What to do about China

[Zeitgeist]

6 hours ago, Argus said:

Far from giving participation trophies or watering down the curriculum at top rate universities so more minorities can pass China has ordered its schools to 'toughen up' it's young men. It doesn't want desperately sensitive men who cry every time something doesn't go their way. Incidentally, China still has the draft. And it's military is far from gentle to recruits and soldiers. China is letting nothing get in its way. Oh, bad publicity? Tough shit. Oh, the world is complaining? Like they care. A virus breaking out in a major city? They cordon off the city by force, then the whole province. There's no pleas for people to observe quarantines. They're dragged off by police if they don't. Meanwhile Canada keeps its borders open because banning flights from China would be 'racist'. Nearly every flight from India, even now, has people aboard who test positive for covid, but don't expect the government to ban flights from India. That might offend Indo-Canadian voters. And we still don't have an enforced quarantine. You get an $800 fine if you refuse to go to a hotel but no arrest. And the fine is cheaper than the price of the hotel stay!

Canada's most profitable exports are its natural resources. And we desperately need the money, especially now. But Canada can't built pipelines to export our oil. And activist groups and a myriad of bureaucracies throw ten years worth of red tape in front of the development of any new project. Meanwhile our government is determined to increase carbon taxes on industry while China continues to build coal-fired power plants by the dozen. China has gone from 57 frigates and destroyers in 1996 to 357 frigates, destroyers, helicopter carriers, submarines and aircraft carriers today. During the same period of time Canada has struggled to even decide what kind of a warship to build and how and where to do so. And they still haven't awarded a contract. By the time the first of a dozen new frigates gets built at enormous cost China will have built scores more frigates, destroyers and aircraft carriers at a fraction of the price per ship. We can't even built a SUPPLY SHIP for under a billion dollars.

All true, but this has happened because of totalitarian capitalism's central government control over the value of China's currency and key industries.  Basically China can infinitely capitalize state infrastructure projects like high speed rail and the Belt and Road Initiative by controlling the value of the Juan, both keeping it from ever collapsing or rising.  It means labour costs can be kept artificially low to protect its monopoly over world industrial production, yet it can also print money to pay for as many roads, railways, and energy projects as it wants without worrying about a devaluation of its currency.  China can build and spend consequence-free, which is why so many new buildings in new cities sit empty.  The fact that China has the largest production facilities and labour force, in addition to a growing domestic market for this production, only adds to the juggernaut.

The only way forward for a liberal democratic country with a modestly-sized economy and a well educated labour force, yet diminished domestic manufacturing base like Canada to compete is on value.  We can't do it on labour costs.  We have to leverage our intellectual capital into the most advanced biomedical, agri, resource development, manufacturing, and other forms of technology to gain advantage in productivity of production and quality of product.  We should unleash all the potential of our vast store of natural resources, yet go vertical in some key areas of strength, from extraction to production to sales and distribution.

What we should take from the totalitarian capitalist model is state-sponsored and regulated control over major national infrastructure projects (a version of Energy East from Alberta to Sarnia is one example; high speed rail in the Quebec-Windsor corridor is another) and critical sectors (defence, medical, steel, food supply, etc.). Those industries should be eternally protected by the federal government to ensure that whenever it's necessary to lift the border drawbridge, such as during a pandemic or in a trade war, Canada can independently produce the food, vaccines, and essential household items, as well as defend the country without being beholden to outside powers.  We need the latest tech aircraft, drones, and icebreakers to defend our waters; we need to stoke our manufacturing by incentivizing domestic production, including maintaining steel production; we need to maintain key domestic biomedical pharmaceutical production; and prevent foreign ownership and theft of key domestic assets and production technologies.  Only in that context will Canada truly be able to threaten China or any other country with trade sanctions and use other diplomatic tools to apply pressure on foreign powers to meet Canadian interests.  Basically our soft power has no backbone without hard power.  Hard power is independence.  China understands this, which is why it has taken over Africa by making much of that continent dependent on Chinese financing, labour, and expertise.

While it may seem like too great a climb to compete at that level, we're doing it now with companies like Shopify as we did years ago with Blackberry and Nortel.  Technology allows you to skip steps.  We could probably defend much of the country remotely through satellites and drones, without a lot of personnel and hardware.  Doing all of this requires a national strategy and will.  Basically the federal government has to care about and champion Canada.  

Edited March 21, 2021 by Zeitgeist

[Army Guy]

Canada's response to china and it treatment of it's own people.... Here is what one of our allies think about our response and our own PM.  * warning* liberals should not view this short news clip, way to opinionated for you.

Trudeau government is 'the most pathetic in the history of Five Eyes' - YouTube

[blackbird]

"Who is the greatest military threat to Canada?

• Is it China?
• Is it Al Qaeda, ISIS or the Taliban?
• Or maybe it’s Russia?

Well, according to Justin Trudeau and his defence minister, Harjit Sajjan, it’s us: Rebel News."

"Justin Trudeau hired a U.S. defence contractor to spy on Rebel News"   Things you will never be told by CBC or CTV.

Cyberintelligence Operation Donation - Rebel News

[OftenWrong]

Being post-national means that Canada's economy depends on the global economy. That looks to be a big mistake, especially during emergencies. Canada needs to take a more defencive stance, imo.

In a way China's aggression is doing a favour for those who argue against globalism. It's become clear that the only way forward especially for a country like Canada, is to shield ourselves from the economic threat of China. But that needs some fundamental changes. So, roll it back to the good old days! Cold war was never over, numb-nuts only you thought so.

[Aristides]

On 3/21/2021 at 4:31 PM, Army Guy said:

Canada's response to china and it treatment of it's own people.... Here is what one of our allies think about our response and our own PM.  * warning* liberals should not view this short news clip, way to opinionated for you.

Trudeau government is 'the most pathetic in the history of Five Eyes' - YouTube

Not to defend Trudeau but Sky News is the Fox News of Australia, it's even owned by the same guy. 

[Army Guy]

2 hours ago, Aristides said:

Not to defend Trudeau but Sky News is the Fox News of Australia, it's even owned by the same guy. 

I get it not a very reliable source and yet here is a news outlet that rarely has anything to say about Canada, good or bad, and even across the globe and he is being treated like a S*** sandwich, well him and our nations good name. And it is not only this news outlet, but Justin has not made many friends in many of our allies as well Like Australia, where he has had bad remarks made by two of Australia's PM's.

[cannuck]

8 hours ago, Army Guy said:

I get it not a very reliable source and yet here is a news outlet that rarely has anything to say about Canada, good or bad,

The LPC has bought and paid for the Canadian media with well over $2 Bn of our grandchildren's money, so the idiot-in-chief thinks he can bully ANY new media with impunity...and he can. Mostly because we are so stupid we fit the LPC mold and allow it with typical ignorance and complacency.  Going back to Zeiteists post: we now have several generations who think a disaster is going from 3 chickens in the pot to two.  Soft would be an understatement in the extreme.

[Army Guy]

3 hours ago, cannuck said:

The LPC has bought and paid for the Canadian media with well over $2 Bn of our grandchildren's money, so the idiot-in-chief thinks he can bully ANY new media with impunity...and he can. Mostly because we are so stupid we fit the LPC mold and allow it with typical ignorance and complacency.  Going back to Zeiteists post: we now have several generations who think a disaster is going from 3 chickens in the pot to two.  Soft would be an understatement in the extreme.

True the LPC has bought and paid for everyone, including it's citizens... and with the latest bribes going out to Quebec because he needs to have a tight grip in Quebec. as for soft power i could not agree more Canada has NO power , it has let all of it's security departments fall into disrepair with the lack of trained personal, and equipment to do the job...

But this is how the majority of Canadians want their country soft as runny turds.... i think it is because they don't understand what happens when your security is beyond lame... they don't care about things like sovereignty and everything that comes with it. just like they don't really care on what is going on around the world... 

And I'm not sure the conservatives can fix this issue either, they are leaning hard to the left with only a few inches between the right and the left remaining .  But they never quit finish anything they start, like legal weed, tell me that was well thought out and running smooth...or the pipe line they bought... they are always kicking shit down the road, let someone else figure it out....  

[myata]

The developments around China and it's no exception, Russia and any number of authoritarian and dictatorial regimes clearly show that democratic facade will never change or replace the essence, core. And in that there's an important message for the rest of the world, and not in the least for us. A democracy that does not constantly work on developing and strengthening itself, its institutions and functions, its transparency and responsibility to citizens is always at risk of decaying into a facade democracy.

Contrary to what we want to believe, and are taught relentlessly this country does not have strong democracy and never had it. Independent and effective institutions keeping checks at all levels in every office are not where, as there's few cases of prosecuted high level corruption. Is it because the governments are stellar clean? How can one be sure?

Checks and balances keeping offices and institutions effective and transparent do not exist. A party in a majority position can do pretty much anything and is limited only by question hour circus ("when there will be vaccines? we do everything possible to get them"). They are replaced by a grotesque imitation of transparency in form of diverse ombudspeople basically another level of bureaucracy overseeing a bureaucracy itself known to commit abuses of position and so on.

Until recently we thought that we have strong and independent media but the pandemics events show it not to be the case. Important events such as concerns about some vaccines were reported with huge delay, and importantly, not one of main news channels broke the line. It leaves little doubt that media in the country is to some extent controlled or self-controlled it does not make much difference in my view.

And that leaves the courts. The perception is that they are generally independent and competent but courts cannot run the country.

That's one and a half of effective to some extent instruments of controlling the government and offices. And not a lot for a modern democracy in this century. It only takes one honest look.

I don't think there's a risk of authoritarianism here like in China. But we may evolve into a facade democracy like any number with elections du jour that change nothing and all important affairs in the country run by influential interests behind closed doors. How far are we already on the way there? I can't tell - can you?

[Argus]

So you might not be aware of it, but a couple of companies (Nike and H&M) have expressed 'concern' about whether the cotton they source from a province in China might be grown and picked with slave labor because China is using the Uighurs as slaves there. Well, no matter how polite you are, China does not tolerate even mild criticism. Both companies are now being 'boycotted' in China amid a big social media campaign launched by the government. Chinese have stopped buying their products for fear it will affect their social credit scores since the government knows everything you buy and everywhere you go.

I bring this up because it's an example of how China controls companies all over the world. If you do business in or with China, China demands you bow to their view of reality. You must never criticize China in any way or say anything bad about its behaviour. All it takes is some minor thing, like one NBA coach tweeting support for the Uighurs, and Suddenly the NBA finds its games shut down there. 

If a TV show says something bad about China on a single episode China will then ban that production company from showing movies in China. And if it's owned by a big corporation, China will start putting pressure on that corporations sales and supplies to force it to reign in the production company. It doesn't matter if it was one episode of a show never even seen in China. China doesn't allow the slightest criticism. 

This is why China can commit genocide without more than muted criticism in the world. And if you think this doesn't impact you - it does. Because all the corporations have ties there and all of them are very careful not to offend the uber sensitive Chinese government. 

What western governments need to do is flat out ban the import of cotton from China, and begin to restrict the import of clothing made in China. 

Xinjiang cotton: Western clothes brands vanish as backlash grows - BBC News

[myata]

7 hours ago, Argus said:

What western governments need to do is flat out ban the import of cotton from China, and begin to restrict the import of clothing made in China.

Sure, tell an addict what they need to do.

[OftenWrong]

21 hours ago, Argus said:

If a TV show says something bad about China on a single episode China will then ban that production company from showing movies in China. And if it's owned by a big corporation, China will start putting pressure on that corporations sales and supplies to force it to reign in the production company. It doesn't matter if it was one episode of a show never even seen in China.

What needs to happen is everyone pile on, call out the dirty Chinese CPC and refuse to do business with THEM. Then China can go sit in a corner all by itself for a while.

[Michael Hardner]

15 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

What needs to happen is everyone pile on, call out the dirty Chinese CPC and refuse to do business with THEM. Then China can go sit in a corner all by itself for a while.

Exactly.  But who will "bell the cat" as it were.  The West, with it's unmanageable public and changing governments will be difficult to get onside with this - and with the economic hardship that will result.

[Argus]

3 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

What needs to happen is everyone pile on, call out the dirty Chinese CPC and refuse to do business with THEM. Then China can go sit in a corner all by itself for a while.

Well, we sure can't depend on corporations to do it. Only governments can confront them, and only if somewhat unified. I think that unity could be arranged among the West, as well as other countries worried about China.

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

I think that unity could be arranged among the West, as well as other countries worried about China.

How would it come about ?  Let me phrase it this ways: what are the specific agents working in favour of the status quo ?  

You identified corporations and they are entrenched powers that are difficult to more.

[OftenWrong]

20 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

How would it come about ?  Let me phrase it this ways: what are the specific agents working in favour of the status quo ?  

You identified corporations and they are entrenched powers that are difficult to more.

World domination by a one -world, leftist fascist government, of course. In other words, today.

[Michael Hardner]

2 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

World domination by a one -world, leftist fascist government, of course. In other words, today.

Are you following the conversation?

[OftenWrong]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Are you following the conversation?

Following it? Hell no. I’m leading it.

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

Following it? Hell no. I’m leading it.

Oh that explains it. 

So Argus says "I think that unity could be arranged among the West" and you think it will come from a one-world leftist government ?  Ok.

[OftenWrong]

22 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

So Argus says "I think that unity could be arranged among the West" and you think it will come from a one-world leftist government ?

That is where the left is taking us and what I interpreted Argus to mean by it, yes. Have you been following the news for last 4 years?

[Michael Hardner]

29 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

That is where the left is taking us and what I interpreted Argus to mean by it, yes. Have you been following the news for last 4 years?

Well, I have. I'm at a complete loss as to what you're saying.  Hopefully Argus will address your point and the conversation will move forward.

[Moonlight Graham]

CCP Nazis sanctioning Canadian MP's: https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/china-sanctions-conservative-mp-michael-chong-federal-subcommittee-1.5364957

[Moonlight Graham]

9 hours ago, Argus said:

Well, we sure can't depend on corporations to do it. Only governments can confront them, and only if somewhat unified. I think that unity could be arranged among the West, as well as other countries worried about China.

The Western free world needs to unite as a bloc to counter China.

[Moonlight Graham]

Our politicians have failed us, they sold us out long ago, and this is a result.  The only ones who can fix things is the people, by pressuring our politicians, and by voting with your dollars.  I have already been boycotting all electronics and software made by Chinese companies, and will probably extend by boycotts.  Hauwei IT products are still allowed to be bought and sold in Canada LOL.

[Moonlight Graham]

Our politicians have failed us, they sold us out long ago, and this is a result.  The only ones who can fix things is the people, by pressuring our politicians, and by voting with your dollars.  I have already been boycotting all electronics and software made by Chinese companies, and will probably extend by boycotts.  Hauwei IT products are still allowed to be bought and sold in Canada LOL.