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What to do about China


Argus

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On 2/26/2021 at 10:49 PM, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

What happens ?   The U.S. will still have plenty of carriers...plus cruise missile platforms and forward deployed aircraft squadrons to join in the fun.   The heavy bombers will take a while longer to get to the party.

After the dust settles, Canada's weak government can get back to asking about the Two Michaels...again.  

 

 

With the coming of age of ships like the USS America, the Navy need not risk fleet carriers in roles best suited for an escort carrier. That and those cruise missile boomers you were describing...Georgia, Florida, etc...they can ruin ANY country's day without a blip of radiation. And just try and stop 'em!

I can only imagine we'll be seeing more older subs converted in such a way.

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How and why to contain the Chinese and their ambitions to take over the world is the subject of an interesting article in Unherd.

This time, there has to be a better response to Xi Jinping’s “Belt and Road Initiative”, which is building ports, highways and rail lines around the world. The current global response amounts to little more than quoting Proverbs 22:7 — “the borrower is slave to the lender” — to countries desperately in need of investment. The World Bank has degenerated into a provider of very high tax-free salaries to employees who hold up even modest projects with impossible environmental, indigenous rights and rate-of-return demands.

So, there is room for a “strategic infrastructures” initiative by the US and Japan with Australia, Canada, India the UK, and other members of the China-containment coalition. To cite a very obvious example, a Calcutta-Haiphong road and rail project would provide a horizontal alternative to China’s north-south influence vectors for Bangladesh, Myanmar, and Laos while connecting India and Vietnam, who are already cooperating at sea to resist China.

At a time when Mr Musk can invest $1 billion in the digital abstraction of bitcoin, a “coalition bank” should be able to outcompete China’s investments. George Kennan managed to wake the world up to the threat of the Soviet Union. Our leaders are awake to China. Truly ambitious action on a Marshall-like scale must follow.

https://unherd.com/2021/02/we-dont-need-a-long-telegram-on-china/

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18 hours ago, Army Guy said:

 

There are going to be lots of people who will survive, the politicians and elite will be in bunkers, you and me, will be dead within weeks, maybe months, but not from radiation poisoning but rather when law and order takes a nose dive, and the strong will take from the weak until we destroy each other from within as resources become scarce,

NO they won't! Or at least they won't survive much longer than it takes to die in one of those advanced underground shelters they're building all over the world. 

So far, most of the global elites have been buying up land in New Zealand, because a whole range of climate heating projections for the future, show the Northern Hemisphere....the half of the world with the most land, the most carbon-producing industries and machines (including cars), will once again lose all of its ice before the southern reaches (Antarctic) of the Antarctica melt. And, since the south is heating up a little more slowly than the north, the worst case climate scenarios that feature massive fires burning out mid to northern latitude forests every year, along with increasingly higher levels of stored carbon release of CO2 and methane from permafrost ground, along with methane ice (clathrates) rising to the surface of the melting Arctic Ocean. 

Quote

So Who cares , everything in this topic is beyond our control....Did you really think you where going to live forever....Remember when you see the bright flash stand up face into the light, and within milliseconds you and your body will be nothing more than dust in the wind, or in this case blast wave...

You just contradicted yourself from the first paragraph, where you think the elites can survive the worst of any nuclear war by hiding in bunkers. 

But, if a moderate to full nuclear launch leaves a black sky that will block the sun for several years (Nuclear Winter), then they will have to spend the rest of their lives in their underground tubes until they run out of oxygen, water and supplies. Was this Gates's or Branson's, or new guy- Elon's vision of the future when they started plotting their path to riches and power?

Whether by sudden nuclear annihilation or much sooner than expected mass extinction caused by a rapidly deteriorating climate, I sure as hell don't like the prospects of dying, while the worst of the human race live on and have any chance to rebuild. I think this is why they took a sudden interest in the faint hope of living on Mars or in space colonies. They'd rather spend their billions there than doing what's needed to prevent mass extinction here. 

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3 hours ago, Argus said:

How and why to contain the Chinese and their ambitions to take over the world is the subject of an interesting article in Unherd.

This time, there has to be a better response to Xi Jinping’s “Belt and Road Initiative”, which is building ports, highways and rail lines around the world. The current global response amounts to little more than quoting Proverbs 22:7 — “the borrower is slave to the lender” — to countries desperately in need of investment. The World Bank has degenerated into a provider of very high tax-free salaries to employees who hold up even modest projects with impossible environmental, indigenous rights and rate-of-return demands.

So, there is room for a “strategic infrastructures” initiative by the US and Japan with Australia, Canada, India the UK, and other members of the China-containment coalition. To cite a very obvious example, a Calcutta-Haiphong road and rail project would provide a horizontal alternative to China’s north-south influence vectors for Bangladesh, Myanmar, and Laos while connecting India and Vietnam, who are already cooperating at sea to resist China.

At a time when Mr Musk can invest $1 billion in the digital abstraction of bitcoin, a “coalition bank” should be able to outcompete China’s investments. George Kennan managed to wake the world up to the threat of the Soviet Union. Our leaders are awake to China. Truly ambitious action on a Marshall-like scale must follow.

https://unherd.com/2021/02/we-dont-need-a-long-telegram-on-china/

Rather than read or listen to another Washington think tank generated propaganda piece created to scare us   again about 'The Yellow Peril', I'd rather have the same scrutiny applied at the military/economic empire to our south that controls the world, and started hitting the panic button when they realized that a rival to their power might be rising out of the east! 

If I was living in the 4th century when the corrupt, despotic Roman Empire was collapsing, I wouldn't have been cheering them on either! Instead I would be pulling for either a collapse or a swift drawback from dangerous militarism and economic policies, that's all!

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On 2/27/2021 at 10:11 AM, Argus said:

At least he won't be on his knees felating Putin.

The lawyers and judges would never allow it. For that matter, China could start executing random Canadians by the dozens and our lawyers and judges would forbid any kind of retaliation against Chinese citizens in Canada. Hell, we'd have to go through multi-year court battles just to deport them if they didn't choose to leave. 

We are not equipped to go tit for tat with dictatorships. We don't even retaliate against their officials when they come here and virtually spit on us.

Things such as this actually DO happen, but through back channels and completely out of sight.  Spooks tend to be camera shy.

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On 2/27/2021 at 2:59 PM, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

The U.S. can have both...leadership and a forward deployed, potent military...Canada has neither.   Canada's government could have taken far stronger measures than just Meng's living quarters and extradition outcome (e.g. expulsions, 5G decision, consulates, air travel, student visas, etc.) but it chooses not too.   Therefore no reason for China to budge.

Should have worked out a trade long ago, instead of hiding behind the "rule of law".

agreed.  It is just as you will now experience with slow Joe - time to kiss commie ass.

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On 2/25/2021 at 12:55 PM, Altai said:


Yes, he is connected to very interesting people and groups. Just like an agent should be. 

Altai,  Pastor Andrew Brunson is on the Jimmy Bakker TV show this morning telling his story of what happened.  He spent 23 years in Turkey as a missionary for God and Jesus Christ.  I wish you could hear him.  He is a sincere Christian.  He described his 2 years in prison.  He believes he was arrested to send a message to anyone thinking of coming to Turkey as a Christian missionary.  He said he then believed it was changed and he became a bargaining chip to deal with the U.S.  He mostly is describing his time in prison.  He said he was surrounded by Muslims and told repeatedly every day that he will become a Muslim.  He suffered incredible mental torment and stress as he struggled through that time.  He at times questioned whether God had left him, but of course even if he felt forsaken by God, God was still there with him.  As the Bible says, "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee".  He wrote a book "God's Hostage" which I might get.  It is available on Amazon, as a soft cover book and a kindle book.  This is the true story of Andrew Brunson's persecution as a Christian.

 

It is also noteworthy that on the last day Pastor Andrew Brunson was in Turkey, he was convicted of terrorism, then immediately released from prison (by order of Turkey's President), taken to an aircraft, and flown directly to the White House to meet with President Trump.  He then kneeled before President Trump, laid his hand on his shoulder, and prayed for the President.  I just saw him praying for President Trump on the Jimmy Bakker program.

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2 hours ago, blackbird said:

Altai,  Pastor Andrew Brunson is on the Jimmy Bakker TV show this morning telling his story of what happened.  He spent 23 years in Turkey as a missionary for God and Jesus Christ.  I wish you could hear him.  He is a sincere Christian.  He described his 2 years in prison.  He believes he was arrested to send a message to anyone thinking of coming to Turkey as a Christian missionary.  He said he then believed it was changed and he became a bargaining chip to deal with the U.S.  He mostly is describing his time in prison.  He said he was surrounded by Muslims and told repeatedly every day that he will become a Muslim.  He suffered incredible mental torment and stress as he struggled through that time.  He at times questioned whether God had left him, but of course even if he felt forsaken by God, God was still there with him.  As the Bible says, "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee".  He wrote a book "God's Hostage" which I might get.  It is available on Amazon, as a soft cover book and a kindle book.  This is the true story of Andrew Brunson's persecution as a Christian.

 

It is also noteworthy that on the last day Pastor Andrew Brunson was in Turkey, he was convicted of terrorism, then immediately released from prison (by order of Turkey's President), taken to an aircraft, and flown directly to the White House to meet with President Trump.  He then kneeled before President Trump, laid his hand on his shoulder, and prayed for the President.  I just saw him praying for President Trump on the Jimmy Bakker program.

You'll be happy to know that Turkey is a US and Israeli ally and a member of NATO. And also worth noting that the US proxy forces recruited and cultivated by CIA field agents come from the most extreme and violent Muslim activist groups, which have especially targeted and killed Christians and other non-Muslim (or not the right kind of Muslim) minorities in Syria and Iraq.  That's how much politicians and government apparatchiks care about Christians or so called Christian values!

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23 hours ago, blackbird said:

Altai,  Pastor Andrew Brunson is on the Jimmy Bakker TV show this morning telling his story of what happened.  He spent 23 years in Turkey as a missionary for God and Jesus Christ.  I wish you could hear him.  He is a sincere Christian.  He described his 2 years in prison.  He believes he was arrested to send a message to anyone thinking of ............


It is not the true story, it is what the agent is probably ordered to tell people. So what do you expect ? Do you think he will say "Yes I was operating under priest cover in Turkiye since long and finally I was caught after our last failed coup attempt and after cleaning of thousands of officials in the army and in the govt departments that work for US"

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2 hours ago, Altai said:


It is not the true story, it is what the agent is probably ordered to tell people. So what do you expect ? Do you think he will say "Yes I was operating under priest cover in Turkiye since long and finally I was caught after our last failed coup attempt and after cleaning of thousands of officials in the army and in the govt departments that work for US"

 

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On 3/1/2021 at 5:56 PM, Right To Left said:

You'll be happy to know that Turkey is a US and Israeli ally and a member of NATO.


Well, for now but they can see the way the wind is blowing:

Quote

In a major milestone, the first train carrying goods from Turkey to China departed from Istanbul Friday.

“The first whistle from Çerkezköy, from where the train departed, is a harbinger of a new era for our country,” Transport and Infrastructure Minister Adil Karaismailoğlu said during the sendoff ceremony at the Kazlıçeşme station on Istanbul’s European side.

Covering 8,693 kilometers (5,402 miles) and passing through two continents, two seas and five countries, the train will forward its freight to China in 12 days, Karaismailoğlu said.
 

https://www.dailysabah.com/business/economy/1st-china-bound-freight-train-departs-on-12-day-journey-from-istanbul


 

Quote

The rail freight service from Istanbul to Xi’an is now a regular on the timetables. The first China-bound train from Turkey departed on 4 December last year, and the second has just arrived in the centrally located Chinese hub. The service will run twice a month.

https://www.railfreight.com/beltandroad/2021/01/07/turkeys-train-to-china-regular-on-the-2021-timetable/?gdpr=accept

 

It’s curious that Erdogan has become much less concerned about the Uighurs of late. 

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On 3/4/2021 at 8:58 PM, Shady said:

AC87D69C-139D-456B-9B84-E687DEA76B1F.jpeg

So, Conservatives are feeling buyer's remorse for the "Free Trade" policies they pushed on us under Reagan and Mulroo back in the 80's!

And let's not forget that after the quagmire China experienced following the Tien An Mien Massacre, it was Herbert Walker Bush who told America and the Limbaugh crowd in particular, that ending China's "Favored Nation" trade status would be a big mistake. Some blather about a world of trading nations wouldn't be at war with each other because of mutual economic interest. And that open trade encourages democracy and peaceful relations with other nations just by virtue of becoming trading partners.

Not sure how they explained away that First World War problem that featured the trading nations of Europe sending out troops to kill young soldiers of their trading "allies."  Maybe Neoconservative propaganda was easier to digest back in the 80's -- when at least half the population was gaining in wealth. While today, the winners are a tiny and shrinking segment of the population.....unless you live in China.

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3 hours ago, Right To Left said:

1. Conservatives are feeling buyer's remorse for the "Free Trade" policies they pushed on us under Reagan and Mulroo back in the 80's!

2. And that open trade encourages democracy and peaceful relations with other nations just by virtue of becoming trading partners.

3. Not sure how they explained away that First World War problem that featured the trading nations of Europe sending out troops to kill young soldiers of their trading "allies."  

1. Shhhhh !  The Conservative parties are now "anti Globalist".... sort of.
2. Honestly, many people who said this are changing their minds.  
3. Which side came up with "The Internationale" ?  You are making points, but throwing a boomerang as neither left-right have solid positions on trade, and both have switched several times.

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18 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Shhhhh !  The Conservative parties are now "anti Globalist".... sort of.
2. Honestly, many people who said this are changing their minds.  
3. Which side came up with "The Internationale" ?  You are making points, but throwing a boomerang as neither left-right have solid positions on trade, and both have switched several times.

1. I don't believe most conservatives back in the 80's (when the conservative leadership class reversed polarity on trade) were ever 'globalists' back then. But being authoritarian by nature, they just followed orders from St. Ronnie and his Canadian emissary here - Mulroo...who never had close to the same level of trust and respect from frontline conservatives, but were willing to go along because they had so many convinced that their economic policy ideas were right. 

The problem for the right today is that the grassroots level no longer trusts any rightwing billionaires to represent anything beyond their own narrow interests. In the US, the great regret from hated and despised RNC leaders is that their party never set up an undemocratic equivalent the Democrats have -- the "SUPER" delegates (patronage bagmen parachuted in to provide a weighting of the scale in favour of big money, in case a quasi-leftist leader comes along and raises havoc. i.e. upsets the coronation of the expected leader the donor class had already decided on: 2016 Hillary Clinton, and Slow Joe for 2020. 

*side issue, but if Bernie was a real populist at least, he would have refused to go along with the manipulations of both elections/but unfortunately revealed himself as a fake "independent!"

But, love em or hate em, the Republicans have a much closer proximity to democracy than the party that misappropriates the title! And it's likely because the GOP has become so angry and unruly, that the monied classes (except for the oil lobby) have shifted their $$$$ to the easily controlled and manipulated party....I don't need to tell you who that is, do I?

2. It's good when minds change.

3. Neither! The Internationale was created by an unknown writer at the First Internationale -- a large gathering of leftist worker activists, who gathered in Paris in 1864. According to legend, the song's lyrics were partially taken from a preamble written for those gathered and sung at the end of the session to try to maintain unity among the group of about 8 different leftist tendencies who had different ideas about government and how to carry out an international workers revolution. 

Has the song ever been played at a Democrat convention? They may be able to appropriate "We Shall Overcome" for their own purposes, but Democrats trying to appropriate the Internationale would be take balls of steel!

First stanza:

Stand up, damned of the Earth
Stand up, prisoners of starvation
Reason thunders in its volcano
This is the eruption of the end.
Of the past let us make a clean slate
Enslaved masses, stand up, stand up.
The world is about to change its foundation
We are nothing, let us be all.

Chorus
This is the final struggle
Let us group together, and tomorrow
The Internationale
Will be the human race.

 

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The prospect of a world dominated by the CCP is utterly horrific. David Goldman offers a few suggestions as to how one might postpone such an event at the end of a decidedly pessimistic article:

Quote

Can America remain the world’s most powerful, productive, and innovative country? We have faced this challenge before—during World War II, when the Arsenal of Democracy overwhelmed the Axis; during the Space Race, when we overcame an early Russian lead to land men on the moon; and during the Reagan Administration, when the digital revolution leapfrogged Russia’s illusory advantages in military technology. We require a national effort on the scale of John F. Kennedy’s Moonshot and Reagan’s Strategic Defense Initiative to restore America’s decisive edge in high-tech manufacturing and military applications. If we don’t—if China surpasses the United States—we will fade into second-rate status, much like Britain in the 20th century. We will be poorer, weaker, and less secure. The choice is ours, at least for a while.

https://claremontreviewofbooks.com/the-chinese-challenge/

His prescription of investment in high tech (especially less profitable areas) may have some merit but I’m surprised he thinks a bested US, or anybody else for that matter, could expect a genteel, post-WWII British fade in the new order. Any special relationship would be of a brutally asymmetrical kind. We’ve seen the treatment Han Chinese had to endure from their own government since 1949 and what the Uighurs are going through; the gloves will be well and truly off abroad. Socialism with capitalist, robotic and genetically modified characteristics has the potential to bring centuries of truly, madly, deeply harmonious order to our pale blue dot. 
 

 


 

 

 

 

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Xi and the gang aren’t daft. They must know the doctrine of Socialism with Chinese Characteristics is extremely silly and evokes giggles in their own country among some of the world’s most successful capitalists. The only certain way to stifle such laughter and protect the regime is to take over the world. That is the logic we are all trapped in now. 

 

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On 10/10/2019 at 11:17 PM, -1=e^ipi said:

Canada should recognize Taiwan (The Republic of China) as a country and pursue closer ties and free trade with Taiwan. The Republic of China is a wonderful freedom loving country where gay people are even allowed to get married. Better yet, kick gay-killing Brunei out of the TPP and replace it with Taiwan.

Tsai Ing-Wen is a wonderful president and it's a shame that we continue the Trudeau-Senior policy of ignoring the Republic of China and pretend they don't exist.

I fear Taiwan is doomed. A Chinese country where the people have chosen democracy and tolerance is an open rebuke to Beijing’s dreadful alternative. 

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Cansino refused to send vaccines to Canada despite agreement for political reasons, a Canadian researcher told a House of Commons commitee.

‘It was political’: China actively blocked development of CanSino vaccine, MPs learn

A Canadian vaccine researcher says China sent vaccine to five countries staging the third phase of clinical trials — but not Canada

‘It was political’: China actively blocked development of CanSino vaccine, MPs learn | National Post

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On 3/10/2021 at 1:12 AM, SpankyMcFarland said:

I fear Taiwan is doomed. A Chinese country where the people have chosen democracy and tolerance is an open rebuke to Beijing’s dreadful alternative. 

The Chinese are betting the US won't go to war over Taiwan and they're probably right. If the US wants to keep Taiwan from being taken over, a move which would deeply damage American interests, it needs to start flooding the place with anti-ship missiles for the Taiwanese to use. The only thing that's going to stop China is if the price is too high.

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2 hours ago, Argus said:

The Chinese are betting the US won't go to war over Taiwan and they're probably right. If the US wants to keep Taiwan from being taken over, a move which would deeply damage American interests, it needs to start flooding the place with anti-ship missiles for the Taiwanese to use. The only thing that's going to stop China is if the price is too high.


Here are views expressed on war with the US over Taiwan by PRC generals in 1995 and 2005 when the country was much less powerful:

Quote

China should use nuclear weapons against the United States if the American military intervenes in any conflict over Taiwan, a senior Chinese military official said Thursday.


....General Zhu's threat is not the first of its kind from a senior Chinese military official. In 1995, Xiong Guangkai, who is now the deputy chief of the general staff of the People's Liberation Army, told Chas W. Freeman, a former Pentagon official, that China would consider using nuclear weapons in a Taiwan conflict. Mr. Freeman quoted Mr. Xiong as saying that Americans should worry more about Los Angeles than Taipei.

https://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/15/washington/world/chinese-general-threatens-use-of-abombs-if-us-intrudes.html?referringSource=articleShare
 


Apart from its profound symbolic significance, Taiwan has become a crucial player in the semiconductor market:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-01-25/the-world-is-dangerously-dependent-on-taiwan-for-semiconductors

The US needs to ramp up its manufacturing capacity in this area as soon as possible, no matter what the cost; if the PRC develops a stranglehold on high tech we are all done and dusted. Down the road, South Korea and Japan are also uncomfortably close to the world’s awakening giant. 

 

 

 

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21 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Most leaders in Asia are probably more comfortable dealing with the CCP than the Americans. Pesky questions about human rights, rule of law or summary executions just don’t come up with Xi and Co. 

Not to mention they'll send you a hundred million or so under the table if you're the president so you can inflate your Swiss bank account.

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The belief that China does not have international ambitions for its power are simply wrong, Stephen Harper says.

OTTAWA – Former prime minister Stephen Harper said the West needs to be prepared for a more robust and aggressive China going forward in a world where the U.S. may not be so dominant on the international stage.

Harper said the U.S. under both former president Donald Trump and likely continuing under President Joe Biden, is stepping back and that is a major disruption to the international order.

”A huge change that’s occurred, particularly since I left office, has been the United States really stepping away from a lot of its traditional leadership role,” he said. “China is now a competitive rival of the United States across a range of spheres.”

Harper said the conventional wisdom that China did not have global ambitions and would use its economic might internally was incorrect.

“The reading of China was completely wrong by so called China experts for many years. China is not an insular and passive country. It is a large country with hegemonic ambition.”

Stephen Harper warns China likely to be increasingly assertive as U.S. takes less dominant international role | National Post

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