What to do about China

[Argus]

30 minutes ago, blackbird said:

"The Party regularly reminds the Chinese people of the country’s century of humiliation at the hands of foreigners.

Chinese children are taught this throughout their school years. Along with the 'fact' that Taiwan is a part of China.

Edited February 15, 2021 by Argus

[OftenWrong]

Liberal cowards could not bring themselves to speak out against China.

MPs vote to label China's persecution of Uighurs a genocide

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and almost all of his cabinet colleagues were absent for the vote. Foreign Affairs Minister Marc Garneau was the only cabinet minister present. When it was his turn, he said he abstained "on behalf of the Government of Canada." 

[cannuck]

On 2/15/2021 at 11:01 AM, blackbird said:

"Lack of respect for the rule of law leads to some other mind-boggling situations, including a number of outrageous examples of intellectual property theft in which the Chinese partner not only steals his foreign partner’s idea but then successfully sues him in local court for having the temerity to continue using the technology he (the foreign partner) developed in the first place. There are many accounts of trusted Chinese employees taking valuable production secrets to the local competition or even siphoning money from the joint venture to build a competing factory down the road."

Been there, done that, lost the T shirt.

My Chinese/Canadian business partner (now sadly deceased) and I got the rights to a product, registered the IP and trade names in China and started building prototypes for testing.  We needed to be a corporate entity, so our "friends" gave us some "trusted friends" of theirs as officers/incorporators and a foreign national could not own a company then ('90s). l When it became apparent from testing we had a winner on our hands, we came to the shop one day and found the materials, the equipment and the prototypes gone along with our "trusted partners".   I suspect they are millionaires today, but just try to FIND someone in China who doesn't want to be found.

What Westerners do NOT understand about many Asian cultures is it only the results that they respect.  Any talk about fairness, integrity, etc. is purely talk...and BS at that.  This is why it is hard to get a Chinese candidate into grad school.  EVERY applicant has 100% marks, glowing references and a long list of experience - almost all pure BS.  Smart grad schools are missing the genuine smart and good students because they can't trust any communications or documentation out of China.

You will not get to read what I have to say about the Liberals, China and Uigurs.  The language would be far too vile for delicate eyes.

[Queenmandy85]

Maybe those who are in favour of the motion would like to take the place of the two Michaels when the Chinese government reacts to this. Mr.O'Toole sits in a comfortable office while he is throwing the Canadian hostages under the tank. Also, we have to remember there are thousands of other Canadians in China who are potential hostages. Some call the government cowards but are you willing to take the Canadian hostages' place? It is easy to be self-righteous when you have nothing to lose.

[Queenmandy85]

I do not understand why anyone would take the risk to go to China or Iran. If we could convince Canadians to stay out of China and Iran, it would make foreign policy a lot less complicated.

[Zeitgeist]

11 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Maybe those who are in favour of the motion would like to take the place of the two Michaels when the Chinese government reacts to this. Mr.O'Toole sits in a comfortable office while he is throwing the Canadian hostages under the tank. Also, we have to remember there are thousands of other Canadians in China who are potential hostages. Some call the government cowards but are you willing to take the Canadian hostages' place? It is easy to be self-righteous when you have nothing to lose.

China doesn't listen to or respect diplomacy.  They only respect power and hawkishness.  Close the Chinese embassy. End Chinese imports.  Find new trading partners.  Kick out Chinese spies and diplomats.  End Chinese partnerships.  We've been living under Chinese totalitarian rule since the start of this pandemic.  Repatriate manufacturing jobs.  Pay more for products to employ more Canadians.  

Edited February 23, 2021 by Zeitgeist

[Queenmandy85]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

China doesn't listen to or respect diplomacy.  They only respect power and hawkishness.  Close the Chinese embassy. End Chinese imports.  Find new trading partners.  Kick out Chinese spies and diplomats.  End Chinese partnerships.  We've been living under Chinese totalitarian rule since the start of this pandemic.  Repatriate manufacturing jobs.  Pay more for products to employ more Canadians.  

I agree, but first you have to find a way to get Canadians out of China. The Chinese government could easily prevent Canadians from leaving. Instead of Vancouver, they could be landing up in a re-education camp.

 

[Zeitgeist]

Just now, Queenmandy85 said:

I agree, but first you have to find a way to get Canadians out of China. The Chinese government could easily prevent Canadians from leaving. Instead of Vancouver, they could be landing up in a re-education camp.

 

Harper was much sharper on China than Trudeau.  Don't give them an inch.  Declare China in violation of human rights at the UN.  Canada needs to grow a pair.  No excuses.  

[blackbird]

42 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Maybe those who are in favour of the motion would like to take the place of the two Michaels when the Chinese government reacts to this. Mr.O'Toole sits in a comfortable office while he is throwing the Canadian hostages under the tank. Also, we have to remember there are thousands of other Canadians in China who are potential hostages. Some call the government cowards but are you willing to take the Canadian hostages' place? It is easy to be self-righteous when you have nothing to lose.

What about the one or two million Uighurs who are suffering rape, forced sterilization, forced abortion, abuse, and possibly death in concentration camps.  They are trying to destroy a whole population.  Does the world stay silent and do nothing?  There are other minority religious groups that have suffered endless persecution, prison, etc. as well yet Canada went ahead and did all kinds of business with China for decades.

Edited February 23, 2021 by blackbird

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, cannuck said:

Been there, done that, lost the T shirt.

My Chinese/Canadian business partner (now sadly deceased) and I got the rights to a product, registered the IP and trade names in China and started building prototypes for testing.  We needed to be a corporate entity, so our "friends" gave us some "trusted friends" of theirs as officers/incorporators and a foreign national could not own a company then ('90s). l When it became apparent from testing we had a winner on our hands, we came to the shop one day and found the materials, the equipment and the prototypes gone along with our "trusted partners".   I suspect they are millionaires today, but just try to FIND someone in China who doesn't want to be found.

What Westerners do NOT understand about many Asian cultures is it only the results that they respect.  Any talk about fairness, integrity, etc. is purely talk...and BS at that.  This is why it is hard to get a Chinese candidate into grad school.  EVERY applicant has 100% marks, glowing references and a long list of experience - almost all pure BS.  Smart grad schools are missing the genuine smart and good students because they can't trust any communications or documentation out of China.

You will not get to read what I have to say about the Liberals, China and Uigurs.  The language would be far too vile for delicate eyes.

Yep, and the Liberals and most politicians and a lot of business people in Canada have had a lot of dealing with China over the years, but it is now coming home to haunt them.

 

[Aristides]

2 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Maybe those who are in favour of the motion would like to take the place of the two Michaels when the Chinese government reacts to this. Mr.O'Toole sits in a comfortable office while he is throwing the Canadian hostages under the tank. Also, we have to remember there are thousands of other Canadians in China who are potential hostages. Some call the government cowards but are you willing to take the Canadian hostages' place? It is easy to be self-righteous when you have nothing to lose.

 

The vote was unanimous 266-0.  Assuming all 184 opposition MP's voted for the motion, 82 Liberals also had to vote in favour.

Edited February 23, 2021 by Aristides

[cannuck]

8 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Harper was much sharper on China than Trudeau.  Don't give them an inch.  Declare China in violation of human rights at the UN.  Canada needs to grow a pair.  No excuses.  

When we were in China (mid 90s to mid naughties) it was clear that the light at the end of Chinese integration into the economy of the world tunnel was a very large locomotive that was going to crush ANYONE and ANYTHING in its path.  On the other hand: outside of the really big violations of human rights: what China does understand is the environmental costs of uncontrolled growth, the damage to business reputation of low quality products (bear in mind they can and DO make many things to the world's highest standards - those things just don't come at WalMart prices) and the sensitivity of being caught with their pants down steeling IP, tech, etc.  But, overriding all of that is the need to be Chinese and not steer off of the 5 year plan(s) - the published one and the UNpublished, nudge-nudge, wink-wink ones and above all to not lose face.

Where we went horribly wrong was opening markets without requiring conformation to standards and laws.  More than that, anti-dumping legislation.  THAT is where millions of Canadian and tens of million American jobs went.  It is also where our supply chain for strategic and important goods was severely compromised.

China is viscious and predatory, but not stupid.  They will push all that they can - and especially when the other side doesn't push back at all.   BTW: glad someone remembered that it was the Big Turd...uh...TRUDeau that welcomed China into the world, tightly clutching his own Communist Party card tightly and proudly.

[bush_cheney2004]

27 minutes ago, cannuck said:

...Where we went horribly wrong was opening markets without requiring conformation to standards and laws.  More than that, anti-dumping legislation.  THAT is where millions of Canadian and tens of million American jobs went.

 

American manufacturing job losses started long before that (early 1980's), and no, China is not why "tens of millions" of Americans lost their jobs....more like 4,000,000 give or take.   U.S. exports to China have also created jobs (e.g. Boeing, Caterpillar, etc.).

https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2020/01/us-loses-nearly-4-million-jobs-to-china-since-wto-entry.html

I can't find any numbers for Canada (as usual), but I doubt it was "millions" of job losses because of China as well.   Domestic decisions and labour costs also played a direct role in exported jobs across many industries to many countries, regardless of China.   

 

Edited February 23, 2021 by bush_cheney2004

[OftenWrong]

10 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Maybe those who are in favour of the motion would like to take the place of the two Michaels when the Chinese government reacts to this. Mr.O'Toole sits in a comfortable office while he is throwing the Canadian hostages under the tank. Also, we have to remember there are thousands of other Canadians in China who are potential hostages. Some call the government cowards but are you willing to take the Canadian hostages' place? It is easy to be self-righteous when you have nothing to lose.

 

10 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

I do not understand why anyone would take the risk to go to China or Iran. If we could convince Canadians to stay out of China and Iran, it would make foreign policy a lot less complicated.

It seems you have answered your own question.

Being silent in the name of appeasement would be a failure. China has some serious problems and they need to be called out for it, even though they don't like it. Especially.

Edited February 23, 2021 by OftenWrong

[Queenmandy85]

31 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

 

It seems you have answered your own question.

Being silent in the name of appeasement would be a failure. China has some serious problems and they need to be called out for it, even though they don't like it. Especially.

So, I presume you have contacted the Chinese consulate and purchased your airfare to go and replace one of the hostages place in a tiny cell. You'll love the torture sessions. 

Nothing would happen to help the Uighurs if Canada made a clear strong statement against their persecution. There are at least two Canadians awaiting execution in China and two Michaels being held as hostages. There are thousands of Canadians who are potential hostages in China. China is in a position where they hold all the power. You are proposing the Keyser Soze solution. Soze's family were being held hostage so he killed his own family first. 

When the high school bully has your head in the toilet, sometimes, all you can do is hold your breath.

Edited February 23, 2021 by Queenmandy85

[blackbird]

The book Axis of Evil by retired LT. General Robert Maginnis describes in his book Alliance of Evil how the People's Republic of China and the Russian Federation are in alliance and represent the biggest challenge to America and it's western allies that the world has ever faced.  Maginnes spent much of his life serving America in high military operations and pentagon military intelligence and has a vast knowledge of world affairs and the threats America and the west face.  He took a bullet through his shoulder and managed to survive it.  Took part in operations in the Panama with the removal of dictator Noriega, operations in the failed operation in Somalia, and various other operations.  He worked in intelligence for top brass as well.  He says America and the west are locked in a new cold war with Russia and China.  Their aggressive behavior is evident in many ways throughout the west as they have infiltrated all aspects of society and collected vast amounts of information technology, including militarily, and embedded agents and influence throughout our political systems and every facet of society.  Their goal is dominance.  We can complain and protest as much as we wish, but this is not going to change the situation.  They have global ambitions that we may not be able to stop.    

Edited February 23, 2021 by blackbird

[OftenWrong]

15 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

When the high school bully has your head in the toilet, sometimes, all you can do is hold your breath.

With bullies there is always pain. There's only one way to deal with them, and it too involves pain. But it's the only way.

[blackbird]

21 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

So, I presume you have contacted the Chinese consulate and purchased your airfare to go and replace one of the hostages place in a tiny cell. You'll love the torture sessions. 

Nothing would happen to help the Uighurs if Canada made a clear strong statement against their persecution. There are at least two Canadians awaiting execution in China and two Michaels being held as hostages. There are thousands of Canadians who are potential hostages in China. China is in a position where they hold all the power. You are proposing the Keyser Soze solution. Soze's family were being held hostage so he killed his own family first. 

When the high school bully has your head in the toilet, sometimes, all you can do is hold your breath.

Appeasement never worked with Hitler and the Nazis and it won't work with Communist China and Russia.  America and the west are in a new Cold War with the Alliance of Evil but many have not realized it yet.  They play hardball.  Trying to placate them won't work and may just encourage them to be more aggressive.  The west, and Canada especially, is in an extremely difficult position but got itself into it by it's own choice.  There are no easy solutions.  We are in for a struggle for the long haul and it may not end well.

[blackbird]

"11  And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. 12  For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret." Ephesian 5:11, 12 KJB The Bible warns of evil associations but apparently most politicians didn't get the message.

America, Canada, and the rest of the west ignored this Biblical principle and went into Communist China with eyes wide open and established relations, massive trade, education exchanges, immigration, investment, knowledge transfer, and permitted infiltration of all facets of western society.  Now the mask is off and the west is seeing the real face of Communism and doesn't like it.  The alliance of evil between the Communist countries is increasing it's dominance over the west and the west is floundering in panic and doesn't know which way to turn.  We are in a Cold War friends and it is time to wake up out of the slumber.  It is time to turn to God and his infallible word, be converted, and pray because that is the west's only hope at this point because this is a deadly serious situation which could get far worse. "12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."  Ephesians 6:12 KJB

Edited February 23, 2021 by blackbird

[OftenWrong]

10 minutes ago, blackbird said:

"11  And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. 12  For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret." Ephesian 5:11, 12 KJB The Bible warns of evil associations but apparently most politicians didn't get the message.

America, Canada, and the rest of the west ignored this Biblical principle and went into Communist China with eyes wide open and established relations, massive trade, education exchanges, immigration, investment, knowledge transfer, and permitted infiltration of all facets of western society.  Now the mask is off and the west is seeing the real face of Communism and doesn't like it.  The alliance of evil between the Communist countries is increasing it's dominance over the west and the west is floundering in panic and doesn't know which way to turn.  We are in a Cold War friends and it is time to wake up out of the slumber.  It is time to turn go God and his infallible word because this is a deadly serious situation which could get far worse for the world.

Communism, which is the final achievement of leftism, has no god. They promote their atheism by force. The Taliban had an answer for the Russians in that regard. Russians were routed by a bunch of bandy-legged peasants with worn-out rifles, because they had faith and courage. They would rather fight to the death, than live the life of a coward.

Edited February 23, 2021 by OftenWrong

[OftenWrong]

1 hour ago, Queenmandy85 said:

So, I presume you have contacted the Chinese consulate and purchased your airfare to go and replace one of the hostages place in a tiny cell.

But in practical terms, what would it accomplish? Just by exchanging one person for another, outcome is the same. The way to do something is to make it very uncomfortable for China to kill them, let alone torture or detain. The whole world knows why China has detained these Canadians right after Meng was held. Canada needs to position itself and control the message in such a way that it is untenable for China to do it. If they do it, let it be the moment that world leaders recoil from China in horror and reject their government. It has to be turned into a bad deal for China. No more Mr. Nice Guy.

[Nefarious Banana]

2 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

There are at least two Canadians awaiting execution in China and two Michaels being held as hostages. There are thousands of Canadians who are potential hostages in China. China is in a position where they hold all the power. 

When the high school bully has your head in the toilet, sometimes, all you can do is hold your breath.

So, what's your solution?  Think long term . . . be precise. What is your solution?

[cannuck]

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

American manufacturing job losses started long before that (early 1980's), and no, China is not why "tens of millions" of Americans lost their jobs....more like 4,000,000 give or take.   U.S. exports to China have also created jobs (e.g. Boeing, Caterpillar, etc.).

https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2020/01/us-loses-nearly-4-million-jobs-to-china-since-wto-entry.html

I can't find any numbers for Canada (as usual), but I doubt it was "millions" of job losses because of China as well.   Domestic decisions and labour costs also played a direct role in exported jobs across many industries to many countries, regardless of China.   

 

It is far more devastating that what is recorded as job losses.  When you take people out of productive manufacturing jobs and put them into WalMart greeter status to distribute good for China - you do immense damage to your economy - but still have the same number of "jobs".  I buy a lot of industrial supplies, and for a recent project, I tried my level best to buy certain once common fixtures made inside NAFTA - couldn't find a single one.  Almost all China, some Thailand, some Vietnam (which you can assume are probably Chinese owned).  Now, let's go into aviation:  if I want to buy the latest in technology in general aviation, I would be looking for an aircraft diesel engine.  Yes, some of them are made right here (there) in the good ole US of A - by China.  I might want the latest and greatest airframe (and largest selling genav airplanes in the world) you would head over to Cirrus...yup, made in the USofA...belongs to China.  Not just any Chinese company, but just as with the engines (Continental) belongs to AVIC - government of China.  Want the second largest selling airplane also with new tech diesel engines (that they make in house) would be Diamond...and once again belongs to a Chinese company - Wanfeng Auto Group.  Jobs still in Canada and Europe, but not working for Canadians or Europeans, working for Chinese masters.  China has gutted our supply chain in so many ways and places - and you/we are sitting there fat, dumb and happy to welcome them in to eat your/our lunch.

[Queenmandy85]

54 minutes ago, Nefarious Banana said:

So, what's your solution?  Think long term . . . be precise. What is your solution?

We have to approach this in partnership with the international community. Canada is a tiny country. Diplomatic pressure will achieve more than bluster and symbolic empty bravado. 

3 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

With bullies there is always pain. There's only one way to deal with them, and it too involves pain. But it's the only way.

But it is someone else's pain you are willing to involve. 

 

3 hours ago, blackbird said:

The west, and Canada especially, is in an extremely difficult position but got itself into it by it's own choice.

We did not put Xi in power and Canada did not charge Ms Weng. 

Canada opened up relations with China on behalf of the US Republican government and it was viewed as a great diplomatic achievement. In an age where war between the Great Powers is no longer thinkable, the best solution to avoid war is closer trade ties. It has resulted in significant improvement in the lives of many Chinese citizens. Under Moa, the Uighers and the people of Hong Kong would have been quietly exterminated. China has a long way to go but making them an enemy deprives us of any leverage. 

[blackbird]

22 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

We have to approach this in partnership with the international community. Canada is a tiny country. Diplomatic pressure will achieve more than bluster and symbolic empty bravado. 

But it is someone else's pain you are willing to involve. 

 

We did not put Xi in power and Canada did not charge Ms Weng. 

Canada opened up relations with China on behalf of the US Republican government and it was viewed as a great diplomatic achievement. In an age where war between the Great Powers is no longer thinkable, the best solution to avoid war is closer trade ties. It has resulted in significant improvement in the lives of many Chinese citizens. Under Moa, the Uighers and the people of Hong Kong would have been quietly exterminated. China has a long way to go but making them an enemy deprives us of any leverage. 

The Communist system is already an enemy of America and western democracies.  Pierre Trudeau cozied up with the CCP and Chairman Mao in 1970 and established diplomatic relations.  The Uyghurs and people of Hong Kong don't need Xi to lose their rights and the Uyghurs being exterminated is happening now even with close trade ties.  It is the Communist system which opposes human rights and is our adversary and was not recognized as such by Pierre Trudeau, and all politicians in Canada ever since.  You can't sit down and deal with the Devil without expecting to lose in the end or you can't expect a fair outcome by trading and dealing with them.  Liberals have thought all along that by dealing with them, the CCP would somehow change and become like the west.  This was part of the deception westerners and liberals swallowed. There is a price to pay and it is now at the Cold War stage as China extends it's influence and control over western nations.  The problem began in 1949 when China was taken over by Communist-Leninist and western liberals could not see the sinister implications for the future.

This actually goes back to the 1800s when certain missionaries from Canada traveled to China and began their work there.  Later in the 20th century some of them established some ties with leaders of the two main political movements and even their top leaders.  A few of these missionaries were badly misguided and became friends with the Communist revolutionary leaders and actually morally supported them.  This relationship seems to have continued after the revolution in 1949 and there was some connection with Canada's department of foreign affairs.  This led to Canada trying to establish relations between Canada and the CCP.  This finally happened when Canada became one of the first nations to establish diplomatic relations with the CCP in 1970 under the liberal leader Pierre Trudeau, who had a fascination with Communist dictatorships.

Edited February 23, 2021 by blackbird