medical interventions and elective surgery, "abortion" being the latter. It's like i asked you to show me where the gov't provides boob jobs and you showed me evidence that someone got a mastectomy because of a growth.