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Argus

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Did we talk about the 'genocide' vote ?  Does this signal something new from Canada /

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Also does anyone else but me oppose the term 'genocide' being misused here ?  It's a human rights attrocity but genocide is "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group"


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/uighur-genocide-motion-vote-1.5922711

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4 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Did we talk about the 'genocide' vote ?  Does this signal something new from Canada /

266-0

Also does anyone else but me oppose the term 'genocide' being misused here ?  It's a human rights attrocity but genocide is "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group"


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/uighur-genocide-motion-vote-1.5922711

Is the CCP not trying to eliminate a whole group, the Muslims?

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12 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Did we talk about the 'genocide' vote ?  Does this signal something new from Canada /

266-0

Also does anyone else but me oppose the term 'genocide' being misused here ?  It's a human rights attrocity but genocide is "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group"


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/uighur-genocide-motion-vote-1.5922711

We don't know that it isn't either because observers can't get close to these camps. 

From UN Declaration on Genocide

Quote

Article 2 of the Convention defines genocide as

... any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
— Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article 2[5]

What this vote does do is send a clear message to China of the Canadian public's feelings toward China. 

The Chinese government has lost the battle for public opinion in Canada so it doesn't matter a toss what their ambassador says .

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25 minutes ago, blackbird said:

  This finally happened when Canada became one of the first nations to establish diplomatic relations with the CCP in 1970 under the liberal leader Pierre Trudeau, who had a fascination with Communist dictatorships.

Prime Minister Trudeau's move to open relations with China was in partnership with the Republican government of the US. It was a move that was seen as a great achievement resulting in the President of the US going on a state visit to China. Mr. Trudeau was basically doing the recce for Kissinger and Nixon. 

 

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1 minute ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Prime Minister Trudeau's move to open relations with China was in partnership with the Republican government of the US. It was a move that was seen as a great achievement resulting in the President of the US going on a state visit to China. Mr. Trudeau was basically doing the recce for Kissinger and Nixon. 

 

I doubt Trudeau was especially acting for Kissinger and Nixon.  There was no love between Pierre Trudeau and Nixon.  The book "The Truth about Trudeau" (Pierre Trudeau) has a lot of information about how Pierre Trudeau had a great interest in the USSR, China, and Communist Cuba, especially Fidel Castro.  Trudeau traveled to China and was very interested in their country and system.  He also traveled to Cuba and became close friends with Castro.  Trudeau shunned our American allies and reduced the number of NATO troops in Europe.  Trudeau was a kind of radical who seemed to operate outside the realm of western democracy.  1970 was also the middle of the Viet Nam war when America was fighting against the growth of Communism in Viet Nam.  

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3 hours ago, cannuck said:

 Now, let's go into aviation:  if I want to buy the latest in technology in general aviation, I would be looking for an aircraft diesel engine.  Yes, some of them are made right here (there) in the good ole US of A - by China.  I might want the latest and greatest airframe (and largest selling genav airplanes in the world) you would head over to Cirrus...yup, made in the USofA...belongs to China. 

 

State owned enterprises even in China are estimated to be 30 - 40% government control, on top of all land ownership (90+% of land is Crown owned in Canada).  American private interests / capital have far greater ownership and impact on Canada than anything China has done.   If you want to make a distinction between government and private ownership, one can have that discussion (i.e. state owned Crown Corporations in Canada), but plenty of American and Canadian corporations own foreign enterprises in many sectors, not just manufacturing.   Example: Canadian firms are major players around the world for mining.

Cirrus Aircraft (based in my state) sought additional capital from several domestic and foreign sources before the Chinese acquisition (e.g. Bahrain) to remain solvent.    GM has 50% ownership of SAIC (Shanghai) and now manufactures more vehicles in China than in North America.  Boeing has been in China for more than 40 years, delivering more than 2000 airliners to the Chinese market.   20% of Apple revenue comes from China.

China is not going away and competition is not going away either.  Canada has been coming up short in this area for several reasons regardless of China, and continued over-dependence on raw materials exports, commodities, U.S. market/capital investment, etc. will leave it more vulnerable to foreign owned policies and actions in the future.   Just add China to the list until Canada (or USA) decide to do things differently. 

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3 hours ago, blackbird said:

I doubt Trudeau was especially acting for Kissinger and Nixon.  There was no love between Pierre Trudeau and Nixon. 

 

Indeed....Pierre Trudeau purposely sought to counterbalance American power and influence by kanoodling with Cuba and China (among others) for perceived distancing from Washington and the favourable domestic politics that could provide, especially during the Vietnam War, despite the war making billions for the Canadian economy.

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19 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Maybe those who are in favour of the motion would like to take the place of the two Michaels when the Chinese government reacts to this.

If it's not those idiots it will be some other idiots who think they'll be fine living and working in a lawless country run by brutal dictators without morals. Are we to guard our every word, our every deed forevermore by what the Chinese might do to stupid Canadians who decided to travel to China?

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10 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

American manufacturing job losses started long before that (early 1980's), and no, China is not why "tens of millions" of Americans lost their jobs....more like 4,000,000 give or take.   U.S. exports to China have also created jobs (e.g. Boeing, Caterpillar, etc.).

In ten years some Chinese company will be making Boeing planes but calling them something else. They'll sell them for a fraction of the cost of Boeing's similar planes, and undercut them around the world in developing nations which don't care that much about IP if they can get a plane for a third the cost.

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9 minutes ago, Argus said:

In ten years some Chinese company will be making Boeing planes but calling them something else. They'll sell them for a fraction of the cost of Boeing's similar planes, and undercut them around the world in developing nations which don't care that much about IP if they can get a plane for a third the cost.

 

Boeing has already partnered with China for aviation manufacturing...the Comac efforts to date have come up way short, even for the Chinese domestic market.   Airbus has competed with Boeing for many decades on product and cost.   Boeing needs the China market now...not just ten years from now.

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4 hours ago, blackbird said:

I doubt Trudeau was especially acting for Kissinger and Nixon.  There was no love between Pierre Trudeau and Nixon.  The book "The Truth about Trudeau" (Pierre Trudeau) has a lot of information about how Pierre Trudeau had a great interest in the USSR, China, and Communist Cuba, especially Fidel Castro.  Trudeau traveled to China and was very interested in their country and system.

So it is just coincidence that President Nixon suddenly opened relations with China after Canada did the groundwork. Nixon went to China and broke bread with Chou and Mao. You mean Nixon was a communist?

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4 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Did we talk about the 'genocide' vote ?  Does this signal something new from Canada /

266-0

Also does anyone else but me oppose the term 'genocide' being misused here ?  It's a human rights attrocity but genocide is "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group"


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/uighur-genocide-motion-vote-1.5922711

I loved it!  They finally did something I can be proud of.  The 2022 Olympics in China should be boycotted.  North America could put together an alternative.  Hosting events in several cities, Calgary, Salt Lake City, Vancouver and Lake Placid.

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3 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Indeed....Pierre Trudeau purposely sought to counterbalance American power and influence by kanoodling with Cuba and China (among others) for perceived distancing from Washington and the favourable domestic politics that could provide, especially during the Vietnam War, despite the war making billions for the Canadian economy.

Still, I wish Justin was more than a pale imitation of his father now!

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7 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Did we talk about the 'genocide' vote ?  Does this signal something new from Canada /

266-0

Also does anyone else but me oppose the term 'genocide' being misused here ?  It's a human rights attrocity but genocide is "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group"


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/uighur-genocide-motion-vote-1.5922711

Well seeing how all the liberal cabinet members backed out, and refused to vote , what does it mean really, the official government has not said a thing, nor have they any plans to do so. Is this the topic that is going to see liberal voters leave the ranks, i don't think so...

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2 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

So it is just coincidence that President Nixon suddenly opened relations with China after Canada did the groundwork. Nixon went to China and broke bread with Chou and Mao. You mean Nixon was a communist?

It doesn't really matter who opened relations with China first.  The problem as I've stated was Pierre Trudeau and following governments in Canada as well as other western countries cozied up to Communist China ever since.  It is dealing with a diabiolical system which from the start murdered millions of their own people and always have denied their people human rights.  What is the west think they're doing dealing with China?  Obviously money and international trade always was all that mattered.

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29 minutes ago, Right To Left said:

Still, I wish Justin was more than a pale imitation of his father now!

 

Not only does Justin Trudeau not have the gravitas of his father, domestic and foreign policy circumstances are very different today.   Canada use to be a legitimate middle power with credible military projection, naval capabilities, even peacekeeping resources sustained for many years.    Canada had a very capable Cold War ASW role and mission for the GIUK gap, and was integrated well into NATO forces without the deadbeat apologies seen today.

There was always a tension within Canada over compliance and support for American policies around the world, so succeeding Canadian governments adopted a strategy of covert cooperation but public defiance for political gain back home.  Canada pursued the alternative "human rights" strategy using NATO and "allied" power for a "Responsibility to Protect" and beat up on third world nations.

That won't work with China, which can now treat Canada like a chew toy with a PM who is ill prepared to lead, and doesn't have the resources to even get a "seat at the table" anymore.   Arguably, this decline started with his father, and he wants to finish it (i.e. "post national state").

China only respects strength, and purposely exploits weakness.   Time to hit the gym.

 

 

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8 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Did we talk about the 'genocide' vote ?  Does this signal something new from Canada /

266-0

Also does anyone else but me oppose the term 'genocide' being misused here ?  It's a human rights attrocity but genocide is "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group"


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/uighur-genocide-motion-vote-1.5922711

This contrarian article by Gareth Porter and Max Blumenthal published at the Grayzone draws almost everything about China Uygur Genocide narrative into question, beginning with a definition for genocide! 

 

US State Department accusation of China 'genocide' relied on data abuse and baseless claims by far-right ideologue | The Grayzone

Gareth Porter and Max Blumenthal·February 18, 2021

The Trump and Biden administrations have relied on the work of a right-wing religious extremist, Adrian Zenz, for their “genocide” accusation against China.  A close review of Zenz’s research reveals flagrant data abuse and outright falsehoods.

Reading their report shows that Canadian government and media have no standards beyond slavish devotion to whatever path is set for by the US State Dept.!  Here we are following a US judgment based on the work of one rightwing Christian fascist named Adrian Zenz, who defines "genocide" down to denying birth by means of abortion and birth control methods! 

So now we have our Canadian government and media having no standards beyond slavish devotion to whatever path is set for by the US State Dept.!  Here we are following a US judgment based on the work of one rightwing Christian fascist named Adrian Zenz, who defines "genocide" down to denying birth by means of abortion and birth control methods! 

Interesting to note that in the past...even Cold War days, it was mostly the religious right who focused on China's One Child policy...which even prior stories on Uygurs, Tibetans and other minorities acknowledged was set at two children per married couple. Certainly this is state interference we would never accept, but now we got Liberals calling it genocide also! Or afraid to deny the conservative claim....Liberal ministers choosing to take a day off rather than take a stand on that vote in Parliament.

Edited by Right To Left
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Blackbird said: "It doesn't really matter who opened relations with China first.  The problem as I've stated was Pierre Trudeau and following governments in Canada as well as other western countries cozied up to Communist China ever since.  It is dealing with a diabiolical system which from the start murdered millions of their own people and always have denied their people human rights.  What is the west think they're doing dealing with China?  Obviously money and international trade always was all that mattered."

Would you be willing to pay $10,000 for an iPhone or an iMac? There are lots of diabolical governments. A few years before I was born, Stalin was our best friend and Emporer Hirohito was the devil incarnate. In a few years, Stalin was the devil and Hirohito was a close ally. 

Edited by Queenmandy85
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16 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Not only does Justin Trudeau not have the gravitas of his father, domestic and foreign policy circumstances are very different today.   Canada use to be a legitimate middle power with credible military projection, naval capabilities, even peacekeeping resources sustained for many years.    Canada had a very capable Cold War ASW role and mission for the GIUK gap, and was integrated well into NATO forces without the deadbeat apologies seen today.

There was always a tension within Canada over compliance and support for American policies around the world, so succeeding Canadian governments adopted a strategy of covert cooperation but public defiance for political gain back home.  Canada pursued the alternative "human rights" strategy using NATO and "allied" power for a "Responsibility to Protect" and beat up on third world nations.

That won't work with China, which can now treat Canada like a chew toy with a PM who is ill prepared to lead, and doesn't have the resources to even get a "seat at the table" anymore.   Arguably, this decline started with his father, and he wants to finish it (i.e. "post national state").

China only respects strength, and purposely exploits weakness.   Time to hit the gym.

 

 

Actually, Canada's Armed Forces were small, well-trained but ill-equipped for more than light peacekeeping operations back when a few of my friends signed up. We were still using a lot of leftover WWII ships, tanks and other aging weapons. Our days of military projection were back during WWII, some...like two of my uncles were sent to support the British overseas forces in Burma  and fight the Japanese, while my father and another two uncles were sent over with many other young Canadians, many to make a landing in France and push back the Germans. BUT, that was a long time ago now!

Right now, we are projecting militarily....behind the skirt of our US overseers, and the rest of the world knows it, even if Canadian and other western media won't report the truth anymore! Many people in resource-rich nations under the boot of US/Euro imperialism are aware that Canada plays a small, obsequious role in their impoverishment and misery. Examples would be: Canada's immediate recognition of the illegitimate puppet - Guiado...which makes no sense until you unravel a few layers and find out that Canadian-based mining companies are major stakeholders in proposed mining operations in Southern Venezuela in the Amazon Valley. Problem right now is they can't get at the gold and other valuable rare minerals without a handy change in government! So, it's common knowledge around the world that Canada's peace and human rights and other expressed concerns are bullshit hiding motives based on $$$ and keeping the Yanks happy. 

I think China would have more respect for our leaders if Canada was an honest broker on world affairs...even where we don't have the political or economic clout to make a substantial difference.

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27 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

That won't work with China, which can now treat Canada like a chew toy with a PM who is ill prepared to lead, and doesn't have the resources to even get a "seat at the table" anymore.   Arguably, this decline started with his father, and he wants to finish it (i.e. "post national state").

The real decline began with the end of World War Two but was made worse with the Viet Nam war and the anti war movement. Canadians do not want a viable military. We don't want to serve and we don't want to pay for it. A viable military in Canada would require a massive boost in taxes, and conscription. We would need to rebuild the navy and RCAF and most importantly, develope our own nuclear weapons program. Anyone here care to lead an election campaign with that platform. 

Defence policy is an all or token proposition. As has been said, China respects strength and resolve. Canadians abandoned those qualities. I remember challenging Stockwell Day on his hollow promise to rebuild the military. His response was a tepid and demonstrated a complete lack of insight into Defence policy. 

If you want to have an armed force, it has to be able to take on any enemy without relying on allies. There are no reliable allies. So, if you want to take on China, we had better start recruiting now... or we can continue on the diplomatic route.

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7 minutes ago, Right To Left said:

Actually, Canada's Armed Forces were small, well-trained but ill-equipped for more than light peacekeeping operations back when a few of my friends signed up. We were still using a lot of leftover WWII ships, tanks and other aging weapons.

 

Nevertheless, Canadian Forces had capabilities and could sustain operations that it cannot perform well today.   Canada's previous defence spending included tactical aircraft, capable diesel electric submarine upgrades (British Oberon class), patrol aircraft, Halifax class CODOG frigates built in Canada, etc.   The political will to do these things has all but disappeared...outside NATO pressure is resented....China pressure is tolerated.

 

Quote

I think China would have more respect for our leaders if Canada was an honest broker on world affairs...even where we don't have the political or economic clout to make a substantial difference.

 

Not going to happen without hard power backing up soft power, even as a collective defence, which Canada continues to keep on a starvation diet. 

 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

If you want to have an armed force, it has to be able to take on any enemy without relying on allies. There are no reliable allies. So, if you want to take on China, we had better start recruiting now... or we can continue on the diplomatic route.

 

Canada has never had an independent war fighting capability, but at least in the past it could contribute to the collective defence that Canada depends on as a matter of policy and reality (NATO, NORAD, etc.).   The bills are coming due and a majority of Canadians surely do not want to pay the price.

Diplomacy is often only a soft glove that covers an iron fist.   China sees opportunity (and weakness) in Canada's choices, even if most Canadians do not view it that way.

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15 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Canada has never had an independent war fighting capability,

1945. We had a million men and women in the Canadian Forces, but we are a tiny country and no longer interested in war. The only country logistically capable of invading Canada is the USA. That war would last about 20 minutes, but the occupation would be interesting. 😉

China faces a hard time even crossing the straits to get to Taiwan. Carrying an invasion force across the pacific, while not impossible, would be daunting.

 

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