Trump actions kill 63 Canadians

[godzilla]

6 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

...and makes your country a NATO deadbeat.  The bastard said so, right ?

and Trump wants the NATO deadbeats to help out in the middle east! for what? to make things right again? cause he can't do that? hahaha! oh the sudden realization that international allies maybe aren't such a bad idea... but too late for Donald. maybe Russia can help?

Edited January 15, 2020 by godzilla

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, godzilla said:

and Trump wants the NATO deadbeats to help out in the middle east! for what? to make things right again? cause he can't do that? hahaha! oh the sudden realization that international allies maybe aren't such a bad idea... but too late for Donald. maybe Russia can help?

 

Trump has already shamed the NATO deadbeats like Canada into increasing defence spending....Canada will scream and bitch about it...but you have to pay to play.

Trudeau and SNC Lavalin really want to keep those big fat juicy oil services contracts in Iraq.

[Dougie93]

2 hours ago, godzilla said:

Canadians bitch. people who were born here, lived here, were loved by families... here.

caused by iranian missiles, caused by trumps escalations.

If you go back to Iran on your Iranian passport, you are Iranian, and you took your chances.

[Dougie93]

9 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Were Canadian nationals advised not to travel in the area ?

The GoC just updated its travel warning to "avoid unnecessary travel to Iran"

Typical Canadian 'national security' ; day late and a dollar short.

Edited January 15, 2020 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

The Canadian media is in overdrive trying to convince me that this was like a bunch of Quebecois being shot down by America over New Brunswick

Reality check, Iranians who are dual citizens travel back to Iran at their own risk.

 

[WestCanMan]

5 hours ago, godzilla said:

glad we're all in agreement that Trump just caused the deaths of innocent Canadian civilians and others on that plane.

its a tinderbox and Trump just threw in the match. no need for heads up for anybody... including our troops. he's a military genius, of course.

Funny when a person just says one thing and you know that they voted for Trudeau, if they’re old enough. 

[WestCanMan]

2 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

The GoC just updated its travel warning to "avoid unnecessary travel to Iran"

Typical Canadian 'national security' ; day late and a dollar short.

Lol. Was there ever a good time to fly over Iran?

The only way I’d ever fly over there is if my only other option was to land there. 

[Dougie93]

11 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Lol. Was there ever a good time to fly over Iran?

The only way I’d ever fly over there is if my only other option was to land there. 

Well, don't get me wrong, if someone escapes from Iran to Canada,  I won't send them back

But if they go back of their own free will ; I can't save them from themselves.

You don't enjoy the protection of the Crown in Iranian airspace, you're on your own in there,  if you get caught in the crossfire, that's on you.

Edited January 15, 2020 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

It's like the ridiculous CBC keeps going on and on about "Canadians demand answers !"

No I don't.   I know what happened. 

These people got on a dodgy Ukrainian airline and flew into a war zone, wherein their luck ran out.

High risk lifestyle, death by misadventure.

[kactus]

2 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

It's like the ridiculous CBC keeps going on and on about "Canadians demand answers !"

No I don't.   I know what happened. 

These people got on a dodgy Ukrainian airline and flew into a war zone, wherein their luck ran out.

High risk lifestyle, death by misadventure.

Dougie I have a lot of respect for your style of writing and the posts you share here on MLW.

There were several other flights before this and it begs the question why this particular flight was intercepted by an anti missile? It seems to me that there is a vested interest for the regime to specifically target this airline. After all, it is a Ukrainian airline, not Ghatar Airways where the regime has less negotiation powers as far as their own leverage and financial interests are concerned. I am coming to the way of thinking that perhaps this attack was intentional and am deeply concerned that maybe these 176 poor souls that got caught in the crossfire were used a shield incase of an attack from US. I am not a military man so I wouldn't delve too much into this thought unconsciously incase I will be called a conspiracy theorist...

On a more empathetic level I think it is insensitive to the families of these 176 passengers 63 of whom were Canadians that they were not meant to travel to Iran. They have just lost their loved ones.....We don't know the motive for their trip although the the coincidence with festive season suggests they were there to spend time with their families and loved ones over Christmas. There were several other flights before this flight so the passengers would not have known about the problems on the ground. More importantly the authorities should have closed the airspace, followed the correct protocol and informed passengers.

[Dougie93]

1 hour ago, kactus said:

Dougie I have a lot of respect for your style of writing and the posts you share here on MLW.

There were several other flights before this and it begs the question why this particular flight was intercepted by an anti missile? It seems to me that there is a vested interest for the regime to specifically target this airline. After all, it is a Ukrainian airline, not Ghatar Airways where the regime has less negotiation powers as far as their own leverage and financial interests are concerned. I am coming to the way of thinking that perhaps this attack was intentional and am deeply concerned that maybe these 176 poor souls that got caught in the crossfire were used a shield incase of an attack from US. I am not a military man so I wouldn't delve too much into this thought unconsciously incase I will be called a conspiracy theorist...

On a more empathetic level I think it is insensitive to the families of these 176 passengers 63 of whom were Canadians that they were not meant to travel to Iran. They have just lost their loved ones.....We don't know the motive for their trip although the the coincidence with festive season suggests they were there to spend time with their families and loved ones over Christmas. There were several other flights before this flight so the passengers would not have known about the problems on the ground. More importantly the authorities should have closed the airspace, followed the correct protocol and informed passengers.

I don't have any evidence that it is was an intentional shoot down, and as a military man, I would say these sorts of incidents are rather common, in war zones.

Moreover, with the sort of air defenses the Iranians deploy, which is point defense rather than an integrated system, it's quite easy for them to make these sorts of mistakes.

In terms of protocol, there is no protocol in Iran, if you want protocol, it's best to remain inside the North Atlantic Security Zone where the air policing is run by NATO.

Again, Tehran is an inherently dangerous place,  176 people killed ?  The regime just shot over 1500 innocent protestors to death in November. 

They kidnap and torture people with abandon, they slaughter people indiscriminately  by terrorist attack, they hang people from cranes in public executions.

It certainly is tragic, misadventure generally is, but you are not protected by Canada nor America when you travel to Iran

You are choosing to enter an active war zone, and it has been active for some time, so claiming that you were not aware is not credible.

Iran is inciting a war against Israel, from Iranian territory, all the way across Iraq and the Levant to south Lebanon.

This is why the IRGC calls its elite formation the Quds Force.   "Quds" is the Arabic name of Jerusalem. 

It's the 'Jerusalem Force', because Jerusalem is their target objective. 

So this war zone is across that entire area, if you're concerned about being caught in the crossfire, stay away.

I don't know whose relatives in Iran are telling them to come and visit, but if it was me, I would have told them to stay home, because Iran is very dangerous.

This is not to say that these people deserved their fate, but they were none the less responsible for it, as going back and forth from Tehran is high risk.

Edited January 15, 2020 by Dougie93

[godzilla]

On 1/14/2020 at 8:26 PM, Dougie93 said:

If you go back to Iran on your Iranian passport, you are Iranian, and you took your chances.

crass disregard for the lives of innocent people who often have no choice but to travel because of family.

[Dougie93]

44 minutes ago, godzilla said:

crass disregard for the lives of innocent people who often have no choice but to travel because of family.

C'est la guerre.

[Dougie93]

In days of yore, they said steel your hearts for war, the contemporary term of art is compartmentalization

[godzilla]

58 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

C'est la guerre.

are we at war? as always... the innocent suffer most. funny how Trump is soooo silent on the matter. no, not funny, very telling.

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, godzilla said:

are we at war? as always... the innocent suffer most. funny how Trump is soooo silent on the matter. no, not funny, very telling.

While I compartmentalize for war, I do not exploit the deaths of these people for partisan political screeds. 

[Dougie93]

As to Canada being at war, Canadian Forces are deployed to Iraq and Iran presents a mortal threat to them, so perhaps not war, but certainly in harms way.

The IRGC Quds Force is a formidable opponent, neither America nor her military allies can afford not to contain them while in theater.

If you are want to go over the trace on your Iranian passport, that is your prerogative, but you're on your own there when you do, good luck to you.

There is risk inherent to all military operations, the Quds Force is a clear and present threat throughout the theater at all times, deterrence must be maintained

Those traveling into this war zone need be advised, operations are ongoing,  immediate actions may occur without notice, you are not assured safe passage.

General Soleimani was an adversary conducting unlawful hostilities against Canadian Forces, at the strategic level, America their only protector.

I do not begrudge America's stalwart defense against the IRGC,  I thank her for her service.

Edited January 16, 2020 by Dougie93

[Rue]

On 1/14/2020 at 10:53 PM, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Trump has already shamed the NATO deadbeats like Canada into increasing defence spending....Canada will scream and bitch about it...but you have to pay to play.

Trudeau and SNC Lavalin really want to keep those big fat juicy oil services contracts in Iraq.

You are dead on as to the last sentence. Hey we may have to babysit Harry. 

Edited January 16, 2020 by Rue

[Army Guy]

On 1/14/2020 at 11:49 PM, godzilla said:

and Trump wants the NATO deadbeats to help out in the middle east! for what? to make things right again? cause he can't do that? hahaha! oh the sudden realization that international allies maybe aren't such a bad idea... but too late for Donald. maybe Russia can help?

Still don't get the point , Trump and the US are getting tired of paying for all the protection they provide...and they want the dead beats to pony up...Canadians are always pointing the finger at Uncle Sam for creating shit storms ,...well here is your chance Canada , to stand up and take the lead try to solve the problems that we have been so critical about...OooHHH wait, we have not taken a stand on anything really, have we, our word is worth shit, we have signed onto treaties and policies at NATO, the UN, NORAD and countless others and then the next day told the world through words or actions that Phack no we ain't doing that....Nope all we do is watch and complain as others take action....what trump should have said is told Canada to sit the Phack down you whinny bastards...your benched until you can provide something of value to anything really...Take pride in that Canada , while the rest of us hang our heads in shame....

Edited January 16, 2020 by Army Guy

[Dougie93]

4 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Still don't get the point , Trump and the US are getting tired of paying for all the protection they provide...and they want the dead beats to pony up...Canadians are always pointing the finger at Uncle Sam for creating shit storms ,...well here is your chance Canada , to stand up and take the lead try to solve the problems that we have been so critical about...OooHHH wait, we have not taken a stand on anything really, have we, our word is worth shit, we have signed onto treaties and policies at NATO, the UN, NORAD and countless others and then the next day told the world through words or actions that Phack no we ain't doing that....Nope all we do is watch and complain as others take action....what trump should have said is told Canada to sit the Phack down you whinny bastards...your benched until you can provide something of value to anything really...Take pride in that Canada , while the rest of us hang our heads in shame....

Hear, hear.

[Dougie93]

You'll note how the Progressive media led by the CBC frames this as America v. Iran with Canada as a neutral.

This is simply not the case, Canada is with America, against Iran, Canada is fully complicit in all actions taken in the theater, as a member of the coalition.

[godzilla]

14 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Still don't get the point , Trump and the US are getting tired of paying for all the protection they provide...and they want the dead beats to pony up...Canadians are always pointing the finger at Uncle Sam for creating shit storms ,...well here is your chance Canada , to stand up and take the lead try to solve the problems that we have been so critical about...OooHHH wait, we have not taken a stand on anything really, have we, our word is worth shit, we have signed onto treaties and policies at NATO, the UN, NORAD and countless others and then the next day told the world through words or actions that Phack no we ain't doing that....Nope all we do is watch and complain as others take action....what trump should have said is told Canada to sit the Phack down you whinny bastards...your benched until you can provide something of value to anything really...Take pride in that , while the rest of us hang our heads in shame....

sorry, did Trump promise to get out of the middle east or do something about it? i'm confused.

iran had an agreement with P5+1. are you implying that Canada should have negotiated its own deal with iran? here's an idea... want Canada to have a real say? then make us a member of the UN security council! oh yeah... the big guys aren't going to allow some small state to have an equal say. Trump can complain all he likes about NATO members not ponying up... the US is the biggest arms dealer in the world. NATO spends way too much compared to any of their adversaries... its just a cash cow that US arms manufacturers want to increase profits from.

what Trump should be saying is "i'm going to safe US tax payers a bundle and reduce our NATO spending to that percentage of GDP that other countries are"... oh, but thats not good for US business! so, not happening.

Edited January 16, 2020 by godzilla

[Dougie93]

The United Nations Security Council is an American institution founded by FDR

The paradigm of America v UN Canada is a false dichotomy

[Dougie93]

6 minutes ago, godzilla said:

sorry, did Trump promise to get out of the middle east or do something about it? i'm confused.

iran had an agreement with P5+1. are you implying that Canada should have negotiated its own deal with iran? here's an idea... want Canada to have a real say? then make us a member of the UN security council! oh yeah... the big guys aren't going to allow some small state to have an equal say. Trump can complain all he likes about NATO members not ponying up... the US is the biggest arms dealer in the world. NATO spends way too much compared to any of their adversaries... its just a cash cow that US arms manufacturers want to increase profits from.

what Trump should be saying is "i'm going to safe US tax payers a bundle and reduce our NATO spending to that percentage of GDP that other countries are"... oh, but thats not good for US business! so, not happening.

All part and parcel of the false Liberal narrative of a Canadian foreign policy independent of Washington by way of the UN.

Not actually the case, the UN is all inclusive to America's foreign policy, Canada no longer has a foreign policy, it's entirely rhetorical at this juncture.

[godzilla]

i might add that if Trump doesn't like the Iran deal he has every right to introduce modifications... he has not. he has no ideas. all he does is tear up existing agreements and then introduce new ones that are 95% the old ones with 5% window dressing and call it the best deal ever. the guy has no ideas.