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What to do about China


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8 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

1945. We had a million men and women in the Canadian Forces,

 

Some of those refused to fight outside of Canada, especially in Quebec.  

 

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China faces a hard time even crossing the straits to get to Taiwan. Carrying an invasion force across the pacific, while not impossible, would be daunting.

 

But that isn't the issue here...Canada has been invaded by economic and geopolitical means, with little defence and growing dependencies.

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"There is a 'very credible case' that China is committing genocide against Muslim Uighurs, UK legal experts conclude

  • Group of UK lawyers made the conclusion after reviewing 'sufficient evidence'
  • They also deemed China's treatment of Uighur people crimes against humanity
  • An opinion letter held President Xi personally responsible for China's conduct 
  • It is estimated that more than one million ethnic Muslims have been rounded up
  • The Biden administration also labelled China's policies in Xinjiang as genocide"  - thedailymail.co.uk

Uighur prisoners.jpg

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1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Nevertheless, Canadian Forces had capabilities and could sustain operations that it cannot perform well today.   Canada's previous defence spending included tactical aircraft, capable diesel electric submarine upgrades (British Oberon class), patrol aircraft, Halifax class CODOG frigates built in Canada, etc.   The political will to do these things has all but disappeared...outside NATO pressure is resented....China pressure is tolerated.

 

 

Not going to happen without hard power backing up soft power, even as a collective defence, which Canada continues to keep on a starvation diet. 

 

I know US war planners were unhappy for a very long time with Canada's lack of interest in spending billions on new armaments and projecting military power around the world, but nowadays, Canada is one of the compliant vassal states with NATO membership, and doesn't make waves anymore.

As for this 'hard power' and 'soft power' BS that comes out of Washington think tanks on a continual basis; it's worth noting that the "soft" power is using sanctions and supporting murderous regime change operatives in countries targeted by the US and NATO alliance...it's hardly 'soft' in any real sense of the meaning when more civilians die from the effects of sanctions than from the bombing and drone strikes from "hard" power.

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7 minutes ago, Right To Left said:

I know US war planners were unhappy for a very long time with Canada's lack of interest in spending billions on new armaments and projecting military power around the world, but nowadays, Canada is one of the compliant vassal states with NATO membership, and doesn't make waves anymore.

 

That is Canada's choice...and so are the consequences.   Canada's government freaked out when President Trump called them and other NATO deadbeats on this game.   China is happy to have Canada as a compliant state as well.

 

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As for this 'hard power' and 'soft power' BS that comes out of Washington think tanks on a continual basis; it's worth noting that the "soft" power is using sanctions and supporting murderous regime change operatives in countries targeted by the US and NATO alliance...it's hardly 'soft' in any real sense of the meaning when more civilians die from the effects of sanctions than from the bombing and drone strikes from "hard" power.

 

Those terms didn't come out of Washington....came out of Canada and like minded nations in Europe.   Canada also invented terms like "honest broker", "seat at the table", "responsibility to protect", "peacekeeping", "middle power", etc.

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14 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Blackbird said: "It doesn't really matter who opened relations with China first.  The problem as I've stated was Pierre Trudeau and following governments in Canada as well as other western countries cozied up to Communist China ever since.  It is dealing with a diabiolical system which from the start murdered millions of their own people and always have denied their people human rights.  What is the west think they're doing dealing with China?  Obviously money and international trade always was all that mattered."

Would you be willing to pay $10,000 for an iPhone or an iMac? There are lots of diabolical governments. A few years before I was born, Stalin was our best friend and Emporer Hirohito was the devil incarnate. In a few years, Stalin was the devil and Hirohito was a close ally.   

There has to be some form of justice in the world for crimes against humanity, just as there were war crime trials for the Naziis.  Likewise there has to be trade sanctions for countries guilty of crimes against humanity.  We will have to look elsewhere to trade.

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Trudeau talked to Biden and Biden made the standard statement that the two Michaels must be released.  This has been said over and over by various leaders and is of course ignored by China.  Why would China care if hostage-diplomacy works for them?

When Turkey was holding an American pastor in prison, Trump told Turkey release him or there will be action.  Shortly after Trump ordered trade sanctions to be put on Turkey for certain things.  The Pastor was quickly released.   The question is does Biden have the fortitude to take concrete action and do the same thing?  I doubt it.  It's all hot air.

Edited by blackbird
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1 hour ago, blackbird said:

Trudeau talked to Biden and Biden made the standard statement that the two Michaels must be released.  This has been said over and over by various leaders and is of course ignored by China.  Why would China care if hostage-diplomacy works for them?

When Turkey was holding an American pastor in prison, Trump told Turkey release him or there will be action.  Shortly after Trump ordered trade sanctions to be put on Turkey for certain things.  The Pastor was quickly released.   The question is does Biden have the fortitude to take concrete action and do the same thing?  I doubt it.  It's all hot air.

There is a big difference between Turkey and China. China is far more powerful. One of the reasons for China's power is it's long range planning. Another is the willingness to support regimes that no country in the west would touch with a plastic pole. Xi doesn't back down easily. Pressure from a united front of the rest of the G20 nations refusing to do business might work but getting that unity is a difficult exercise. Look at how porous the sanctions against Rhodesia were. People do not want to pay five months salary to buy an Apple computer made in Canada.

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16 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

1945. We had a million men and women in the Canadian Forces, but we are a tiny country and no longer interested in war. The only country logistically capable of invading Canada is the USA.

The Russians are more than capable of seizing whatever Arctic territory they decide to, much as they have done in the South China Sea. We don't even have the means to travel to the territory we have declared our own, much less defend it, while Russia has multiple powerful icebreakers and multiple military bases in their far north. Not to mention nuclear subs which can travel beneath the ice.

16 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

China faces a hard time even crossing the straits to get to Taiwan. Carrying an invasion force across the pacific, while not impossible, would be daunting.

China doesn't need to invade with soldiers. It can simply buy the people in charge here, both corporate and political, and tell them what it wants done.

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10 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

There is a big difference between Turkey and China. China is far more powerful. One of the reasons for China's power is it's long range planning. Another is the willingness to support regimes that no country in the west would touch with a plastic pole. Xi doesn't back down easily. Pressure from a united front of the rest of the G20 nations refusing to do business might work but getting that unity is a difficult exercise. Look at how porous the sanctions against Rhodesia were. People do not want to pay five months salary to buy an Apple computer made in Canada.

 

Edited by blackbird
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20 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

The real decline began with the end of World War Two but was made worse with the Viet Nam war and the anti war movement. Canadians do not want a viable military. We don't want to serve and we don't want to pay for it. A viable military in Canada would require a massive boost in taxes, and conscription. We would need to rebuild the navy and RCAF and most importantly, develope our own nuclear weapons program. Anyone here care to lead an election campaign with that platform. 

Defence policy is an all or token proposition. As has been said, China respects strength and resolve. Canadians abandoned those qualities. I remember challenging Stockwell Day on his hollow promise to rebuild the military. His response was a tepid and demonstrated a complete lack of insight into Defence policy. 

If you want to have an armed force, it has to be able to take on any enemy without relying on allies. There are no reliable allies. So, if you want to take on China, we had better start recruiting now... or we can continue on the diplomatic route.

The entire world was enjoying the peace bonds after WWII, but you forgot to mention Korea, where 8500 man force was raised out of the population and sent into battle. we also forget that almost 30,000 Canadians served in the US forces in Vietnam despite the anti war movement. 

Not every Canadians does not want a viable military, more like a 60 don't care / 40 say yes split, as for getting Canadians to join or serve, the recruiting process has recruits lined up 2 years in advance, during the Afghanistan conflict recruitment was up over 50 %, So there is still a healthy amount of Canadians that want to serve our nation, dispite what the other 60 % think... 

How can you say it would boost taxes, Justin has spent on average 10 to 15 billion over budget since elected, and recently spent close to 400 billion last year alone on what, well no one really knows do they.  I guess we will have to wait to see how high our taxes will get right....  Australia just promised to spend 340 bil over the next 10 years on their Military, and taxes are not going up. 

Conscription, we have not had conscription since WWII, Canada does not need a huge military, but it does need one that is able to contribute to all of it's defensive pacts it has signed on to such as NATO, NORAD, 5 Eyes which is UK, US, AUS, NZ, Canada, plus be able to atleast be able to defend Canada in time of need, be it from a foreign power or mother nature, the last ICE storm on the east coast we had it took the entire Canadian army, some of the navy and Airforce, during the Winnipeg floods it took all of the army, 1/2 the navy and 1/2 the Airforce, to work one issue. Experts predict that if BC had a major quake it would quickly overwhelm the forces to the point it would be ineffective in many areas...But hey who cares we are cheap....

DND is losing capabilities every year, along with them, it losses all the expertise that goes with them, that takes years to regain... today it has come down to not being able to carry out all of it's assigned tasks at the same time, perhaps one or two, but far from all of them.

Just to replace the fighters it is a 20 billion cost, the ship building program is well past 60 bil right now. and that does not get us new destroyers, or Subs, or replacement maritime aircraft, or new air to air re fuelers, or the VIP aircraft, and the army is a mess as well, no air defense capabilities, no SP arty, no to little heavy anti armor wpns systems, 20 battle tanks, no tracked Infantry fighting vehs " to keep up with the tanks" the list goes on and on...And the worse part about it the Media including CBC has reported to Canadians time after time after time that our military is on life support...the only ones that care are the comedians as the jokes keep getting better...

Nuclear capabilities at one point we did have them, then everyone got liberalized and we sent them away. we would not need them with a moderate sized conventional force. 

Today the only nation able to stand on it's own is the US, and they can not do it all alone, if there is more than one theater of conflict. Hence why we have all of these defensive pacts we have signed on to. we are good at signing them, but we suck living up to the terms of them, see NATO, when justin first got elected he and his liberals signed onto the new rules which stated a lot of new conditions one of them being each nation would spend up to 2 % of their GDP on their military forces, this was to counter Russia's build up and new aggression,today Justin and his marry band changed the rules on what counts as a military expenditure and even through cheating we can only mange a little more than 1.2 % next we signed on to the 5 eyes pact, the UK, US,Aus,NZ, and Canada, to counter Chinese aggression in the pacific, it has conditions as well, but we don't even have any air or ground units in the pacific, and barely any naval forces, our contribution is a couple of ships for an exercise once a year.. Why even embarrass ourselves if we are not going to commit any treasure to these causes, but for some reason we don't care how embarrassing it gets, or how cheap we look it is the Canadian way... Smile boys they're taking pictures again, never seen museum pieces in working order.

From a Soldiers point of view, is they see the majority of Canadians are hot bags of wind, they have no problem with getting behind what ever government that is in charge to send us into harms way, be it peace making or peace keeping... but don't dare to ask for equipment that could save lives... When we used to ask for new equipment the government and Canadians would wait until enough soldiers had died on the battle field before taking action, thats right when enough soldiers had traveled the highway of hero's in metal coffins , they would consider our requests not until .... and thenthese purchases were not for the entire Army, but rather limited to Afghanistan operations needs only, plus a few training examples to train on in Canada.

Afghanistan conflict had turned from a Canadian commitment , to one strictly supported by DND , to the soldiers it became our war, one that we could not count on our nations citizens to have our backs in our time of need. one that was a moral busting, to see all those planes being loaded up with bother and sisters in arms flagged drapped coffins.... We even stopped watching the news from Canada because it had become so poisoned, again'st the mission that had been dropped in our laps by our nation only to have them give us the finger when it came to support....   Even the government screwed us , every dime that was spent in Afghanistan came out of DND budget, and to pay for those costs came at the expense of training and equipment in Canada... those costs included diplomatic expenses, provincial reconstruction costs, all the federal government dog and pony shows "photo ops" and trust me every MP had their turn over there, any thing to do with Afghanistan was out of DND budget...and no special budget increase by the feds, if DND ran into the red it came out of next years budget...

Things are not getting better, they are getting worse.

Sorry for the rant.... 

 

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21 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

1945. We had a million men and women in the Canadian Forces, but we are a tiny country and no longer interested in war. The only country logistically capable of invading Canada is the USA. That war would last about 20 minutes, but the occupation would be interesting. 😉

China faces a hard time even crossing the straits to get to Taiwan. Carrying an invasion force across the pacific, while not impossible, would be daunting.

 

China has "the" largest Navy in the world, that is saying something considering the size of the US navy, and getting to Taiwan or North America for that matter is not the problem the US / and allies navies are. And that fight would escalate very quickly. 

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6 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

There is a big difference between Turkey and China. China is far more powerful. One of the reasons for China's power is it's long range planning. Another is the willingness to support regimes that no country in the west would touch with a plastic pole. Xi doesn't back down easily. Pressure from a united front of the rest of the G20 nations refusing to do business might work but getting that unity is a difficult exercise. Look at how porous the sanctions against Rhodesia were. People do not want to pay five months salary to buy an Apple computer made in Canada.

Why does it have to be made in Canada, why not India, Vietnam, Pakistan, or any other country with cheap labor. Chinese labor is not as cheap as it first was, they are actually paid decent compared to other countries in the area. 

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6 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

China has "the" largest Navy in the world, that is saying something considering the size of the US navy, and getting to Taiwan or North America for that matter is not the problem the US / and allies navies are. And that fight would escalate very quickly. 

 

A bit of a paper navy if you ask me. They lack the ability to truly project globally like the USA. They have carriers...but they're jump carriers that do not allow for heavily loaded machines.

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There is not likely to be a hot war between Russia/China and the west, at least not for the foreseeable future.  The reason is would mean mutually-assured destruction (MAD).  China's aim is to create a huge imperial empire which they control and this is what they are achieving, without annexing any country or land.  

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My thought about the Liberal caucus not voting in favor, or abstained, on the "geocide title" motion is due to the fact that once you use that term it will put the beaks on all other trade, or diplomatic  discussions. I and everyone else knows its wrong, but that term is really dangerous. Not a gutless move, just carefully planed one.

I feel it would also put the two Michaels at even greater risk.

Just my opinion!

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1 hour ago, Johnny said:

My thought about the Liberal caucus not voting in favor, or abstained, on the "geocide title" motion is due to the fact that once you use that term it will put the beaks on all other trade, or diplomatic  discussions. I and everyone else knows its wrong, but that term is really dangerous. Not a gutless move, just carefully planed one.

I feel it would also put the two Michaels at even greater risk.

Just my opinion!

 

In that spirit....

Why are we doing business with a country that murders its own people?

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On 2/24/2021 at 8:31 PM, blackbird said:

When Turkey was holding an American pastor in prison, Trump told Turkey release him or there will be action.  Shortly after Trump ordered trade sanctions to be put on Turkey for certain things.  The Pastor was quickly released. 


The so called pastor CIA agent was released after negotiations. According to claims US wanted some other persons too, some scientists and engineers. 

Edited by Altai
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22 minutes ago, Altai said:


The so called pastor CIA agent was released after negotiations. According to claims US wanted some other persons too, some scientists and engineers. 

 You say he was a CIA agent, but that is incorrect.  That is not what he was charged for.  He was charged with being connected to some terrorist group, not spying. 

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7 minutes ago, blackbird said:

 You say he was a CIA agent, but that is incorrect.  That is not what he was charged for.  He was charged with being connected to some terrorist group, not spying. 


Yes, he is connected to very interesting people and groups. Just like an agent should be. 

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4 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

When have we not ?  

We restored relations with Iran who murdered a Canadian woman in her jail cell.... 

 

I don't think we should be doing business with Iran either.

You'd like to do the Biden and say that genocide is just part of Chinese culture, eh?

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