Yzermandius19 Posted December 3, 2019 Report Share Posted December 3, 2019 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: I was always a classical liberal, your influence was more to the libertarian side of things, I am far more libertarian than I was before. That's what I mean though. I was always a classical liberal, even when I was a lefty, I just didn't apply that to economics, because I bought into that all that bullshit about free market capitalism only being good for the rich at the expense of everyone else, and the right only caring about the rich. But then I started looking into which economic systems actually did the best at helping out those who aren't, and it turns out, the classical liberals were right about economics too, not just social issues, so that lead to me jettisoning the left wing economics pretty damn quick and embrace libertarianism more broadly. Dr Y has that classical liberal streak in him too, he just buys into too much propaganda about the negatives of the right and the positives of the left, and once he jettisons that, he'll be a lot less of a jellyfish. Edited December 3, 2019 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted December 3, 2019 Report Share Posted December 3, 2019 1 minute ago, Yzermandius19 said: That's what I mean though. I was always a classical liberal, even when I was a lefty, I just didn't apply that to economics, because I bought into that all that bullshit about capitalism only being good for the rich at the expense of the poor, and the right only caring about the rich. But then I started looking into which economic systems actually did the best at helping out the poor, and it turns out, the classical liberals were right about economics too, not just social issues, so that lead to me jettisoning the left wing economics pretty damn quick and embrace libertarianism more broadly. I frankly never really had an economic ideology, being in the military, my concept of right and left was towards and away from the Crown. To the right with me, was Her Majesty, to the left, was the Soviets, but it wasn't about economics for me, it was about freedom from Bolshevist tyranny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted December 3, 2019 Report Share Posted December 3, 2019 See the reason I became a Thatcherite was not economic theory, it was because she stood up to the Provisional Irish Republican Army, the Argentine Junta, and the Soviet Politburo. Margaret Thatcher was my war chief, took the hard decisions, sunk the Belgrano, the Iron Lady. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted December 3, 2019 Report Share Posted December 3, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: I frankly never really had an economic ideology, being in the military, my concept of right and left was towards and away from the Crown. To the right with me, was Her Majesty, to the left, was the Soviets, but it wasn't about economics for me, it was about freedom from Bolshevist tyranny. I didn't think I did either, until I realized I had been drinking the socialist kool-aid and had mistaken that for a lack of ideology, then I spit that shit out right quick and corrected the error. My libertarian streak could no longer tempered by feckless virtue signaling about socialism being the best way to help the downtrodden, and I was off to the races, Red Pill City. Edited December 3, 2019 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted December 3, 2019 Report Share Posted December 3, 2019 2 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said: I didn't think I did either, until I realized I had been drinking the socialist kool-aid and had mistaken that for a lack of ideology, then I spit that shit out right quick and corrected the error. My view of socialism is the Communist view of socialism, in that socialism is simply the transitional stage on the way to Communism. Which is Bolshevist tyranny. These so called Democratic Socialists simply lack the courage of their convictions, because they are bourgeois, as the Communists would say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted December 3, 2019 Report Share Posted December 3, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: My view of socialism is the Communist view of socialism, in that socialism is simply the transitional stage on the way to Communism. Which is Bolshevist tyranny. These so called Democratic Socialists simply lack the courage of their convictions, because they are bourgeois, as the Communists would say. I bought into the socialism not being about getting to communism, but just the best way to help out the losers of free market capitalism and that those who disagreed simply didn't care about the losers. I never saw it for what it truly was until much later. Jettisoning my misguided demonization of economic success was a hurdle that needed to be overcome, it was a major problem for me until I saw the light. Once I realized the truth of it, the libertarian streak took care of the rest and allowed for quick and easy conversion away from the socialist bullshit. Edited December 3, 2019 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted December 3, 2019 Report Share Posted December 3, 2019 1 minute ago, Yzermandius19 said: I bought into the socialism not being about getting to communism, but just a way to help out the losers of free market capitalism and that those who disagreed simply didn't care about the losers. I never saw it for what it truly was until much later. Jettisoning my misguided demonization of economic success was a hurdle that needed to be overcome, it was a major problem for me until I saw the light. I have no respect for 'Democratic Socialists', a bunch of prattling phonies, spineless bourgeois twits who enjoy the benefits of the markets while railing against them. A Communist however, with the courage of their convictions, prepared to kill and die for the revolution, them I can respect, though we be sworn enemies in the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted December 3, 2019 Report Share Posted December 3, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: I have no respect for 'Democratic Socialists', a bunch of prattling phonies, spineless bourgeois twits who enjoy the benefits of the markets while railing against them. A Communist however, with the courage of their convictions, prepared to kill and die for the revolution, them I can respect, though we be sworn enemies in the end. See the Democratic Socialists had my respect back then, I couldn't see them for what they truly were, I was basically one of them with a classical liberal streak that couldn't recognize the obvious contradiction. But then the libertarian streak allowed me to see them as the prattling phony spinless bourgeois twits enjoying the benefits of the market while railing against them, that they truly are. After I realized that even when they set the goal posts, they still lose the game to classical liberals very badly, even when it comes to economics, the one big issue that I had previously been sure they had it wrong on and simply didn't care, then the house of cards could not stand and the classical liberal in me was freed of the biggest baggage holding me back. Edited December 3, 2019 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted December 3, 2019 Report Share Posted December 3, 2019 7 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said: See the Democratic Socialists had my respect back then, I couldn't see them for what they truly were, I was basically one of them with a classical liberal streak that couldn't recognize the obvious contradiction. But then the libertarian streak allowed me to see them as the prattling phony spinless bourgeois twits enjoying the benefits of the market while railing against them, that they truly are. After I realized that even when they set the goal posts, they still lose the game to classical liberals very badly, even when it comes to economics, the one big issue that I had previously been sure they had it wrong on and simply didn't care, then the house of cards could not stand and the classical liberal in me was freed of the biggest baggage holding me back. While I lacked the libertarian streak, being in the military, one tends to lean authoritarian : all problems can be solved by asserting authority, which turns out to not be the case at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted December 3, 2019 Report Share Posted December 3, 2019 (edited) Cant even respect the communists willing to kill and die for the World Socialist Revolution, because they are jumping the gun and slowing down their end goal by pushing socialism and demonizing free market capitalism. A communist with actual real courage of his convictions would embrace free market capitalism as the fastest way to a post-scarcity utopia, hell even Marx did that. These communists who think they can put the cart before the horse, skip free market capitalism and go right to socialism, are not to be respected, they are just impatient feckless virtue signalers that care more about intentions than results. Edited December 3, 2019 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted December 3, 2019 Report Share Posted December 3, 2019 3 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said: Cant even respect the communists willing to kill and die for the World Socialist Revolution, because they are jumping the gun and slowing down their end goal by pushing socialism and demonizing free market capitalism. A communist with actual real courage of his convictions would embrace free market capitalism as the fastest way to a post-scarcity utopia, hell even Marx did that. These communists who think they can put the cart before the horse are not to be respected, they are just feckless virtue signalers that care more about intentions than results. I can respect any man prepared to kill and die for his convictions and cause, as an infantryman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted December 3, 2019 Report Share Posted December 3, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: I can respect any man prepared to kill and die for his convictions and cause, as an infantryman. Sure, but that has nothing with their ideology. When it comes to their ideology, if they are actively undermining their stated cause, that is not worthy of respect. Like I can respect someone who is actually speeding up the achievement of their stated goal, even if I don't agree with it, but for someone actively undermining their own cause out of misguided intentions, that doesn't exactly scream "respect". Edited December 3, 2019 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted December 3, 2019 Report Share Posted December 3, 2019 1 minute ago, Yzermandius19 said: Sure, but that has nothing with their ideology. When it comes to their ideology, if they are actively undermining their stated cause, that is not worthy of respect. Respect does not mean agreement. I can respect an adversary, even an enemy, if he not a coward and is prepared to go over the top for his cause, no matter how misguided. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted December 3, 2019 Report Share Posted December 3, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: Respect does not mean agreement. I can respect an adversary, even an enemy, if he not a coward and is prepared to go over the top for his cause, no matter how misguided. I respect the courage of his convictions, I do not respect his effectiveness at achieving his cause whatsoever. Being slightly more respectable than those without the courage of their convictions seems like a rather low bar to me. At least they aren't cowards, good for them, such high praise. Edited December 3, 2019 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted December 3, 2019 Report Share Posted December 3, 2019 Just now, Yzermandius19 said: I respect the courage of his convictions, I do not respect his effectiveness at achieving his cause whatsoever. To each his own, I aspire to be a man of honor and a Christian soldier, but I am no man's keeper, we all have our own view of things. Once they go over the top, all is forgiven, we are brothers then, though we may come to blows in the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted December 3, 2019 Report Share Posted December 3, 2019 (edited) If all their death accomplished was to undermine the very cause they were willing to die for, I don't think they'd be very happy about that outcome if they ever realized it. That's the kind of thing that could trap a man in a hell of his own making unable to forgive himself. God will forgive him, but will he forgive himself? Perhaps if they realized it wasn't a cause worth dying for, and that undermining the cause was actually a good thing, that would allow them to get past it eventually and forgive themselves, otherwise that might be a tough sell. Edited December 3, 2019 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted December 3, 2019 Report Share Posted December 3, 2019 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said: If all their death accomplished was to undermine the very cause they were willing to die for, I don't think they'd be very happy about that outcome if they ever realized it. That's the kind of thing that could trap a man in a hell of his own making unable to forgive himself. God will forgive him, but will he forgive himself? Perhaps if they realized it wasn't a cause worth dying for, and that undermining the cause was actually a good thing, that would allow them to get past it eventually and forgive themselves, otherwise that might be a tough sell. I do not tell men what to think, I only tell then what I think. I wouldn't kill nor die over the efficacy of one theory over another, I would at this juncture only go to war to stave off a tyranny. The Cold War wasn't about economics, it was simply a dispute over the Potsdam Agreement, with a thermonuclear standoff therein. Edited December 3, 2019 by Dougie93 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altai Posted December 3, 2019 Report Share Posted December 3, 2019 Yes everyone is fascist, bad, ugly, idiot, dictator, bully and any other bad adjectives and you are perfect. Discuss ends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrYouth Posted December 3, 2019 Report Share Posted December 3, 2019 12 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said: I remember being a jellyfish too, but I outgrew that shit, you can too. I have no idea what you are talking about with this jellyfish stuff... I'm simply not buying into your "Post National State Totalitarianism" hysteria... When you settle down and talk classical liberalism, I totally follow you... When you critique the lefty woke Kool-Aid... I totally follow you... When you LARP about with your bullshit conspiracy theories.... and talk of Crown land and Elites pulling all the strings.... I question it... Of course there are ELites... there are always Elites.... but vague conspiracy theories about Elites are always bullshit until proven otherwise. I'll take your George Soros and raise you a Koch Brother.... I don't go for the evil Elite theory of politics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted December 3, 2019 Report Share Posted December 3, 2019 We didn't name Canada the Post National State, Justin Trudeau called it that, he simply spoke the truth. It's clearly totalitarian, as anyone who does not comport with the leftist worldview in Canada is immediately declaimed for Wrong Think as a White Supremacist or what have you. There's no hysteria, this is what Canada has become, perhaps elite Doctors simply can't see it from the Ivory Towers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted December 3, 2019 Report Share Posted December 3, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, DrYouth said: I have no idea what you are talking about with this jellyfish stuff... I'm simply not buying into your "Post National State Totalitarianism" hysteria... When you settle down and talk classical liberalism, I totally follow you... When you critique the lefty woke Kool-Aid... I totally follow you... When you LARP about with your bullshit conspiracy theories.... and talk of Crown land and Elites pulling all the strings.... I question it... Of course there are ELites... there are always Elites.... but vague conspiracy theories about Elites are always bullshit until proven otherwise. I'll take your George Soros and raise you a Koch Brother.... I don't go for the evil Elite theory of politics. I'm talking about a conspiracy theory at all. You simply are unaware that Canada has no free speech, has no property rights, and has no right to bear arms to protect the first two. You want to cling to Canada being the greatest nation in the world, and will not listen to people pointing out it's obvious flaws. There is no conspiracy, Canada is simply not as free as America, and you refuse to believe it out of ignorance and misguided sense of nationalism for a Fugazi Nation. Confederation is holding you back by trying to keep out American freedom, and you simply want to believe that freedom from freedom is more freedom than actual freedom. Edited December 3, 2019 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrYouth Posted December 3, 2019 Report Share Posted December 3, 2019 3 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said: I'm talking about a conspiracy theory at all. You simply are unaware that Canada has no free speech, has no property rights, and has no right to bear arms to protect the first two. You want to cling to Canada being the greatest nation in the world, and will not listen to people pointing out it's obvious flaws. There is no conspiracy, Canada is simply not as free as America, and you refuse to believe it out of ignorance and misguided sense of nationalism for a Fugazi Nation. No free speech, No property rights - but no I'm not exaggerating at all... lol No right to bear arms... I'll grant you that... but many of us bear arms. Totally doable... simple skill testing questions... no different than a driver's licence. America is no freedom utopia... sorry to bust your bubble.... I'll stick to Canada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted December 3, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said: I'm talking about a conspiracy theory at all. You simply are unaware that Canada has no free speech, has no property rights, and has no right to bear arms to protect the first two. You want to cling to Canada being the greatest nation in the world, and will not listen to people pointing out it's obvious flaws. There is no conspiracy, Canada is simply not as free as America, and you refuse to believe it out of ignorance and misguided sense of nationalism for a Fugazi Nation. You have the freedom to carry guns around a lot. I don't see that you have much else that others don't. You think the US has property rights? US cities and states can take your property any time they feel the need. That includes giving it to property developers to build new homes or shopping malls. And in the other direction, a larger percentage of your population is in prison than in any other nation on earth, including China. In fact, your incarceration rate is three times China's and twice that of Russia. Edited December 3, 2019 by Argus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted December 3, 2019 Report Share Posted December 3, 2019 Just now, DrYouth said: No free speech, No property rights - but no I'm not exaggerating at all... lol No right to bear arms... I'll grant you that... but many of us bear arms. Totally doable... simple skill testing questions... no different than a driver's licence. America is no freedom utopia... sorry to bust your bubble.... I'll stick to Canada. America is more free than any other nation, sorry to burst your bubble. You can stick with Canada all you want, that doesn't change facts. When the Notwithstanding Clause exists, your right to free speech does not exist, as long as hate speech laws exist, your right to free speech does not exist. Having the right to say things that aren't offensive is not free speech, you wouldn't any free speech rights whatsoever if that was all free speech was about, because no one would ever call to censor you or fine you if you kept you limited your speech to those parameters, free speech privileges are not free speech rights. When you have no property rights constitutionally guaranteed, and the Crown literally owns all the land, that isn't real property rights, that is property privileges. The fact that you can't tell the difference between the two, and trust the government to administer your privileges in way that makes you feel free, does not make you free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannucklehead Posted December 3, 2019 Report Share Posted December 3, 2019 1 minute ago, Argus said: You have the freedom to carry guns around a lot. I don't see that you have much else that others don't. You think the US has property rights? US cities and states can take your property any time they feel the need. That includes giving it to property developers to build new homes or shopping malls. And in the other direction, a larger percentage of your population is in prison than in any other nation on earth, including China. In fact, your incarceration rate is three times China's and twice that of Russia. In america the right to bear arms and free speech are one in the same Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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