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What to do about China


Argus

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17 minutes ago, taxme said:

I am still waiting to hear from some of our dear leaders as to what are they going to do about those two Canadians stuck in some Chinese communist gulag. It seems that with our brave and tough dear leaders in Canada, they have left those two Canadians to try and defend for themselves. There is no Canadian politician willing to come to their aid. Just let this be a lesson to all you Canadians out there. Don't go to China. You may be next to get arrested and end up in some Chinese communist gulag. Hey, you never know. 

Same thing happened to Kevin & Julia Garratt a couple of years ago after living in China some 30 odd years.   My guess is the Michael's will be home sometime next year.  

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9 minutes ago, Cannucklehead said:

Same thing happened to Kevin & Julia Garratt a couple of years ago after living in China some 30 odd years.   My guess is the Michael's will be home sometime next year.  

Maybe, but it will all depend as to when that communist agent Asian woman is freed. I do not believe that they will be freed until that woman is freed. It would be great to have them come home soon, but with our dear leader politicians being their defense lawyers, I think that they just may lose their case for them, and be stuck in some Chinese gulag for a very long time to come yet. During the elections, those two men were never mentioned at all. They should have been. As far as I can gather, most Canadians could careless either. When was the last time we heard anyone or the media mention their names? They appear to be just casualty's of war. I wonder what will happen to them if Canada does hand her over to the Americans? Then I think that those two men will be in serious trouble with the Chinese communist government.  

Canada is truly stuck between a rock and a hard place. Piss the Americans off, and there may be retaliation and sanctions, if they let here go free and send her back to China. if Canada sends her too America, then the Chinese communists will be pissed off with Canada, and no doubt will retaliate. Personally, I would go with America. America could make it harder for Canada, then China could ever do. Aw well. ;)

 

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7 hours ago, Rue said:

All China understands us brute force. We should send every international student from China back to China. That they would understand. Enough is enough.

 

I see you'd like to escalate the situation.

And I hope level heads are at work de-escalating.

Different approaches, but I think mine is closer to how Canada has succeeded best in the past. 

International students bring money and jobs to Canadians. I just don't believe you're thinking this through. 

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23 minutes ago, Argus said:

They won't be dead. The Chinese only care about them as bargaining chips. Killing them would be counter-productive. But anyway, it was their choice to go live in China. Both were big fans of Asian dictatorships. Kind of ironic they get grabbed up by one.

The one guy was grabbed up just days after the arrest of Meng. There's some irony there. The Chinese recently announced that the men are going to trial to face trial and prosecution.

Case of detained Canadians Kovrig and Spavor sent for ‘review and prosecution,’ China says

The Chinese embassy in Ottawa marked the men’s year in detention with a sternly-worded statement that defended their incarceration and reiterated demands that Canada release Huawei executive Meng Wanzhou.

and yet the Chinese insist that these detentions are not linked. Clearly that is utter BS. Perhaps they won't be executed in the current situation, but execution is a possible punishment for the charges they face. Chinese have essentially stated their fate depends on what happens to Meng Wazoo.

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19 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

The one guy was grabbed up just days after the arrest of Meng. There's some irony there. The Chinese recently announced that the men are going to trial to face trial and prosecution.

Case of detained Canadians Kovrig and Spavor sent for ‘review and prosecution,’ China says

The Chinese embassy in Ottawa marked the men’s year in detention with a sternly-worded statement that defended their incarceration and reiterated demands that Canada release Huawei executive Meng Wanzhou.

and yet the Chinese insist that these detentions are not linked. Clearly that is utter BS. Perhaps they won't be executed in the current situation, but execution is a possible punishment for the charges they face. Chinese have essentially stated their fate depends on what happens to Meng Wazoo.

If those commies dare execute those two men, then if our elected politicians do nothing about it, then I will have to assume now that our dear leaders have become traitors to Canada and Canadians and that they never gave a real dam at all about them. I would say, execute the communist Meng. Two can play this game. There should not be one Canadian ever go on a vacation to China. If one does then they are just as bad as our dear leaders. We have many Canadians every year going to communist Cuba and propping up communism in that country. I keep asking myself this question all the time? Do Canadians really give a chit about anything ever? They appear to be enthralled with communist countries, and never say a bad word about communist countries like China or Cuba. But for some strange unknown crazy reason, they will attack and mock American democracy every chance they get. Go figure, eh? 

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5 minutes ago, Nefarious Banana said:

What happened to the Canadian f'tard arrested in China as a drug smuggler . . . . . was about the same time as the Michaels ?  

I kinda of doubt anybody should concern themselves about that drug smuggling azz hole. I despise people who use or distribute drugs. They are contributing to crime and money to gangs and drug cartels which result in tens of thousands of people being either beaten, robbed or murdered every year. If I had my way, I would do what they do to drug smugglers in Singapour? Hang them. The Chinese are behind and the main pushers of Fentanyl into North America where thousands of people are dying from that drug every year, but yet are dear political leaders still want to do business with those commie batards. It's not hard to see that our dear leaders really have their heads in the clouds, and maybe are all on some kind of drugs,.and appear to be quite clueless as to what to do about anything. But of course when it comes to raising more taxes, creating more government, and taking away more freedom, well they do really excel in that department. They have become experts in those fields. Bloody shocking indeed. 

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1 hour ago, Nefarious Banana said:

What happened to the Canadian f'tard arrested in China as a drug smuggler . . . . . was about the same time as the Michaels ?  

He appealed his death sentence in the summer, then nothing has been heard about it since.

Th Chinese legal system is completely arbitrary, if they really meant to execute him, they'd have done it by now.

This is all just posturing by the Chinese, they have been caught off guard by this whole situation of their cronies in Ottawa not doing their bidding without hesitation.

 

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21 hours ago, jacee said:

I see you'd like to escalate the situation.

And I hope level heads are at work de-escalating.

Sucking up to the Chinese, you mean? Bowing and scraping?

And here I thought you didn't like Fascists.

21 hours ago, jacee said:

International students bring money and jobs to Canadians. I just don't believe you're thinking this through. 

They crowd out Canadians, and make for an environment where half the class is made up of foreigners who speak little English and don't socialize with Canadians. Get rid of them all, cut the number of high paid bureaucrats and administrators at the universities by two thirds, and that will make up for the loss of money.

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On 12/12/2019 at 3:23 PM, Argus said:

Sucking up to the Chinese, you mean? Bowing and scraping?

I see you don't understand diplomacy. Not surprising. It's about maintaining human relationships, up close, about purpose: health and safety for all people. 

You really think it's a good idea for Canada to try to incite a war with China? 

Shooters think the only answer is to kill people and then kill themselves. 

Sociopaths giggle in glee at the carnage they provoke. 

Soldiers are programmed to follow orders for Canada's glory, but not 'why': For the profits of the few money elites. 

People are broken body and mind broken physically mentally by betrayal

By sociopaths who, without regulation and direction, destroy the earth and it's people. 

Great idea. Lol

 

 

On 12/12/2019 at 3:23 PM, Argus said:

And here I thought you didn't like Fascists.

I don't like fascists in Canada. 

Elsewhere ... diplomacy is better than war. 

 

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1 hour ago, jacee said:

I see you don't understand diplomacy. Not surprising. It's about maintaining human relationships, up close, about purpose: health and safety for all people. 

With a fascist regime which puts people in concentration camps and harvests organs from live political prisoners?

1 hour ago, jacee said:

You really think it's a good idea for Canada to try to incite a war with China? 

I'm not sure if you really want to take the position that the only alternatives available in any relationship is open war or complete submission. We don't need to start a war with China to force them to stop shipping fentanyl to us. We just have to stop buying their crap.

 

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3 hours ago, Argus said:

With a fascist regime which puts people in concentration camps and harvests organs from live political prisoners?

I'm not sure if you really want to take the position that the only alternatives available in any relationship is open war or complete submission. We don't need to start a war with China to force them to stop shipping fentanyl to us. We just have to stop buying their crap.

Argus is with me %100 on taking a hard line with China.

Finally.

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The best way to counter China is to create a massive trading block that requires adherence to rules on labour conditions, wages, human rights, and the environment for countries to have non-tariffed trade.  Basically if you want to do free trade with countries like Canada, the US, and Britain, you need to meet these standards.  

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23 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

The best way to counter China is to create a massive trading block that requires adherence to rules on labour conditions, wages, human rights, and the environment for countries to have non-tariffed trade.  Basically if you want to do free trade with countries like Canada, the US, and Britain, you need to meet these standards.  

 

Sounds good in theory, but not a practical solution for all trading economies, stage of development, commodities, closed sectors (like Canadian banking), IP theft, transshipments, dumping, etc.

Do you really think Canada would stop trade with the United States if the U.S. failed to meet such standards ?

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On ‎12‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 6:27 PM, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Trump exposed Canada's trade and economic vulnerabilities for what they are, regardless of the ensuing China/Meng backlash for Canadian exports.   Getting resources to global markets and breaking down inter-provincial trade barriers should be an obvious priority regardless of ruling party, even if that means federal action over the usual objections and stalling.   Was never a big fan of PM Pierre Trudeau, but he would have done far more...."just watch me".

Trump exposed nothing. Trade and economic vulnerabilities pre-existed and will continue to exist long after Trump is gone and they are a phenomena that manifest themselves not because of what Trump has done or not done. Trump is a gas bag. He is a figurehead. He does nothing that impacts one way or the other on anyone unless they want to be deluded and pretend he does. He's a figment of media imagination because no one really knows the agenda or who is running things. The powers behind the market places determine economy not Trump. He can't read or write. He is a clueless gas bag.

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50 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

The best way to counter China is to create a massive trading block that requires adherence to rules on labour conditions, wages, human rights, and the environment for countries to have non-tariffed trade.  Basically if you want to do free trade with countries like Canada, the US, and Britain, you need to meet these standards.  

The best way to counter China's monopolies would be to simply not purchase their products and stop agreeing to sell them.

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26 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Sounds good in theory, but not a practical solution for all trading economies, stage of development, commodities, closed sectors (like Canadian banking), IP theft, transshipments, dumping, etc.

Do you really think Canada would stop trade with the United States if the U.S. failed to meet such standards ?

Oh I have no illusions that the standards would have to be established around US interests, but if the countries in the block would benefit both from the standards and trade, then those interests are more or less in everyone’s interests.  Canada is good at this kind of work and had major input into USMCA.  Probably the most important part of that deal is the minimum wage for auto production in Mexico.  While Mexico might not get as many auto jobs as they would have without a floor on wages, they will get better jobs, have higher living standards, and ultimately become a better market for US and Canadian goods, so it’s a win-win.  You don’t have to be a wealthy country to be part of such a block, as long as you adhere to the rules of the game.  Hell, Russia and China could eventually join.  Their people would benefit from better rights and wages, and finally we could tackle greenhouse gases with a level playing field.  The best incentive for progress is economic, as always.  

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6 minutes ago, Rue said:

Trump exposed nothing. Trade and economic vulnerabilities pre-existed and will continue to exist long after Trump is gone and they are a phenomena that manifest themselves not because of what Trump has done or not done.

 

Really ?    Then why did Canada get so excited about Trump's tariffs on Canada ?   Why did the threat of tariffs on Ontario automotive bring Freeland to her knees ?

Why did Canada scramble after Trump abandoned the TPP and Paris Climate Agreement ?

Trump challenged the NAFTA status quo too, exposing the protectionist policies in some Canadian sectors, and highlighting the very stupid inter-provincial trade barriers that cost Canadians more.

Then there is China....my oh my....Trump sure messed that up for Canada too.

...not too shabby for a foreign "gas bag".

 

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2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Really ?    Then why did Canada get so excited about Trump's tariffs on Canada ?   Why did the threat of tariffs on Ontario automotive bring Freeland to her knees ?

Why did Canada scramble after Trump abandoned the TPP and Paris Climate Agreement ?

Trump challenged the NAFTA status quo too, exposing the protectionist policies in some Canadian sectors, and highlighting the very stupid inter-provincial trade barriers that cost Canadians more.

Then there is China....my oh my....Trump sure messed that up for Canada too.

...not too shabby for a foreign "gas bag".

 

He exposed those vulnerabilities, but he also revealed the US’s international interdependence and just how little he could actually change trade flows through tariffs.  US-based companies have still shifted production to China and people are still buying cheaper Chinese goods despite the tariffs.  People aren’t willing or able to change their buying habits in the name of blocking China because it isn’t economical to do so.  A beefed up, larger trading block could actually force China’s hands because it would substantially raise the cost of doing business not to play ball. 

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4 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

...  You don’t have to be a wealthy country to be part of such a block, as long as you adhere to the rules of the game.  Hell, Russia and China could eventually join.  Their people would benefit from better rights and wages, and finally we could tackle greenhouse gases with a level playing field.  The best incentive for progress is economic, as always.  

 

Which is exactly why it won't work for many developing economies...such "rules" would conflict with many practical realities on the ground.   Also, the large trading block that you envision would have members with very different export trade dependencies and global logistics flow.   Different parts of the world have disparate priorities and limits, making it very difficult to adopt a high order, progressive economic model.

There is a saying in Africa that trumps the best intentions of well-off do-gooders from the west...."If it pays...it stays".    China has specifically targeted this reality and opportunity.

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Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Which is exactly why it won't work for many developing economies...such "rules" would conflict with many practical realities on the ground.   Also, the large trading block that you envision would have members with very different export trade dependencies and global logistics flow.   Different parts of the world have disparate priorities and limits, making it very difficult to adopt a high order, progressive economic model.

There is a saying in Africa that trumps the best intentions of well-off do-gooders from the west...."If it pays...it stays".    China has specifically targeted this reality and opportunity.

True for local trade within Africa and Asia, but the big money is still in Europe and America.  Want to play with the big boys?  You have to pay to play.  I don’t propose heavy, costly rules and regulations.  No way.  That’s the European model and it sucks.  You just need minimum standards that still make economic sense for poorer countries to participate because the benefits of increased trade outweigh the costs to business and taxpayers.  The reality is that we already meet most (all?) of the standards in North America, so basically we’re saying, you want to ship cheap goods here, well they can’t be that cheap because your labour and environmental standards will have to improve.  Otherwise we collect the tariffs and subsidize our own labour and emissions reduction costs.  

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2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

He exposed those vulnerabilities, but he also revealed the US’s international interdependence and just how little he could actually change trade flows through tariffs.  US-based companies have still shifted production to China and people are still buying cheaper Chinese goods despite the tariffs.  People aren’t willing or able to change their buying habits in the name of blocking China because it isn’t economical to do so.  A beefed up, larger trading block could actually force China’s hands because it would substantially raise the cost of doing business not to play ball. 

 

I don't think anybody, including Trump, expected China to be abandoned.   What Trump wanted to do was challenge the existing lopsided approach to imports and balance of trade, and not just for China.   Canada was just another battle in the trade war...it wasn't personal.    Hell, many in Canada criticized the FTA/NAFTA in the first place because it meant exactly what has happened for the sucking sound to Mexico and elsewhere.

Canada is more dependent on export trade than China or the USA, so it is more alarming to have existing trade flows interrupted.    China became the USA's #1 trading partner a few years ago, and both nations are far more diversified for export trade compared to Canada, and can weather the storm far easier.

 

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

I don't think anybody, including Trump, expected China to be abandoned.   What Trump wanted to do was challenge the existing lopsided approach to imports and balance of trade, and not just for China.   Canada was just another battle in the trade war...it wasn't personal.    Hell, many in Canada criticized the FTA/NAFTA in the first place because it meant exactly what has happened for the sucking sound to Mexico and elsewhere.

Canada is more dependent on export trade than China or the USA, so it is more alarming to have existing trade flows interrupted.    China became the USA's #1 trading partner a few years ago, and both nations are far more diversified for export trade compared to Canada, and can weather the storm far easier.

 

 

 

 

Don’t forget that Canada is still your biggest export market.  Yes Canada has too much reliance on exports as a small country, particularly to one country.  China is the US’s largest import trading partner.  That’s the problem.  Canada and most of the west are in the same boat.  You’re also right about China’s inroads into Africa and Central Asia.  China is expanding its labour market and business profits by redeveloping poor countries and sending them the bill.  Essentially China is the new public utility sheriff.  Pay or have your water cut off.  The Boy Scout countries don’t even think about such opportunities because their stricter standards prevent it.  Look at the fate of SNC Lavelin...

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