France's Muslim no-go zones

[DogOnPorch]

2 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Most Muslims are better than their religion.  

 

That's false by definition. You're a Muslim if you follow Islam. Islam isn't a race nor is it a skin colour.

[DogOnPorch]

5 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Islam is a religion that supports misogyny, violence, homophobia and other exclusionary beliefs.  Some governments and individuals use that to control and impose draconian punishments on people. 

 

BTW: what's the punishment recommended by Islam for becoming an apostate? 

[Goddess]

22 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Islam is a religion that supports misogyny, violence, homophobia and other exclusionary beliefs.  Some governments and individuals use that to control and impose draconian punishments on people.  Most Muslims are better than their religion.  

While I have no doubt that some Muslims choose to ignore certain parts of the religion, I'm not as confident as you that when a religion's mainstream teachings are misogyny, violence, homophobia, death to apostates and non-believers and that their religion's divine destiny is to overtake the rest of the world  that it has no effect on its followers.  The facts of what is happening in Islam around the world tell me the religion DOES affect how they behave.

There are millions of JW's who would obediently sacrifice their children to their blood transfusion laws.  There are millions of Scientologists who subscribe wholeheartedly to destroying any they deem as "enemies" of Scientology.  There are millions of Mormons who willingly shun family who are not Mormon.

Why do you believe that Islam is the only religion that the majority of followers do not actually adhere to the tenets of the faith?  On what do you base that?  You have said before that just because a man insists his wife wear a burqa, it does not mean he's misogynistic.  Do you realize how absurd that sounds?

I suppose the ones throwing 210 homosexuals off rooftops also do not believe homosexuality is wrong?

 

Edited September 19, 2019 by Goddess

[dialamah]

33 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Why do you believe that Islam is the only religion that the majority of followers do not actually adhere to the tenets of the faith?  On what do you base that?

So it's not that I don't think Muslim don't follow the "tenants of their" faith, I just don't think the "tenants of their faith" are as set in stone as you and DoP and Argus would have us believe.   Therefore,  Muslim individuals can follow their faith without actually behaving like ISIS.  

I do not believe most Muslims will kill gays, disbelievers or apostates.  I do believe most of them think gays cannot be Muslims.   Most countries that make homosexuality illegal jail them, thwy don't kill them outright. 

They may believe that apostates and non-believers will/should die, but I believe most of them expect someone else to do it- Allah or their government.  Not many really think it's up to them to kill them.  

I believe most Muslims believe women should submit to their husbands/fathers/brothers.  I don't believe most of them believe it's ok to beat the crap out of the women in their family, but I have no problem believing such domestic abuse is more prevalent among Muslims than among Western Christians.

I also don't believe actual pedophilia is more common among Muslims than among the general non-Muslim population.  I do believe child marriage is more socially acceptable in the MENA region than in the West.

I don't believe Islam is the only driver of most of these things because similar social attitudes are prevalent among non-Muslims as well in that part of the world.

As for Sharia - its practiced in many different ways in the world, so the warning that "Creeping Sharia" can only end in all Western women wearing Burkas and risking life and limb if we don't conform makes no sense to me.  Anyway I don't believe any widespread Sharia is likely in the West, despite the existence of councils to address some limited family/inheritance things.  I do disagree with these councils, just for the record. 

Finally, among Muslims in Western lands, those that are born here are likely to grow up more progressive than their parents; 25% of them actually leave Islam (based on US figures). Sadly, that 25% is replaced by Western converts (mostly from Christianity), but it's a stretch to believe that those converts are going to embrace the most violent form of Islam, as preached by DoP.  

Ergo, the Western version of Islam is becoming and will become more progressive over time.  I think even in MENA that will happen, especially with increasing influence from Western born and raised Muslims.

 

Edited September 19, 2019 by dialamah

[dialamah]

37 minutes ago, Goddess said:

suppose the ones throwing 210 homosexuals off rooftops also do not believe homosexuality is wrong?

210?  All at once?  Over time? Cite? 

I've heard of a couple of incidents where ISIS members have done that, and was generally condemned by Muslims.

[marcus]

2 hours ago, Goddess said:

I've provided 2 links to writers who have commented on the shirts.  That you refuse to accept either of them, does not make it "unfounded BS."

Is it Goddess "spreading BS" by talking about the tshirts, or is it Muslims who are actually wearing them in deference to the Koranic verse quoted by Dog above that are "spreading BS"?

 

There is no proof by you or Dog or anyone here that proves your comment that "the most popular tshirt for Muslims is a shirt that says "2030 - then we take over".

How can anyone quantify this? Is there some kind of registry of over 1 billion Muslims that measures the most popular shirt? This is why your comment is bullshxt.

Your problem is that you want to label Muslims based on selective incidents, comments and videos. This was displayed by you when I pointed to a video you posted where you tried to label Iranians or Iranian men (Muslim men) as being like the two people who were harassing the Iranian woman who was filming them. Of course, you failed to point to the large number of Iranian men who came to her rescue. Isn't it curious that you take the bad and never the good when you want to label Muslims?

This is your problem. You continuously label and stereotype a large number of people based on selective and limited information. You're wrong for doing that.

Edited September 19, 2019 by marcus

[taxme]

5 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Sealioning. You have no intention of agreeing with the poster no matter how many cites he or she could provide.

People want cites? Go on Youtube. Plenty there to see and read. They are all there about how Muslims are enforcing Sharia law in their no go zones. They have patrols that go around to try and intimidate anyone who does not want to adhere to Islamic law in there no go zones. 

[Goddess]

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

but it's a stretch to believe that those converts are going to embrace the most violent form of Islam,

You make some good points, but I seem to remember you stating the opposite of this in another discussion.  You claimed that most terrorists were recent converts to Islam and thus did not understand the religion.

It makes me think you just say whatever you have to at the time to cover for Islam.

And it's not the first time you've contradicted yourself.  I just let most of it pass.

Edited September 19, 2019 by Goddess

[taxme]

14 hours ago, marcus said:

What can I say little buddy? You're a victim of accepting everything that is fed to you. You need to go beyond the facebook memes. There is SO MUCH information out there, challenging with precision, how this "NO GO ZONE" is all bullshit.

Check this link for example. There are many others as well. Like here and here. 

Here is an excerpt:
 

Overall Conclusions

When one delves beyond the realm of maps and dives into social media, there are clearly many other examples of claims of “no go zones” in London.Perhaps a future post can delve into these if there are sufficient interest. These examples cited above broadly cover the majority of the claims. Indeed, claims based on these maps are generally more detailed than many claims on Twitter, which often use vague terms like “East London” or absurd terms like “Eastern London” (nobody in London uses this term) or “Londonistan.”

Several general trends emerge upon examination. While some claims are fabricated entirely out of whole cloth, others take actual events and either draw odd conclusions or twist them out of proportion. The fact that the London Borough of Tower Hamlets had a Muslim mayor for some years led to odd claims that the area was under Sharia law, deliberately muddling the religion of the mayor with the legal framework of governance. The election of Sadiq Khan as Mayor of Greater London has furthered such claims.

In addition, isolated examples have been taken out of context and purported to be representative of widespread circumstances. For example, three extremists formed an unsanctioned “Sharia patrol” and harrassed people in Bethnal Green, Stepney, and Shoreditch (all areas in East London). These individuals were arrested, tried, and jailed. In another incident, the so-called “Ginger Jihadi” was jailed for similar conduct. Videos of both are routinely circulated as evidence.

The best way to debunk the “no go zone” phenomenon is to go to these areas and either observe or engage in conduct that is obviously not in accordance with strict application of Sharia laws. This author’s own efforts in this area have been well noted in the last year, as shown by this example and this one.

Hold on here? Are you trying to tell us all that what you say about Muslims is the gospel truth and we have nothing to fear from them? The Muslims have committed many crimes in France and Germany and Britain and all those stories are just made up stories? I have seen T-shirts on Mulsims that have said that Britain will be Muslim one day. That is a threat, buddy boy. They go around and patrol the streets that they now live in Britain and try to intimidate and threaten anyone who does not adhere to Sharia law in their no go Islamic zones. Booze and women not wearing a scarf on their heads are threatened all the time. And why would you believe that nonsense about how nice and wonderful Muslim people are when they have said many times that anyone who is not a Muslim is an infidel and they must be killed. Try being a Christian or a homosexual and living in an Islamic country and watch and see what happens to you. They will stone a woman to death or chop off someone's head. And there are some Muslims here that say that Britain will be Muslim in another couple of decades or so. What does that tell you, my little buddy? Many have gone and saw for themselves what living in some Muslim city in Europe  is all about. Muslims are the most boring bunch of religious zealots that the world has ever created. Living in a Muslim neighborhood would be like living in a no fun zone. No drinking, no partying, no gambling and no dancing and no pay for play sex anymore. I prefer to live in an infidel zone. I have more fun there. 

Did you ever give much thought to the idea that it may be you that is the victim here and you are absorbing and is being fed way to much Islamic manure that is being spread around by the pro immigration Muslim lobby and your local leftist liberal media who want more Muslims to immigrate to all the western countries in the world, little buddy? Spooky, man. 

[Goddess]

1 hour ago, marcus said:

There is no proof by you or Dog or anyone here that proves your comment that "the most popular tshirt for Muslims is a shirt that says "2030 - then we take over".

I've provided 2 quotes from authors of well-researched books.  Don't believe the tshirts exist if you don't want to.  I don't really care.  

**shrug**

Quote

You have no intention of agreeing with the poster no matter how many cites he or she could provide.

 

[dialamah]

5 minutes ago, Goddess said:

You make some good points, but I seem to remember you stating the opposite of this in another discussion.  You claimed that most terrorists were recent converts to Islam and thus did not understand the religion.

It makes me think you just say whatever you have to at the time to cover for Islam.

What I probably said was that home-grown terrorists were likely to be recent converts, and that even in the ME joiners of ISIS were unlikely to have been well-schooled in Islam.

In the States, there are approximately 3.45 million Muslims.  If 25% of those are new converts, that's 862,000.  The incidence of home grown terror attacks are pretty small compared to total number of converts.  Most converts to any religion do not go for the most extreme version, but some do.  So it can be true both that many new converts will help create a more progressive Islam and that some new converts can be easier turned to extremism.  

[Goddess]

1 hour ago, marcus said:

There is no proof by you or Dog or anyone here that proves your comment that "the most popular tshirt for Muslims is a shirt that says "2030 - then we take over".

How can anyone quantify this? Is there some kind of registry of over 1 billion Muslims that measures the most popular shirt? This is why your comment is bullshxt.

Your problem is that you want to label Muslims based on selective incidents, comments and videos. This was displayed by you when I pointed to a video you posted where you tried to label Iranians or Iranian men (Muslim men) as being like the two people who were harassing the Iranian woman who was filming them. Of course, you failed to point to the large number of Iranian men who came to her rescue. Isn't it curious that you take the bad and never the good when you want to label Muslims?

This is your problem. You continuously label and stereotype a large number of people based on selective and limited information. You're wrong for doing that.

You only want to nitpick.

The point of the video was someone wanted proof that women are being harassed for a lock of hair falling out of a hijab.  I provide the video and now you deny it because some people forced a taxi to take the woman anyways.  Whether others step in to help or not - was not under discussion.

The point of the tshirt is that it exists and is worn by enough Muslims that its existence and popularity made it into 2 books (that I know of).  The exact number of Muslims wearing it was not under discussion.

This is what apologists  do - detract and distract from what is going on in Islam. Muslims wearing that tshirt and women being harrassed over hijabs is okay with you but pointing out such things somehow makes ME the  bad person.

[dialamah]

15 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I've provided 2 quotes from authors of well-researched books.  Don't believe the tshirts exist if you don't want to.  I don't really care.  

He never said the tshirts don't exist, he says you haven't proven your assertion that they "are the most popular among Muslims".  Why would you claim he said something he didn't?

[Goddess]

7 minutes ago, dialamah said:

He never said the tshirts don't exist, he says you haven't proven your assertion that they "are the most popular among Muslims".  Why would you claim he said something he didn't?

Geez!  I wish you nitpicked Islam as much as you nitpick apart those who criticize it.  Which is why I didn't say, "Marcus said such and such".

I said he was free to believe they don't exist if he wants to.  or believe whatever he wishes.  Instead of discussing the actual shirt and its implications, you both want to discuss the exact number of Muslims wearing it.

 

18 minutes ago, dialamah said:

What I probably said was that home-grown terrorists were likely to be recent converts, and that even in the ME joiners of ISIS were unlikely to have been well-schooled in Islam.

In the States, there are approximately 3.45 million Muslims.  If 25% of those are new converts, that's 862,000.  The incidence of home grown terror attacks are pretty small compared to total number of converts.  Most converts to any religion do not go for the most extreme version, but some do.  So it can be true both that many new converts will help create a more progressive Islam and that some new converts can be easier turned to extremism.  

Exactly.  Whichever argument fits what you're trying to excuse in Islam  at the time - you use.

 

Edited September 19, 2019 by Goddess

[dialamah]

13 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Exactly.  Whichever argument fits what you're trying to excuse in Islam  at the time - you use.

Life is not black and white, people behave differently for a variety of reasons.

Most Muslims are not terrorists, even if some wear a tshirt saying "2030 We take over", are recent converts or life-long believers.

Some Muslims are (or will be) terrorists, even if they don't wear a tshirt, are recent converts or life-long believers.

Most home grown terrorists are young men who feel alienated from larger society, whether Islamic or Right-Wing.

Not every young man who feels alienated will become a terrorist.

All those things are true, it's not a matter of saying completely different things to excuse some people but not others.

[Goddess]

Quote

 

210?  All at once?  Over time? Cite? 

I've heard of a couple of incidents where ISIS members have done that, and was generally condemned by Muslims.

 

 

I believe it was in a month and I think it was Iran. It had something to do with Ramadan celebrations - that's why I think it was a month time period.  I was reading it recently but I forget where.  The exact number was not important to me - only that it was happening. I remember the number only because it was shocking to me. #1 because how many of them were innocent men who just were not considered "manly" enough and #2 - how many were innocent men who were turned in as homosexuals by someone who had a grudge against them.

I'll try to find the cite, although I'm sure you will not accept it - wherever it was, since you believe even ISIS has only thrown "a couple" off rooftops and that Muslims "condemned it".     

  sadly funny

 oy vey!

Edited September 19, 2019 by Goddess

[Guest]

10 hours ago, dialamah said:

It's actually in the guidelines, along with "don't be a troll", and "don't insult other posters":

"Research Your Post:

If you are stating a fact, be prepared to back it up with some official sources (website links etc).....Therefore, it is in your best interest to make sure that your post includes sufficient sources and contains a well-researched and well-organized argument"

Anecdotal stuff generally holds more emotional weight for people than facts, just the way humans are.  I live in Surrey BC and some people who live here believe Surrey has the highest gun crime in Canads, but it's actually way down the list, 60th according to Macleans.

Marcus's link provides an analysis of several claimed Muslim no-go zones, by someone who lives in London.  Some of the claimed no-go zones include financial districts, malls, airports and the Tower of London.  Data of comings and goings via public transport show 10s of millions of people entering and leaving these "no-go zones".  Cameras in these areas also show a diversity of people.  The origin of these claims, when traced back, originates from far right sources. 

 

10 hours ago, dialamah said:

Except you are not sitting around a kitchen table having a few beer.  This is a forum where opinions are expected to be supported through the use of cites.  You are the one doing it wrong, not the people who provide and expect to see cites.

Yeah, I don't know what to tell you.  I have, in the past, said that I saw this place as sitting around a table in a pub, which is a bit more fun than a kitchen table.  I don't particularly see how opinions are supported by cites.  If that were the case, and the cites could be trusted, they would be facts, not opinions.

I might be well be wrong.  About how it's all done I mean.  Never with my opinions.

[dialamah]

3 hours ago, Goddess said:

I'll try to find the cite,  

I tried, but the only news stories I could find were about Iran hanging two or three (the stories weren't clear), a reporter challenging Iran on hanging gays and about Iran's government defending their right to set their own laws.  There was a story out of Afghanistan about 200 civilians being killed over Ramadan, but these included women and children.

3 hours ago, Goddess said:

wherever it was, since you believe even ISIS has only thrown "a couple" off rooftops and that Muslims "condemned it".     

My belief is based on stuff I've read here and there from credible sources.  Some random on the internet telling me that 200 gay people were thrown from a roof somewhere by an unidentified someone (or someones) during Ramadan, but can't provide a source, then tosses in a snide comment is not a very "compelling" argument. 

Anyhow, Iraq apparently disapproves of throwing gays off roofs, since they've arrested a (ISIS) guy for doing so.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, marcus said:

I am challenging the tshirt comment. Yes, for something like that, you need to back up your comment. 

So-called Goddess doesn't miss an opportunity to defame Muslims. She continuously makes outrageous  comments like "the most popular tshirt for Muslims is a shirt that says "2030 - then we take over" and you want me to just forget about it and just treat it as a passing comment. Maybe you're okay with living in this fake news world, but I'm not. I'm going to challenge them until "I'm blue in the face". 

Re: Bradford

Have you or any of your friends who are afraid to go to the area been attacked by Muslims? Is it possible that their fears are based on the very same unfounded b.s. that Goddess is spreading? Maybe they too believe that the most popular tshirt for Muslims is one that says "2030 - then we take over". Maybe they also believe that the UK government is changing its laws to Shariah?

No I don't.  I never said anything about a Tshirt.  I commented on MH's comment that discussion needs cites.  It doesn't. (Not withstanding the rules, which are wrong, obviously)

As for Bradford, It's possible, and they might.  That sounds like wishful thinking on your part though, and my opinion is, that of all of you, I'll believe them first.

What's your view on Muslim areas classed as no go?  Given that the first thing we need is a definition.  If women are verbally accosted for what they wear, and are therefore scared to go into an area, is it a no go area? (a #MeToo issue?)  Or do you want an area to be off limits to unarmed police due to safety reasons before you would consider it a no go area?

And the T shirt.  Is it your contention that the T shirt does not exist, that it was made up by the author of the book, or are you simply suggesting it is not the most popular T shirt for Muslims these days?  Actually not popular at all?  For my part, I had never heard of it until this thread, and I feel no need to defend the quote. 

Edit>  When there's a few pages been added while I was at work I generally respond to people first and then read the thread if I have time.  I see now that someone else asked you about the T shirt and you responded.

Edited September 20, 2019 by bcsapper

[DogOnPorch]

Again...squawking on about a T-Shirt when the Quran states clearly of Islam's intentions of world domination and YOUR submission to it...be you believer or infidel.

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

Again...squawking on about a T-Shirt when the Quran states clearly of Islam's intentions of world domination and YOUR submission to it...be you believer or infidel.

It's difficult to argue that increasing Islamic influence is a good thing.  Those who point out the egregious nature of the poorer aspects of the religion will always find themselves falling foul of a single unprovable point, as it provides an out.  It's the same as the "not all Muslims" argument.

I don't think there is any doubt that Islamic influence is increasing in Europe and around the world, and I don't think there is any doubt that that is a bad thing, not a good thing.

Edited September 20, 2019 by bcsapper
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. It really is not a good idea to encourage them - Blaise Pascal, if he'd had more time that day

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, bcsapper said:

Agreed, it's difficult to argue that increasing Islamic influence is a good thing.  Those who are against people pointing out the egregious nature of the poorer aspects of the religion will always find themselves falling foul of a single unprovable point, as it provides an out.  It's the same as the "not all Muslims" argument.

I don't think there is any doubt that Islamic influence is increasing in Europe and around the world, and I don't think there is any doubt that that is a bad thing, not a good thing.

 

Well...the Not All Muslims argument is pretty much Trump Jr's Skittles comment. While it is on-point...it doesn't address the problem. Some Muslims WILL...so to speak. And what's worse...there's no giant red T painted on them to tell that they're one of the baddies. It could be any Muslim...remember...Jihad wipes out all your Earthly sins...at least for males. Plus you get the Platinum wrist band re: Paradise.

As for No Go zones. The Quran also clearly states that you are not to make friends with the Infidel until he/she aligns his/her cause with Allah. While some Muslims might ignore this bit...other WILL NOT...creating enclaves of Islam in Western countries.

[marcus]

19 hours ago, Goddess said:

You only want to nitpick.

It's not nitpicking. It's encouraging honest discussions. You are not being honest.

19 hours ago, Goddess said:

The point of the tshirt is that it exists and is worn by enough Muslims

No. The point is that you shared a statement saying that "the most popular tshirt for Muslims is a shirt that says "2030 - then we take over"

This is obviously a bullshxt statement. Now that you're being challenged, you want to pass the buck and blame it on some quote from a book, like a quote from a book are facts. Or pretend that it's not a big deal that you're trying to spread a lie.

19 hours ago, Goddess said:

that its existence and popularity made it into 2 books (that I know of).  The exact number of Muslims wearing it was not under discussion.

But it is. When you say the most popular tshirt worn by Muslims calls for a Muslim take over, it means that majority of Muslims want to take over. 

19 hours ago, Goddess said:

This is what apologists  do -

Hey. I'm not the one on here spreading bullshxt. Stop being an apologist for fake news. 

 

[Guest]

I think it's probably the case that the T shirt exists, and some Muslims wear it.  It's like Justin wearing blackface.  It's not the end of the world, but they ought to know better.

 

[Rolfs]

Canada should limit immigration to non-Muslim countries only. Islam is incompatible with Western Democracies