What to do about China

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, cannuck said:

What else would you call Chinese export, investment and business practices?  In countries all over Asia Pacific and Africa, they came in, raided the resources, killed off competitors with merciless tactics, sold their junk into those markets, moved on to screw over the next place.  There are several countries that just don't let China in any more.  China does not need to use their military to take over a country, they use their money and business tactics.

 

If you mean that China is a very aggressive trade competitor, that's very true.   Canada can't compete with very high union wages and virtue signaling a feminist agenda at trade negotiations.   China is an economic force that is not going away.

Canada already has a history of soliciting lots of foreign investment because of a lack of domestic capital.    China, like the USA and other nations, has easily taken advantage of this.  

[cannuck]

Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

If you mean that China is a very aggressive trade competitor, that's very true.   Canada can't compete with very high union wages and virtue signaling a feminist agenda at trade negotiations.   China is an economic force that is not going away.

Canada already has a history of soliciting lots of foreign investment because of a lack of domestic capital.    China, like the USA and other nations, has easily taken advantage of this.  

accurate assessment

It's not just that China is aggressive, they simply don't play by ANY set of rules.  What Westerners don't understand about Chinese culture is that it is the results that matter.  You simply ignore what had to be done to get them.

Edited October 10, 2019 by cannuck

[bush_cheney2004]

18 minutes ago, cannuck said:

accurate assessment

It's not just that China is aggressive, they simply don't play by ANY set of rules.  What Westerners don't understand about Chinese culture is that it is the results that matter.  You simply ignore what had to be done to get them.

 

Agreed...I worked with Chinese nationals for tech transfer of lamination coatings and interstitial materials processes, and they were very focused on the business objectives without any political BS.    They were attentive and eager to learn.     Men and women ready to get the job done as a single minded team.

The problem with Canada always looking to the USA to lead as a counterbalance to China is that you will get a Made in U.S.A. approach that focuses on American interests, which leads to even more whining and complaints about trade "bullying".

The one thing that Canada can control is its economic and military dependencies, but it refuses to take charge of its own fate.

[Zeitgeist]

10 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Canada is no longer seen as an "honest broker", no longer has a "seat at the table", is no longer a military "middle power", and has even declined in the peacekeeping roles of the past.    Canada is even seen as weak on climate change, despite the virtue signaling.

Canada cannot reasonably expect for the United States to bear the most burden in protecting the post WW2 international order while declining on so many fronts.

I guess the good news is that Canada cannot get much weaker....with new leadership....things can improve.

And I’m sure you think current US leadership is respected.  It’s not even there.  The US government executive branch is best known now for its sketchy dealings with Russia and Ukraine, as well as anti-democratic attempts at fascism.   Little soft power or credibility there.  You do have your hard power and now have to rely heavily on military and economic might to manipulate world affairs.   Not especially new, but certainly a few new mafia-boss type arrows in the quiver that would be right at home in Putin’s Russia.  

I do agree that Trudeau has revealed himself as naive and hypocritical.  I also think Canada needs to rebuild hard power.  I’m not sure Scheer is tough enough to make this happen.  Nevertheless, Canada is seen as an enclave of freedom and democracy, certainly more progressive than the current US administration.  How you see Trudeau and Trump depends entirely on your political leanings.  My guess is this clown show continues for many years to come in both countries.  

Edited October 10, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[Argus]

14 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

You join all of the OECD countries and form a trade alliance against China based on collective security (similar to NATO) where a trade attack against one is a trade attack against all, and then any transgression against a member country brings an economic response like sanctions from all countries.  Trump chose to go it alone.

I would also not mess or comment on any domestic or human rights issues within China, we can't do anything about it anyways.  We have to pick our fights, ones that really matter but that we can win.

So are we to continue to trade with a country, meet and greet its representatives while smiling for the camera, while it's burning people in ovens? I mean, how far do you go with this "Let's not mess with internal human rights concerns"?

[Argus]

13 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

We knew this would happen if our markets were increasingly dependent on China,

Our markets are not dependent on China. We are not dependent on China. But Trudeau seems desperate to make us more and more dependent.

I guess he just admires the basic efficiency of fascist governments too much.

[Moonlight Graham]

45 minutes ago, Argus said:

So are we to continue to trade with a country, meet and greet its representatives while smiling for the camera, while it's burning people in ovens? I mean, how far do you go with this "Let's not mess with internal human rights concerns"?

Well, China is technically committing genocide against some of its own Muslim people through forced sterilization.  The problem with human rights is that the entire developing world has major human rights issues and we would be not trading with any of them if we wanted them all to adhere to our standards.  If we trade with them and they become richer and more educated a country usually improves in most facets.  We've helped lift hundreds of millions of Chinese out of extreme poverty.

Even if China were burning its own people in ovens, what are we going to do about it?  We can't invade them.  I suppose we could have a trade war with them and throw down some sanctions, but that would also ravage our economy, these are hard choices.  Unless they're literally killing their own civilians en masse i wouldn't do much, keep trading.

[Moonlight Graham]

53 minutes ago, Argus said:

Our markets are not dependent on China. We are not dependent on China. But Trudeau seems desperate to make us more and more dependent.

I guess he just admires the basic efficiency of fascist governments too much.

Of course we're dependent on them, and they on us.  Our markets have taken a hit every time Trump & China have a big dispute.

[Argus]

6 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Well, China is technically committing genocide against some of its own Muslim people through forced sterilization.  The problem with human rights is that the entire developing world has major human rights issues and we would be not trading with any of them if we wanted them all to adhere to our standards.  If we trade with them and they become richer and more educated a country usually improves in most facets.  We've helped lift hundreds of millions of Chinese out of extreme poverty.

Even if China were burning its own people in ovens, what are we going to do about it?  We can't invade them.  I suppose we could have a trade war with them and throw down some sanctions, but that would also ravage our economy, these are hard choices.  Unless they're literally killing their own civilians en masse i wouldn't do much, keep trading.

Our trading with China enriches them and gives them access to more technology. They've used that wealth and that technology not only to improve their weapons systems but to improve their ability to control their people. Western companies like google work with them to censor all content for their people, while other companies help them enhance facial recognition systems and expand their video monitoring.

This contact also poisons us by making companies beholden to China. And not just companies. Our academic community are whores, and eagerly assist China in technological development while keeping mum on anything which they fear might insult China.The so called 'china experts' in our universities never dare say anything bad or critical about China lest they lose their access to China. Universities restrict statements about China lest they lose those profitable Chinese foreign students. Everywhere China is active in the west, through sponsorship agreements, advertising or contracts you see Canadians frantically apologizing for them and trying to crush any criticism. See the reaction of Blizzard the other day, or even what happened last summer at an Ottawa dragonboat festival. Not to mention we have a CSIS report that almost all Chinese language media in Canada are now controlled by pro-China businessmen, as evidenced by what happened this week.

Meanwhile China uses their free access to our markets to bribe politicians. Every Chinese controlled company in Canada and every company, large or small, which does a lot of business with China becomes complicit with them in helping to downplay human rights abuses while donating money to politicians so they can push the same message into their ears.

[Moonlight Graham]

39 minutes ago, Argus said:

Everywhere China is active in the west, through sponsorship agreements, advertising or contracts you see Canadians frantically apologizing for them and trying to crush any criticism. See the reaction of Blizzard the other day, or even what happened last summer at an Ottawa dragonboat festival.

Those examples are very disgusting.  I can see if the companies themselves choose not to be criticizing their trading partner, but punishing customers is disgusting and is censorship.  We should not be extending China's state-censorship to our own people.

China has a growing subverted grip on this country and it needs to be stopped, from media & political control to foreign investment.

[bush_cheney2004]

6 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

And I’m sure you think current US leadership is respected.  It’s not even there.  The US government executive branch is best known now for its sketchy dealings with Russia and Ukraine, as well as anti-democratic attempts at fascism.   Little soft power or credibility there.  You do have your hard power and now have to rely heavily on military and economic might to manipulate world affairs.   Not especially new, but certainly a few new mafia-boss type arrows in the quiver that would be right at home in Putin’s Russia. 

 

The U.S. has always relied on military and economic power...nothing new there.   The current U.S. administration is still respected more than Canada's on relative terms, and the key marker is China's different treatment/response to both.

 

Quote

I do agree that Trudeau has revealed himself as naive and hypocritical.  I also think Canada needs to rebuild hard power.  I’m not sure Scheer is tough enough to make this happen.  Nevertheless, Canada is seen as an enclave of freedom and democracy, certainly more progressive than the current US administration.  How you see Trudeau and Trump depends entirely on your political leanings.  My guess is this clown show continues for many years to come in both countries.  

 

The U.S. is not just one administration...and neither is Canada, which now finds itself in decline for key foreign policy attributes since the 1990's.

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

The U.S. has always relied on military and economic power...nothing new there.   The current U.S. administration is still respected more than Canada's on relative terms, and the key marker is China's different treatment/response to both.

 

 

The U.S. is not just one administration...and neither is Canada, which now finds itself in decline for key foreign policy attributes since the 1990's.

Military and economic force are the US’s only cards left to play in China.  China fears the US, which may appear as respect.  The US has to rely on those forces now that there’s such cynicism about any higher ideas touted by US leadership.  Canada is more trustworthy than the US.  Mind you, that’s always been the case.  We never had  shadow CIA armies selling opium to fund wars.  

Edited October 10, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

Military and economic force are the US’s only cards left to play in China.  The US has to rely on those forces now that there’s such cynicism about any higher ideas touted by US leadership.  Canada is more trustworthy than the US.  Mind you, that’s always been the case.  We never had  shadow CIA armies selling opium to fund wars.  

 

Please...Canada also has a colonial history in China.

The U.S. has always relied on military and economic power, and Canada has taken advantage of that more than many other nations.

Canada is so "trustworthy", China treats it like a chew toy, not so the United States.

This thread is about what Canada should do about China, not what Canada should do about China by always depending on the United States.

[Zeitgeist]

11 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Please...Canada also has a colonial history in China.

The U.S. has always relied on military and economic power, and Canada has taken advantage of that more than many other nations.

Canada is so "trustworthy", China treats it like a chew toy, not so the United States.

This thread is about what Canada should do about China, not what Canada should do about China by always depending on the United States.

You’re the one who continues to see Canada in US terms and doesn’t appreciate the particularities of the Canada-China relationship. Bethune is a Canadian hero in China, recognized by Mao.  Until the Wawei affair, Canada and China were celebrating a mutual appreciation year.  British Columbia’s Chinese diaspora is on the scale of a small country and there are 300000 CanadianHong Kong dual citizens.  The Sino-Canadian relationship will outlast any regimes in either country.  Our Chinatowns are some of the largest.  Who knows what’s possible with the right Chinese leadership?

Edited October 10, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

You’re the one who continues to see Canada in US terms and doesn’t appreciate the particularities of the Canada-China relationship. Bethune is a Canadian hero in China, recognized by Mao.  Until the Wawei affair, Canada and China were celebrating a mutual appreciation year.  British Columbia’s Chinese diaspora is on the scale of a small country and there are 300000 CanadianHong Kong dual citizens.  The Sino-Canadian relationship will outlast any regimes in either country.  Our Chinatowns are some of the largest.  Who knows what’s possible with the right Chinese leadership.  

 

Great...then there will be no more whining about Trump's trade war, as Canada will put on its big boy pants and stand up to China !

Trudeau and his Sunshine Band will stop begging the United States to "preserve the post WW2 order", because mighty Canada will use its "soft power" to win the day.

Yay !

 

 

[Moonlight Graham]

7 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Please...Canada also has a colonial history in China.

The U.S. has always relied on military and economic power, and Canada has taken advantage of that more than many other nations.

Canada is so "trustworthy", China treats it like a chew toy, not so the United States.

This thread is about what Canada should do about China, not what Canada should do about China by always depending on the United States.

The US has been more than willing since WWII to be the military leader for the West, and more aggressively so since the end of the Cold War.  They have military bases everywhere.  They get the military control which gives them political and economic control in other countries too.  That's the unspoken contract:  we and other western nations let the US have firm control of the global order, we get protection and the over-spill benefits.  It's a good deal for both.  It's also more efficient than mobilizing dozens of western nations towards similar goals.  Canada and the US have very similar goals when it comes to China.

[bush_cheney2004]

7 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

The US has been more than willing since WWII to be the military leader for the West, and more aggressively so since the end of the Cold War.  They have military bases everywhere.  They get the military control which gives them political and economic control in other countries too.  That's the unspoken contract:  we and other western nations let the US have firm control of the global order, we get protection and the over-spill benefits.  It's a good deal for both.  It's also more efficient than mobilizing dozens of western nations towards similar goals.  Canada and the US have very similar goals when it comes to China.

 

That "deal" is coming to an end.....the U.S. is broke.    China isn't part of the deal and will exert its own economic and military power.

Canada likes to talk a big virtuous game but cannot back it up.

Canada is a NATO deadbeat even under existing agreements, long before Trump's policies.

Edited October 10, 2019 by bush_cheney2004

[Army Guy]

21 hours ago, Rue said:

Well Trudeau is very close.

Here you go:

Prime Minister Celine Dion

 

 

I thought we gave her and Bieber to the US in exchange for some old hockey cards, 

[Nefarious Banana]

5 hours ago, Argus said:

Our markets are not dependent on China. We are not dependent on China. But Trudeau seems desperate to make us more and more dependent.

I guess he just admires the basic efficiency of fascist governments too much.

He'll have China charmed with his 'yellow face' song and dance routine . . . . 

Early polls open tomorrow . . . 

[bush_cheney2004]

This guy gets it.....

Quote

Canada must reassess its approach to China – if not, we may get steamrolled by the world’s new juggernaut

...But what the often sad and difficult story of Canada’s 150 years of involvement with China tells us is that we need to find a less self-delusional, more courageous and more intelligent way of dealing with the new version of the Middle Kingdom. If Canada does not reassess and rework its approach to Beijing, this country may be steamrollered by the new juggernaut of history.

...In the rapidly approaching future, Canada is not going to be able to rely on Washington as an ally in regional security or a trustworthy partner in investment and commerce. More than that, the end of the Pax Americana means that the champion of the international liberal values that have characterized global discourse and institutions since the Second World War and that are at the heart of Canadian nationhood is withdrawing from the field.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-canada-must-reassess-its-approach-to-china-if-not-we-may-get/

 

[OftenWrong]

5 hours ago, Argus said:

Our markets are not dependent on China. We are not dependent on China. But Trudeau seems desperate to make us more and more dependent.

I guess he just admires the basic efficiency of fascist governments too much.

Maybe markets was not quite the right word. Industries? For example when they threaten to ban imports of canola oil from us. Whole industries can be shut down because of political disagreement. Another reason why I say screw globalism. We need more sovereignty, more independence. Punish them the way they try to punish us.

Mike Pompeo gave out a pretty clear warning today. Doing business with these people is not unlike doing business with criminals. What more do you expect.

 

 

 

[-1=e^ipi]

Canada should recognize Taiwan (The Republic of China) as a country and pursue closer ties and free trade with Taiwan. The Republic of China is a wonderful freedom loving country where gay people are even allowed to get married. Better yet, kick gay-killing Brunei out of the TPP and replace it with Taiwan.

Tsai Ing-Wen is a wonderful president and it's a shame that we continue the Trudeau-Senior policy of ignoring the Republic of China and pretend they don't exist.

 

Edited October 11, 2019 by -1=e^ipi

[Moonlight Graham]

4 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

That "deal" is coming to an end.....the U.S. is broke.    China isn't part of the deal and will exert its own economic and military power.

Canada likes to talk a big virtuous game but cannot back it up.

Canada is a NATO deadbeat even under existing agreements, long before Trump's policies.

Canada contributed far more to Afghanistan than most NATO countries.  We've been involved in Libya and Syria.

US, Canada, and other OECD countries should team up against China.  They're the real enemy to watch, Russia is a joke compared to China.

[DogOnPorch]

48 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Canada contributed far more to Afghanistan than most NATO countries.  We've been involved in Libya and Syria.

US, Canada, and other OECD countries should team up against China.  They're the real enemy to watch, Russia is a joke compared to China.

 

Red China...while indeed formidable...has very little ability to project their power other than at the tip of an ICBM. BC-2004 can probably confirm that Red China's various nuclear powered boomer submarines (Types 92-94) are extremely noisy for something that needs to be sneaky. But, they're cheap next to a US boomer...probably 8 of the newest type exists by various estimates.  

Many of the aircraft used by Red China are pretty old school. Sure they have a few examples of various modern generation aircraft. But the bulk are still pretty ancient. Red Chinese pilots are also not known for their comparable flying skills if history bears out...Korea and onward.

Huge armies on the ground are actually at an extreme disadvantage these days. This isn't WW2. 

China is improving its amphibious capabilities...but have little in the way of systems to support such a force.

In space, Red China has found out what the US learned way back during the Gemini Program...you can't use hypergolic fuels to launch humans safely. Not only are they dangerous and unpredictable, but the pogo oscillation that build up results in extreme eyeball & inner ear vibration (via the unique combustion of the fuel). Space sickness guaranteed. No amount of engineering has been able to fix this bit yet.

Edited October 11, 2019 by DogOnPorch

[bush_cheney2004]

47 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Canada contributed far more to Afghanistan than most NATO countries.  We've been involved in Libya and Syria.

US, Canada, and other OECD countries should team up against China.  They're the real enemy to watch, Russia is a joke compared to China.

 

Canada was willing to fight more than most NATO countries, but did not have the investment in defence to properly equip Canadian Forces (they paid the price instead), support them, or sustain other operations significantly.    Canada did/could not deploy strike fighters to Afghanistan...it was a war too far.

There is no teaming up against China, as it now has the critical mass for economic growth from its increasing middle class, same as America in the 20th century.   It is no coincidence that China is following American examples for power and influence, but China has done this several times before in history, long before the British or Spanish.

China will not tolerate Canada's shrill virtue signaling and human rights agenda, because it doesn't have to.