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I don't like Trudeau, but I have to admit...


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On 6/27/2019 at 9:26 PM, Michael Hardner said:

Believe me, I wish I wasn't such a professional.  You're welcome.

 

Trudeau or Scheer will lose.  Don't cry either way.

You people clearly do not get what is really happening here. There is a shadow government.

It's the lizard people, stupid.

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So what is the "Trudeau Doctrine", and can such a thing exist in a Canadian context.  Is it too dependent on continued partnership and leadership from the Americans ? 

So much has quickly changed...so what will Trudeau do now ?    The very same cliches about a fading middle power and honest broker have come back to haunt Trudeau, with no obvious solutions being offered.   Why should Trudeau get another crack at it in October given his performance and outcomes to date ?

 

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...Canada, unlike the United States or China or India, cannot go it alone. Nor would it want to – a retreat into economic or political nationalism or isolationism is not an idea in the Canadian mainstream.

But circumstances are forcing Canada to rely far more heavily on its own resources. The dramatic decline of economic globalization after 2008, and the trade punishments meted out by China and the United States in recent years, have shown us weaknesses in our domestic markets. The inability of Ottawa to handle more than two major international crises at a time has shown how thin and underresourced our government departments are. And Mr. Trump’s threats to NATO and other international military alliances, and our inability to maintain more than a token peacekeeping role, have shown that we need to devote more to defence (and end the inefficient practice of procuring ships and vehicles from domestic suppliers). We need to build up our cities and infrastructure, our universities and institutions, our population and knowledge centres, to make Canada a place that can lead rather than merely join.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-justin-trudeau-vs-the-world-how-the-next-government-can-reclaim/

 

Edited by bush_cheney2004
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3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men ?

2. Is it Shadow People or Lizards ?  Get it straight ! :D

Do you have any good ideas as to how to make Canada great again? Just asking, O wise one! :D

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3 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Trudeau comes up short at G20 meeting...."Sunny Ways" just doesn't  have that magical ring any more.

CBC News focuses more on Trump, Xi, and Kim....where is Trudeau ?    Does it even matter any more ?

I don't think there is much America can do for Canada on this anyways, Canada insists that Canada is a "rule of law country", thus the extradition treaty must me honored.

Trump is primarily focused on the domestic task of derailing the Democrat race hustling extremist agenda, I would bet that Pompeo is the one running Five Eyes.

But there is a limit to what even Pompeo can do, it's not like the Communists in Beijing are under America's control, America is simply doing what it can to defend the free world from them.

Edited by Dougie93
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7 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Trudeau comes up short at G20 meeting...."Sunny Ways" just doesn't  have that magical ring any more.

CBC News focuses more on Trump, Xi, and Kim....where is Trudeau ?    Does it even matter any more ?

I have to admit, I think something is wrong with his brain :lol:

d4201492.jpg.0fed3305f1ed4332d976b3f51d2068f8.jpg

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On 6/30/2019 at 1:41 PM, bush_cheney2004 said:

Trudeau comes up short at G20 meeting...."Sunny Ways" just doesn't  have that magical ring any more.

CBC News focuses more on Trump, Xi, and Kim....where is Trudeau ?    Does it even matter any more ?

Trump associates Trudeau’s brand of liberalism— feminist, multilateral, multicultural—with the Democrats. Trump prefers dictators to liberal metrosexual Millennial/Gen Xers like Trudeau.  More sophisticated centrist politicians like Merkel and Lagarde think Trump is ignorant and dangerous.  They deal with Trump because they have no choice.  Trump has power by virtue of his title and commands respect largely through fear, the dictator’s game.  

As long as the US plays the might is right game, the progressives of the developed world stand little chance.  Macron, Merkel and Trudeau are trying to work around Trump.  I respect Trump trying to take on China and keep the US out of wars, but his solutions create their own problems.  You can’t teach a dictator democracy by acting like a dictator.  

Trump also falls short of his bravado because he lacks moral credibility.  Trudeau’s success comes from his style and ability to persuade other countries that what is in Canada’s interests is in their interests. He is more persuasive on soft power than Trump because he doesn’t appear to be on the take.  No one is inspired by a zero-sum scenario where they end up on the losing end.  The Trump deal-making appears to be about squeezing everyone else.  Why would anyone choose a bad deal unless they’re bullied into it or have no other options?

Canadians are learning to be less reliant on the US, even if we think we’re all stronger together.  Canada could use more hard power and independence.  Trump could use more soft power and multilateralism.  In this way, traditionally, Canada and the US have helped each other: Canada as the honest broker, the US as the muscle.  That relationship is changing and it’s about time Canada became more independent.  Not sure Trudeau can lead in that direction.  

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1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

Trump associates Trudeau’s brand of liberalism— feminist, multilateral, multicultural—with the Democrats. Trump prefers dictators to liberal metrosexual Millennial/Gen Xers like Trudeau.  More sophisticated centrist politicians like Merkel and Lagarde think Trump is ignorant and dangerous.  They deal with Trump because they have no choice.  Trump has power by virtue of his title and commands respect largely through fear, the dictator’s game. 

 

No...there is more absent here with Justin Trudeau, regardless of Trump.    Other Canadian prime ministers garnered far more respect and influence through substantive leadership and relevance on the world stage....especially Trudeau's father, who reached out to communist (Red) China even before Nixon.

Donald Trump polls higher for job approval rating in respective countries than for Trudeau, Macron, Merkel, and the now departed (failed) May.

 

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As long as the US plays the might is right game, the progressives of the developed world stand little chance.  Macron, Merkel and Trudeau are trying to work around Trump.  I respect Trump trying to take on China and keep the US out of wars, but his solutions create their own problems.  You can’t teach a dictator democracy by acting like a dictator. 

 

The might is right policies existed long before Trump, and will continue long after.   Canada was/is complicit in such games with and without NATO and/or UN backing.

 

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Trump also falls short of his bravado because he lacks moral credibility.  Trudeau’s success comes from his style and ability to persuade other countries that what is in Canada’s interests is in their interests. He is more persuasive on soft power than Trump because he doesn’t appear to be on the take.  No one is inspired by a zero-sum scenario where they end up on the losing end.  The Trump deal-making appears to be about squeezing everyone else.  Why would anyone choose a bad deal unless they’re bullied into it or have no other options?

 

You have answered your own question...Canada has put itself in a position of having no other options....purposely so.   That's why your foreign minister prattles on about the United States being the single "indispensable nation" that must protect the post WW2 order with the most blood and treasure, even if it no longer wants to.   Canada is very inspiring that way, while spending far less on defence.   Trudeau (and you) claim that granting asylum to Syrian refugees should count equally, but it doesn't and never will.   Hell, tiny Jordan has far more refugees with no need to blow its horn about it.

 

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Canadians are learning to be less reliant on the US, even if we think we’re all stronger together.  Canada could use more hard power and independence.  Trump could use more soft power and multilateralism.  In this way, traditionally, Canada and the US have helped each other: Canada as the honest broker, the US as the muscle.  That relationship is changing and it’s about time Canada became more independent.  Not sure Trudeau can lead in that direction.  

 

Agreed, except that I am very sure that Trudeau can never lead in that direction.   More and more Canadians are doubting him as well going into a federal election.

Edited by bush_cheney2004
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20 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

No...there is more absent here with Justin Trudeau, regardless of Trump.    Other Canadian prime ministers garnered far more respect and influence through substantive leadership and relevance on the world stage....especially Trudeau's father, who reached out to communist (Red) China even before Nixon.

Donald Trump polls higher for job approval rating in respective countries than for Trudeau, Macron, Merkel, and the now departed (failed) May.

 

 

The might is right policies existed long before Trump, and will continue long after.   Canada was/is complicit in such games with and without NATO and/or UN backing.

 

 

You have answered your own question...Canada has put itself in a position of having no other options....purposely so.   That's why your foreign minister prattles on about the United States being the single "indispensable nation" that must protect the post WW2 order with the most blood and treasure, even if it no longer wants to.   Canada is very inspiring that way, while spending far less on defence.   Trudeau (and you) claim that granting asylum to Syrian refugees should count equally, but it doesn't and never will.   Hell, tiny Jordan has far more refugees with no need to blow its horn about it.

 

 

Agreed, except that I am very sure that Trudeau can never lead in that direction.   More and more Canadians are doubting him as well going into a federal election.

Trudeau relies heavily on his name, image, and progressive rhetoric, but in terms of concrete policy he hasn’t proven especially smart or creative.  It’s been increased spending, increased taxation, apologies to the offended, and running to allies for affirmation.  It’s all too soft.  We need a PM who will say China and Russia are totalitarian regimes and we don’t trust them, and who will call out Trump when he’s being a shit.  Trudeau should have said that he was right in his G20 remarks on Trump’s steel and aluminum tariffs instead of running scared.  He should also start blocking China until the two Canadians are released.  If China blocks our goods, offshoring can move to Indonesia or Africa.  China benefits more from us than the reverse. He should also push the Americans to settle the Meng extradition or threaten to pull out of the extradition treaty with the US. Canada is being used in Trump’s trade war.  Trudeau won’t do most of those things because his position is too fragile within his party.  He empowered too many leftist forces and can’t say no to special interests.  He’ll be lucky to get TransMountain through.  

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5 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Trudeau relies heavily on his name, image, and progressive rhetoric, but in terms of concrete policy he hasn’t proven especially smart or creative.  It’s been increased spending, increased taxation, apologies to the offended, and running to allies for affirmation.  It’s all too soft.  We need a PM who will say China and Russia are totalitarian regimes and we don’t trust them, and who will call out Trump when he’s being a shit.  Trudeau should have said that he was right in his G20 remarks on Trump’s steel and aluminum tariffs instead of running scared.

 

Trudeau has proven himself to be very weak regardless of Trump.   He ended up going to Washington D.C. to beg Trump for U.S. support on China.   This only served to amplify his real and perceived weakness.   Many nations in the world do not care about Trudeau's virtue signaling and feminist agenda, and now Trudeau is afraid to bark about such things in more powerful company....a hard lesson learned.    Back home, Trudeau is a domestic dumpster fire.

 

Quote

 He should also start blocking China until the two Canadians are released.  If China blocks our goods, offshoring can move to Indonesia or Africa.  China benefits more from us than the reverse. He should also push the Americans to settle the Meng extradition or threaten to pull out of the extradition treaty with the US. Canada is being used in Trump’s trade war.  Trudeau won’t do most of those things because his position is too fragile within his party.  He empowered too many leftist forces and can’t say no to special interests.  He’ll be lucky to get TransMountain through.  

 

Trudeau should but he won't.    "Sunny ways" delusion cannot make the real world go away, and if Canada's ruling government won't stand up for itself, nobody else will either.

The warrant for Meng came from a U.S. federal district court (Eastern New York) for bank fraud and Obama era sanction violations, not Trump.

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45 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Trudeau has proven himself to be very weak regardless of Trump.   He ended up going to Washington D.C. to beg Trump for U.S. support on China.   This only served to amplify his real and perceived weakness.   Many nations in the world do not care about Trudeau's virtue signaling and feminist agenda, and now Trudeau is afraid to bark about such things in more powerful company....a hard lesson learned.    Back home, Trudeau is a domestic dumpster fire.

 

 

Trudeau should but he won't.    "Sunny ways" delusion cannot make the real world go away, and if Canada's ruling government won't stand up for itself, nobody else will either.

The warrant for Meng came from a U.S. federal district court (Eastern New York) for bank fraud and Obama era sanction violations, not Trump.

I mostly agree except that so much depends on where you stand.  JT’s followers think he’s striking a healthy balance between business and environmental interests, trade interests vs. progressive policies, etc.   They’ll say he’s managing to maintain Canadian values and interests in an increasingly fascistic and less tolerant world.  I just see a naive kid who hasn’t learned to command authority.  I don’t agree with some of his policies, but in fairness, he, like Macron, Merkel and others, has been dealt a crap set of cards.  Russia has been emboldened, Trump is leading his country and some western nations into quasi fascism, and China is asserting its new power.  Canada is a relatively small player in all this, but I do think Canada is one of the best countries in which to live and work.  Trudeau can still lean on that like other PM’s. 

Edited by Zeitgeist
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22 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I mostly agree except that so much depends on where you stand.  JT’s followers think he’s striking a healthy balance between business and environmental interests, trade interests vs. progressive policies, etc.   They’ll say he’s managing to maintain Canadian values and interests in an increasingly fascistic and less tolerant world.  I just see a naive kid who hasn’t learned to command authority.  I don’t agree with some of his policies, but in fairness, he, like Macron, Merkel and others, has been dealt a crap set of cards.  Russia has been emboldened, Trump is leading his country and some western nations into quasi fascism, and China is asserting its new power.  Canada is a relatively small player in all this, but I do think Canada is one of the best countries in which to live and work.  Trudeau can still lean on that like other PM’s. 

 

Naive Trudeau wanted the job, so he gets no sympathy.   His father faced much more difficult domestic and international circumstances, but he did not shrink away from the challenges....PET was many things, but he was not weak.

Trump is leading his country, can Trudeau lead his ?    Trump does not depend on Canada to show the way for U.S. domestic or foreign policy.

Basically what you are saying is that Trudeau and his like minded ilk were/are not prepared to face today's geopolitical and trade challenges without Trump providing the usual American cover and support.   This reveals a gap for them, not Trump.

Justin Trudeau would still be a weak under-performer even if Trump had never been elected, and dog whistle codewords like "best countries" will not save him.

Edited by bush_cheney2004
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11 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Naive Trudeau wanted the job, so he gets no sympathy.   His father faced much more difficult domestic and international circumstances, but he did not shrink away from the challenges....PET was many things, but he was not weak.

Trump is leading his country, can Trudeau lead his ?    Trump does not depend on Canada to show the way for U.S. domestic or foreign policy.

Basically what you are saying is that Trudeau and his like minded ilk were/are not prepared to face today's geopolitical and trade challenges without Trump providing the usual American cover and support.   This reveals a gap for them, not Trump.

Justin Trudeau would still be a weak under-performer even if Trump had never been elected.

That’s  why he’ll probably get pummeled in the election.  Harper was stronger.  Chrétien wasn’t bad.  There was so much hope for Martin and he basically blew his opportunity to lead.  I don’t see any standouts right now.  Scheer is okay.  Bernier has a long way to go to prove himself. The Greens and NDP just remind me of my pothead friends and I in university.  Out to lunch. 

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7 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

That’s  why he’ll probably get pummeled in the election.  Harper was stronger.  Chrétien wasn’t bad.  There was so much hope for Martin and he basically blew his opportunity to lead.  I don’t see any standouts right now.  Scheer is okay.  Bernier has a long way to go to prove himself. The Greens and NDP just remind me of my pothead friends and I in university.  Out to lunch. 

 

Well, step #1 would be to turf Trudeau in October....change would follow.  It is not hard to find rabid Canadians who want Trump (in a foreign country) gone in January 2021, but for some reason they do not have the same zeal to solve a problem closer to home. 

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5 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Naive Trudeau wanted the job, so he gets no sympathy.   His father faced much more difficult domestic and international circumstances, but he did not shrink away from the challenges....PET was many things, but he was not weak.

Trump is leading his country, can Trudeau lead his ?    Trump does not depend on Canada to show the way for U.S. domestic or foreign policy.

Basically what you are saying is that Trudeau and his like minded ilk were/are not prepared to face today's geopolitical and trade challenges without Trump providing the usual American cover and support.   This reveals a gap for them, not Trump.

Justin Trudeau would still be a weak under-performer even if Trump had never been elected, and dog whistle codewords like "best countries" will not save him.

Tell me I am wrong most canadians feeling JT is fine when obama is President 

To be fair, most of the JT's problems are created by Trump's foreign policy. I am not saying JT is a competent politician, just that he would be fine if Sanders or Hillary had been elected. 

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19 minutes ago, egghead said:

Tell me I am wrong most canadians feeling JT is fine when obama is President 

To be fair, most of the JT's problems are created by Trump's foreign policy. I am not saying JT is a competent politician, just that he would be fine if Sanders or Hillary had been elected. 

Trudeau Lite's problems stem from a lack of experience in anything that relates blue collar citizens . . . . he just does not 'get it'.

A strong leader wouldn't be begging someone else to do his negotiations for him.  How embarrassing for this country.

Vote this cuck out on October 21st . . . . time to flush the toilet on this mistake.

Edited by Nefarious Banana
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1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

So ... Scheer who was an insurance man before coming to Parliament at 25 is better??

At least Trudeau worked in a bar...

I know what you mean. JT does have more style and cool factor, but he sometimes acts more like a big city mayor than a PM and takes up peripheral causes.  He’s more interested in using public resources for his affirmative action work to score points politically with the left end of his base than building the country up by addressing productivity and infrastructure gaps, things that actually raise living standards and benefit everyone. 

Edited by Zeitgeist
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18 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

  He’s more interested in using public resources for his affirmative action work to score points politically with the left end of his base than building the country up by addressing productivity and infrastructure gaps, things that actually raise living standards and benefit everyone. 

I think he's unqualified but your assessment is not right.  He is interested in solving these problems but not equipped.

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8 hours ago, egghead said:

Tell me I am wrong most canadians feeling JT is fine when obama is President 

To be fair, most of the JT's problems are created by Trump's foreign policy. I am not saying JT is a competent politician, just that he would be fine if Sanders or Hillary had been elected. 

 

OK, but it still does not speak well for Trudeau, as an American president would have little to do with his domestic failings.   And remember, it was Obama who canceled Keystone XL.

Trump did not make Trudeau act a fool in India, or inflame relations with the Saudis.  

I know it is a fine line to balance, but any Canadian PM (and ministers) who whines about the American president's policies is not prepared to lead like many PMs of the past.   Trump is not responsible for Canada...that is Trudeau's job.   "But For Trump" is not a winning campaign slogan.

 

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29 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

OK, but it still does not speak well for Trudeau, as an American president would have little to do with his domestic failings.   And remember, it was Obama who canceled Keystone XL.

Trump did not make Trudeau act a fool in India, or inflame relations with the Saudis.  

I know it is a fine line to balance, but any Canadian PM (and ministers) who whines about the American president's policies is not prepared to lead like many PMs of the past.   Trump is not responsible for Canada...that is Trudeau's job.   "But For Trump" is not a winning campaign slogan.

 

Yes, but Trump is an unusual president.  JT and Freeland were right to call out the Saudis just as Harper was right to call out Russia on Crimean annexation and East Ukrainian military interference.  The difference with Trump is that he didn’t back up the PM.  Trump seems to give tacit approval to guys like Putin and bin Salman the Saudi Prince.  Somewhere along the line Trump has been compromised by foreign players, likely Russian oligarch funding through Deutsche Bank.  Trump’s derision of NATO and the WTO make it difficult to work productively with allies for better international rules and safeguards against Russian or Chinese expansionism.  Certain Republicans will say it’s all a ploy to wring more funding from NATO partners, but I consider it irresponsible and making room for China and Russia to fill the gaps where America once led.  JT has had to deal with that recklessness from our neighbors, and I’m not sure a Conservative PM would have had it much easier, though JT’s fluffy sunny rhetoric didn’t help.  

Edited by Zeitgeist
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21 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Yes, but Trump is an unusual president.  JT and Freeland were right to call out the Saudis just as Harper was right to call out Russia on Crimean annexation and East Ukrainian military interference.  The difference with Trump is that he didn’t back up the PM.  Trump seems to give tacit approval to guys like Putin and bin Salman the Saudi Prince.  Somewhere along the line Trump has been compromised by foreign players, likely Russian oligarch funding through Deutsche Bank. 

 

Can't take this seriously when JT and his virtue signaling ministers refused to stop exporting APC's to the Saudis in order to protect jobs in London, Ontario.   Plus the SNC-Lavalin fiasco.   

Trump is not any more unusual than Bush, Reagan, Nixon, Eisenhower, Kennedy, etc. when it comes to foreign policy and putting the squeeze on so called allies.  And yes, American (not Canadian) interests sometimes require partnering with Russia and China.  

Even if what you claim is true (please provide evidence), it still speaks volumes about the weakness of Canada's PMO in general, and Trudeau specifically.   Why should Trump back up Trudeau, who espouses globalist policies and an agenda that does not support Trump ?

 

Quote

Trump’s derision of NATO and the WTO make it difficult to work productively with allies for better international rules and safeguards against Russian or Chinese expansionism.  Certain Republicans will say it’s all a ploy to wring more funding from NATO partners, but I consider it irresponsible and making room for China and Russia to fill the gaps where America once led.  JT has had to deal with that recklessness from our neighbors, and I’m not sure a Conservative PM would have had it much easier, though JT’s fluffy sunny rhetoric didn’t help.  

 

Too bad...Trump is absolutely correct that the U.S. is now far less tolerant of the relative free ride that such allies have taken, especially Canada.   Obama scolded the same NATO "allies", just like Trump.    Obviously Canada is/was not prepared to weather the Trump storm, despite early warning signs that it would not be business as usual, and the biggest vulnerability such an over dependence on the United States to begin with.

The U.S. does not exist to fill "gaps" that NATO deadbeats like Canada refuse to fill.

If Canada doesn't learn from this experience, than it will happen again, regardless of Trudeau.

Edited by bush_cheney2004
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