What to do about China

[Argus]

This story has nothing and everything to do with Canada. It's about China's over the top response when the general manager of the Houston Rockets tweeted out a simple little support emoji for the people of Hong Kong. Most people probably aren't aware of it but the NBA has been courting China. Basketball is popular there, and the NBA sells a lot of merchandise. NBA games are on Chinese TV, and there are cooperative agreements with the Chinese' favorite teams, like the Houston Rockets. The NBA even plays exhibition games over there. This is an agreement that involves hundreds of millions of dollars.

But one tweet from one GM and China, as China does, went overboard, just as it did on Canada. It condemned the tweet, removed all the Houston Rockets merchandise from sale in China or on Chinese web sites, cancelled their cooperation agreement with the Rockets, and cancelled their coverage of the NBA pre-season games. In addition, all the NBA's Chinese business partners have no cut ties with the NBA. The article cited links to others which demonstrate China's bizarre sense of victimhood (hello Donald Trump), and the way their government stokes that sense of victimhood and outrage at any sort of 'humiliation' by foreigners. No matter how slight, the Chinese government blows it up into a huge incident, demanding apologies and promises to never again dare to offend them. And this is so routine there that you can easily see how they're able to cow other companies and countries into silence because even the slightest criticism brings the threat of massive retaliation.

Which means that those people who think that all Canada has to do is extradite Meng Wanzhou to the US and things will get back to normal are engaging in wishful thinking. It is clear that the only relationship China accepts, with foreign companies or foreign countries is one of meek servility. Even without the extradition case, even if we decided to send her back to China instead, all future relationships with China, even with some sort of signed trade agreements, will be contingent upon Canada keeping its mouth shut about Chinese human rights abuses and its militant behavior towards other countries, and meekly accepting whatever insults and violations of that agreement the Chinese decide to issue and make.

And yet Trudeau, and to some degree, Scheer, still seem to be under the illusion that if they just flatter and cajole the Chinese, and don't respond to their numerous insults directed at Canada, we can somehow 'mend' our relationship and then move on to ever greater trade. China's behaviour says otherwise. You either stand up to China, or act like China's bitch. It seems clear that Trudeau is quite happy to be China's bitch. I don't think the rest of Canada agrees.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/08/chinas-reaction-to-the-nba-is-the-wake-up-call-the-world-needed.html

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/09/nearly-all-of-the-nbas-chinese-partners-have-cut-ties-with-the-league.html

Edited October 10, 2019 by Argus

[Army Guy]

Perhaps it is time for a female PM, some one like Margret thatcher would be good. I mean we have already tried all the male wingnuts, the draw is empty...

[Rue]

China is only going to become more problematic. Its current leader is an old time Commie dictator and the country looks like its swinging back to Maoism.

[Rue]

7 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Perhaps it is time for a female PM, 

Well Trudeau is very close.

Here you go:

Prime Minister Celine Dion

 

 

Edited October 10, 2019 by Rue

[DogOnPorch]

9 minutes ago, Rue said:

Well Trudeau is very close.

Here you go:

Prime Minister Celine Dion

There are a few really good choices on the Conservative side.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candice_Bergen_(politician)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Rempel

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Wong

[Cannucklehead]

It's been done

[Moonlight Graham]

You join all of the OECD countries and form a trade alliance against China based on collective security (similar to NATO) where a trade attack against one is a trade attack against all, and then any transgression against a member country brings an economic response like sanctions from all countries.  Trump chose to go it alone.

I would also not mess or comment on any domestic or human rights issues within China, we can't do anything about it anyways.  We have to pick our fights, ones that really matter but that we can win.

[Moonlight Graham]

Maybe we can threaten to ship all of our manufacturing to India.  That would be hilarious.  Our govs should provide incentives for some corporations to build up our manufacturing base in India so we have an actual card to play.

[Moonlight Graham]

Maybe we can go to a mall in Vancouver where the Chinese sell a lot of counterfeit products and get them to make us some counterfeit hydrogen bombs and then drop some on some China warships in the pacific just to piss them off.

[OftenWrong]

We knew this would happen if our markets were increasingly dependent on China, eventually your chickens come home to roost. China uses its economic muscle to call the shots, and silence the critics. But we didn't do anything, couldn't, as we were too drunk on the easy money, selling our souls by the pound.

Donald Trump is the only man today standing up to China. We need to elect more leaders like president Trump. Because only a SOB like Trump can say to China what he says, and stay the course and not give in. That is the way to get their attention.

In fact one of the Trump administrations demands is that China do something about stemming the export of fentanyl which is coming out of China and flooding the whole world. Not a single other country/ leader has the gall to stand up to them. 

[Zeitgeist]

14 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

You join all of the OECD countries and form a trade alliance against China based on collective security (similar to NATO) where a trade attack against one is a trade attack against all, and then any transgression against a member country brings an economic response like sanctions from all countries.  Trump chose to go it alone.

I would also not mess or comment on any domestic or human rights issues within China, we can't do anything about it anyways.  We have to pick our fights, ones that really matter but that we can win.

I actually think Harper did better with China than Trudeau by taking a hawkish stance.  Push China away, slam them publicly on human rights, perhaps even close the embassy.  They have more to lose because they sell far more to us than the reverse.  In that harsh context, the only one China respects and understands, we can begin to discuss rebuilding relations in a highly conditional way.  I’d prefer that to the current approach, which is that business trumps all other considerations.  Even if all we cared about was business, China has been taking advantage more than we have.  The time to stand up is now, as Trump doesn’t appear to want to cave to China.  The alternative is caving to China.  

Edited October 10, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

...  The time to stand up is now, as Trump doesn’t appear to want to cave to China.  The alternative is caving to China.  

 

Really ?    Trump did not wait for Canada's support to confront China on trade.

[DogOnPorch]

8 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Maybe we can go to a mall in Vancouver where the Chinese sell a lot of counterfeit products and get them to make us some counterfeit hydrogen bombs and then drop some on some China warships in the pacific just to piss them off.

 

The only nation that still operates big H-Bomb city crackers is guess who?

[Moonlight Graham]

Trump has stood up to China, even if not in the best of ways sometimes, but I give him credit for trying in the best way he thinks he can at least.  On the negative side, he's unleashed the bear and we're all paying for it.

[Zeitgeist]

14 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Really ?    Trump did not wait for Canada's support to confront China on trade.

I respect Trump’s nerve in going after China, even if the execution has had mixed results.  I still think better enforcement of better international trade rules are the best long term solution.  Probably a trading block like the one Conrad Black recommends, for example, of Australia, Canada, New Zealand, UK, and Singapore, would provide additional leverage against China, which will overtake the US in economic size, as well as Europe.  Russia has always kept China and Iran onside, so we need more strategic partnerships as counterweights.  

Edited October 10, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

I respect Trump’s nerve in going after China, even if the execution has had mixed results.  I still think better enforcement of better international trade rules are the best long term solution.  Probably a trading block like the one Conrad Black recommends, for example, of Australia, Canada, New Zealand, UK, and Singapore, would provide additional leverage against China, which will overtake the US in economic size, as well as Europe.  Russia has always kept China and Iran onside, so we need more strategic partnerships.  

 

We've already tried that and the result has been the current situation.   WTO rulings typically take more than 10 years.   IP theft, dumping, transshipping still grew in scope/scale with China.

Trumps methods are crude and imprecise, but faster.    And Trump is not stupid enough to virtue signal a feminist agenda to China.

[Zeitgeist]

3 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

We've already tried that and the result has been the current situation.   WTO rulings typically take more than 10 years.   IP theft, dumping, transshipping still grew in scope/scale with China.

Trumps methods are crude and imprecise, but faster.    And Trump is not stupid enough to virtue signal a feminist agenda to China.

Trudeau is a Manchurean candidate.  He just doesn’t know who his master is yet.  Trudeau is in bed with China as Trump is in bed with Russia.  Both need to sneak out before sunrise because the jig is up.  

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

Trudeau is a Manchurean candidate.  He just doesn’t know who his master is yet.  Trudeau is in bed with China as Trump is in bed with Russia.  Both need to sneak out before sunrise because the jig is up.  

 

Trump already has his purpose/mission with China no matter what be his fate.   What Canada will do about China is Canada's decision, but so far, the decisions have not been very good/effective.   China does not respect weak Trudeau/Canada.

[Zeitgeist]

15 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Trump already has his purpose/mission with China no matter what be his fate.   What Canada will do about China is Canada's decision, but so far, the decisions have not been very good/effective.   China does not respect weak Trudeau/Canada.

Well Canada’s public policy and interpretation of world affairs does carry weight and has been used as a bridge between the US and Europe, communist regimes and NATO countries, and even in the Islamic world.  Canada is seen as a fairer and more outward looking country by some.  The US has a lot of enemies who don’t quite have the same hate-on for Canada.  Doesn’t make us better, but soft power has been our strength in the post-WW2 order.  Trudeau seemed to look the other way on China’s human rights record, which China reads as a green light.  Trudeau admitted he’s an admirer of China.  Trudeau is an appeaser.  He thinks it curries favour, but it only turns us into doormats.  I do think there’s an argument to be made for using China as a wedge against US hegemony, but between the two hegemons, most Canadians would prefer the US.  Trump has made Canadians more concerned about US power mongering and manipulation.  The Meng affair is a case in point.  Both China and the US come off badly in that situation.  Canada needs to be wary and less susceptible to influences from both countries, but the reality in Canada is that the US influence is pervasive.   We have to work within that framework to advance our interests.  

Edited October 10, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

.... I do think there’s an argument to be made for using China as a wedge against US hegemony, but between the two hegemons, most Canadians would prefer the US.  Trump has made Canadians more concerned about US power mongering and manipulation.  The Meng affair is a case in point.  Both China and the US come off badly in that situation.  Canada needs to be wary and less susceptible to influences from both countries, but the reality in Canada is that the US influence is pervasive.   We have to work within that framework to advance our interests.  

 

Canada is no longer seen as an "honest broker", no longer has a "seat at the table", is no longer a military "middle power", and has even declined in the peacekeeping roles of the past.    Canada is even seen as weak on climate change, despite the virtue signaling.

Canada cannot reasonably expect for the United States to bear the most burden in protecting the post WW2 international order while declining on so many fronts.

I guess the good news is that Canada cannot get much weaker....with new leadership....things can improve.

[Cannucklehead]

How is the trade war with china good?  U.s. is showing to be taking losses just as the Chinese are.  And if the u.s  doesnt bear the burden of ww2 like they did back then, then who will? 

And as for virtue signaling for climate change, trump laughed and made fun of Thunberg.  Yeah that's a really great guy.

 

Canada may not have all the answers for the solution but we definitely aren't what the problem is. 

[bush_cheney2004]

12 minutes ago, Cannucklehead said:

How is the trade war with china good?  U.s. is showing to be taking losses just as the Chinese are.  And if the u.s  doesnt bear the burden of ww2 like they did back then, then who will?

 

China ?   India ?   Russia ?    Why is there a permanent mindset that it must always be the United States to lead (and pay the bill) ?

Trade war goes after IP theft, transshipments, dumping, imbalances, etc.

 

Quote

And as for virtue signaling for climate change, trump laughed and made fun of Thunberg.  Yeah that's a really great guy.

 

Thunberg is a pawn.   The U.S. has actually reduced GHG emissions/growth better than Canada because of cheap, abundant natural gas from fracking.   U.S. government agencies (e.g. NASA/NOAA) contribute far more to climate change R&D than Canada is even capable of.

 

Quote

Canada may not have all the answers for the solution but we definitely aren't what the problem is. 

 

The solution is certainly not to always point at the USA or other nations to always lead/pay.

 

Edited October 10, 2019 by bush_cheney2004

[cannuck]

The US marketplace at 10x ours is the logical one to use to fight Chinese aggression.  China is not just aggressive in business and trade, it is predatory.  While Yurp is also a large market, can you imagine the Euroweenies standing up to anyone?   It would be as ridiculous as expecting the moron in Ottawa to rise above his Mr. Dressup personna.

[bush_cheney2004]

16 minutes ago, cannuck said:

The US marketplace at 10x ours is the logical one to use to fight Chinese aggression.  China is not just aggressive in business and trade, it is predatory.  While Yurp is also a large market, can you imagine the Euroweenies standing up to anyone?   It would be as ridiculous as expecting the moron in Ottawa to rise above his Mr. Dressup personna.

 

Chinese aggression ?    Not sure what you mean by this.

Both China and the USA are less dependent on export trade and foreign investment compared to Canada.   Perhaps the "fight" should begin at home.

[cannuck]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Chinese aggression ?    Not sure what you mean by this.

Both China and the USA are less dependent on export trade and foreign investment compared to Canada.   Perhaps the "fight" should begin at home.

What else would you call Chinese export, investment and business practices?  In countries all over Asia Pacific and Africa, they came in, raided the resources, killed off competitors with merciless tactics, sold their junk into those markets, moved on to screw over the next place.  There are several countries that just don't let China in any more.  China does not need to use their military to take over a country, they use their money and business tactics.