Mark Norman Case.

[Dougie93]

The most important thing that Norman was saving here was not even the AOR itself, it was the delivery model.

The Federal Fleet contract to provide AOR as a service rather than platform.  The American and British model.

The AOR's which should be cancelled are the Berlin Class from Seaspan.

The RCN should be getting Chantier-Davie to convert all four of those MV Asterix ships.

The problem is simply the need to pork barrel in British Columbia rather than provide the best solution.

 

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Dougie93 said:

The most important thing that Norman was saving here was not even the AOR itself, it was the delivery model.

The Federal Fleet contract to provide AOR as a service rather than platform.  The American and British model.

 

Agreed...this entire episode is just another indictment of the defence procurement process itself, regardless of Adm. Norman.

Canada is rapidly losing the domestic ability to design and build warships and combat supply ships.

Pick the most decrepit Canadian Forces service...all are being starved to death.

[Dougie93]

9 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Agreed...this entire episode is just another indictment of the defence procurement process itself, regardless of Adm. Norman.

Canada is rapidly losing the domestic ability to design and build warships and combat supply ships.

Pick the most decrepit Canadian Forces service...all are being starved to death.

What they should do, since Seaspan is already working with TKMS, is change the contract in BC from AORs  to a TKMS Multi-role Helicopter Dock.

The Big Honking Ship that Ricky Hillier wanted.

Then have Davie do 4 AOR conversions to make it a Royal (Canadian) Fleet Auxiliary

Problem being that neither the Cons nor the Libs will end up following through on the NSPS, most of it is going to get cancelled when the actual costs are revealed.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Dougie93 said:

Problem being that neither the Cons nor the Libs will end up following through on the NSPS, most of it is going to get cancelled when the actual costs are revealed.

 

Right....nearly every time...Lucy will yank the football.   This is especially true when there is a change in government.

Cheaper to just pay the cancellation fees....again.

[Dougie93]

6 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Right....nearly every time...Lucy will yank the football.   This is especially true when there is a change in government.

Cheaper to just pay the cancellation fees....again.

When I was young and naive I thought the military could be saved.  

Now that I am older and wiser, I realize that it shouldn't be saved, just take it out behind the woodshed and put it out of its misery.

Canada is a Giant Iceland, the Boutique Military is a Potemkin Village facade, just like Canada itself.

[Rue]

23 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

Respect to you as well,  to be clear tho,  mutiny doesn't have to be a crime, just to buck your commander is mutinous, even they didn't come after you with the QR&O's, there are many other ways for your commander to come after you.

And it's Vance,  I've had him after me when he was Major Vance, and he is ruthless and rattlesnake mean and he never forgets a slight.

Vance could have stopped this whole thing before it got started, but like I say, I think Norman bucked him, Vance took it as mutinous, and that's why he through Norman under the bus.

Thanks now I got yah. That I get.

[Rue]

17 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Agreed...this entire episode is just another indictment of the defence procurement process itself, regardless of Adm. Norman.

Canada is rapidly losing the domestic ability to design and build warships and combat supply ships.

Pick the most decrepit Canadian Forces service...all are being starved to death.

Ok so I will tell you bluntly, it gives you the  right to complain we aint carrying our part of NATO or North American sea defense as we should with NATO allies or the US. Agreed. Inexcusable. However Trump is still a rude idiot Russian blackmailed pasty. His wife is clearly from Putin's fleet of escorts.  I met her once in Moscow. She went by the name of Nastasha in those days, She had a thing for squirrels. She reminds me of Kaitlyn Jenner.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, Rue said:

Ok so I will tell you bluntly, it gives you the  right to complain we aint carrying our part of NATO or North American sea defense as we should with NATO allies or the US. Agreed. Inexcusable. However Trump is still a rude idiot Russian blackmailed pasty. His wife is clearly from Putin's fleet of escorts.  I met her once in Moscow. She went by the name of Nastasha in those days, She had a thing for squirrels. She reminds me of Kaitlyn Jenner.

 

Attacking Trump does nothing to address the issue of Canada as a NATO/NORAD deadbeat.    Insulting his wife is even more irrelevant.

When Obama chastised Canada over defence spending, did you insult his wife too ?

The most pathetic thing about this whole affair is that it was over a single supply ship...one...single...hull...not a large program for a new class of many vessels.   Canada's corrupt politicians will fight over even those meager scraps.

 

Edited May 11, 2019 by bush_cheney2004

[Dougie93]

9 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Attacking Trump does nothing to address the issue of Canada as a NATO/NORAD deadbeat.    Insulting his wife is even more irrelevant.

When Obama chastised Canada over defence spending, did you insult his wife too ?

The most pathetic thing about this whole affair is that it was over a single supply ship...one...single...hull...not a large program for a new class of many vessels.   Canada's corrupt politicians will fight over even those meager scraps.

 

Once again, it all comes back to the Fake Country.

A colony of the British Empire which failed to launch on its own, and as a result became a protectorate of the United States.

It's not that the politicians are corrupt, the issue is that Canada is a failed state.

[Dougie93]

When I served in the Cold War, I thought of it as fighting for the Leaders of the Free World, it's not like we were really reporting to the Canadian PM, our boss was SACEUR.

The Canadian military simply gave us the opportunity to serve alongside the Americans, it's not like we paid any attention to the dingbat Canadian public.

At least I could carry my own water, for the American Corps, cause I knew Canada would never do it.

I had no pride in Canada, Canada was a joke, it was shameful, but we could do our own part, as individuals, in the American Foreign Legion.

That was the best part about NATO,  it elevated us, we didn't have to be associated with the Canadian shirkers.

Edited May 12, 2019 by Dougie93

[OftenWrong]

On 5/8/2019 at 5:25 PM, WestCanMan said:

And that’s what the Trudeau regime’s prosecution of Vice-Admiral Mark Norman would have exposed: Senior Trudeau government officials, implicated in a scheme to use the criminal justice system to punish an alleged whistleblower. In this case, the second-highest-ranking officer in the Canadian Forces.

They tried to screw over an honourable man, how shocking and sad. Time for Justin Trudeau's Liberal House of Wax to go up in flames.

[Dougie93]

Doesn't matter if you throw Trudeau out.   The academics, unions, media and bureaucrats run the show, even when the Liberals are out of office, the Liberals are still running things.

[Dougie93]

It's like when Pierre Trudeau got tossed in 84', then Mulroney comes in and promises all this stuff for the military "500 tanks! Nuclear submarines! Blah, blah, blah!"

We didn't get a single thing, it was all bullshit, ten years later we were still using the kit from the 1960's, then the Liberals were back to get rid of even that.

It's disarmament by stealth, all party multigenerational project.

[Dougie93]

All the politicians respond to is the bloated public sector unionized parasite bureaucracy

The military never gets anything, because the military can't go on strike.

PSAC by the way, is about to go on strike again.

So long as Canadians keep voting in favour of these sick, lame and lazy public sector unions and their bullshit sob stories, there's nothing left over for anything else.

Edited May 12, 2019 by Dougie93

[Rue]

21 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Attacking Trump does nothing to address the issue of Canada as a NATO/NORAD deadbeat.    Insulting his wife is even more irrelevant.

When Obama chastised Canada over defence spending, did you insult his wife too ?

The most pathetic thing about this whole affair is that it was over a single supply ship...one...single...hull...not a large program for a new class of many vessels.   Canada's corrupt politicians will fight over even those meager scraps.

 

I was being satirical in response to your original response defending Trump by calling Canada a dead beat. So of course I agree defending or attacking Trump does nothing to address the issue of Canada having an underfunded military. That was the point.

So come on BC lighten up or apply the same standard. Actually BC in all seriousness  surely we all agree attacking the family of a politician is unacceptable when journalists do it. If I have done it, its done tongue in cheek never seriously because I of course agree. Its b.s. when the press goes after family and even political cartoonists have to be careful..I agree with you. .and seriously, to be married to an ignoranr rude bully likeTrump and handle all his crap and ego , I think  would be a nightmare so I think his wife has handled herself with a quiet dignity. Then again

Last comment I totally agree with.

That said I am with Often Wrong on this one in feeling that Norman was trying to do the honourable thing and was screwed over. The rest of the comments from Dougie I defer to as he has an insider view which I respect but I can't comment on.

As for you and me we disagree over Trump of course, but don't mistake my tongue in cheek. In fact  one of the reasons I do  not like Trump is his lack of respect for others including military. I did not appreciate the excuses and crap he pulled in Europe during war memorials and his comments over John McCain went way over the line especially since he himself has never served and used his rich boy status to avoid service.

That said what ails our military will continue. Its a similar problem to what Toronto faces with its subway. There has been so many years of doing nothing that to get it up and running has to be costly and politicians afraid to increase taxes or are misspending tax revenues don't have the will to properly manage military procurement which is inextricably linked to political interests.

 

 

[bush_cheney2004]

12 minutes ago, Rue said:

...As for you and me we disagree over Trump of course, but don't mistake my tongue in cheek. In fact  one of the reasons I do  not like Trump is his lack of respect for others including military. I did not appreciate the excuses and crap he pulled in Europe during war memorials and his comments over John McCain went way over the line especially since he himself has never served and used his rich boy status to avoid service.

 

Trump is serving now as POTUS and CinC....as a "rich boy" who doesn't need a president's salary.

Either way, it has nothing to do with Canada being a NATO deadbeat.    What amazes me is how any minor or insignificant issue involving spending can totally derail the leadership and action in Canada...all the way down to a $16 glass of orange juice.

Norman didn't do anything that wasn't already part of a longstanding, defence procurement circle jerk that Canada is now famous for.   Ships, "jets", rotary wing, whatever...it doesn't matter, because they all get sucked into the same incompetent black hole.

Trump will be gone in 2 or 4 more years...but Canada's military capabilities and readiness will remain in this same sorry state for a very long time.

Edited May 12, 2019 by bush_cheney2004

[Army Guy]

On 5/10/2019 at 1:15 PM, Argus said:

Three of them have come out publicly on his side; Kenney, O'Toole and Mackay. I don't see that he brings a lot of baggage to them.

I'm not 100% sure Argus what is going to happen, but Norman has been pulled from the rotation ie career advancement for more than a year, He has already been replaced and some people have moved past him, IE the guy that is in his seat now, and the ripple effect it has all the way down the line, as they were pushed forward.......it would be a lot easier if he had been a lower rank IE more of them, and they could slide one guy to the corner....but not at vice CDS...only one of them, and they won't punish the guy out  who is in the seat now...So the question is what NOW, well perhaps a command chair in NATO HQ, normally held for CDS that are not retiring, or NORAD HQ something like that..

As for baggage although we do not see any, the liberals sure do, and believe it or not some of them are in the military , could and would  hold it against him. Keep in mind at that level of rank it is more about politics than military...Not to mention the fact if he does get his job back "vice CDS" , he would be replacing someone that is in the seat now, and could bring some friction at that level along with all the way down the line, remember a lot of people moved up one rung of the ladder, push that all back and a lot of people are going to be pissed.......I mean it was not his fault Justin was an asshole right.  

Only possibility is promoting him to CDS, as it is the Navy's turn, traditionally but that is not a hard precedent, it's been changed in the past...

[Army Guy]

On 5/10/2019 at 1:37 PM, WestCanMan said:

Beer lol. I was in the navy back in the late '80s.

I drank less than 6 beers in 3 years at sea, and I drank a lot back then. When we were at sea we were doing a 1 in 3 watch system so we did 8 hrs a day Mon - Sat, noon-4 on Sunday, plus 8 hrs a day on watch, plus seamanship evolutions like refuelling at sea, tow ex, etc (always after hrs), plus training drills like man overboard,  action stations, (always after hrs). 

Technically you could have a beer if you were 8 hrs away from being on watch or at work but that could never be the case.

Here's a nice workday for you. Go on watch from 4am to 8am, have breakfast, work from 8 til 4pm, do the 1st dog watch from 4-6 (you're at 14 hrs straight now), have dinner , cleaning stations at 8 pm, stand by for inspection at 9 which takes up to half an hour, get to bed at 10 pm, go on watch from midnight to 4am (21.5 of the last 24 hrs working, then you get 3 hrs of sleep) lights come on at 7am and then you're back to work til 4 pm, on watch from 8 til midnight. Then you get "all nighters", sleep from midnight to 7. It's the only bright spot of the 3-day cycle. It's like the weekend to a civilian. Back to work from 8-4:30. Try that when you're seasick.

We did as many as 22 straight days at sea, and that was on a trip to Alaska. Just doing circles and working 14-22 hrs a day for 22 days with only intermittent sleep.

On mid-cycle workups we literally went 22-23 hrs/day for two weeks, but we got part of the weekend off in the middle.

According to QROs it's illegal not to get 4 hrs of uninterrupted sleep but that doesn't apply at all in the Navy. Never Again Volunteer Yourself.

I know it wasn't any better being a grunt (Government Reject Unfit for Naval Training), but those of us in the junior ranks of the hard sea trades weren't chugging brewskies on the Qu'Appelle. 

 

Come on WestCanMan , you saying the entire fleet was that way, with the beer in modified pop machines in each mess deck, although I was not navy, I was on a ship for a short time, while we practiced beach landings putting Recce teams ashore in RIBs, trust me after 4 days sail from Halifax to NFLD I was one happy grunt to get off that tug boat or what every you called it, and I did mange to swallow a few beer out of those machines, and I can remember more than a few navy guys partaking in way to many as well...At that time I think it was 25 cents for a beer after so many klicks off shore....because you did not have to pay any of the taxes on it.. 

And while your day sounds hard to the average civy, it would be a day in the park to most Infantry men , where no sleep is routine, sometimes more than 5 to7 days in a row, now I know this sounds like a dick measuring contest....it's not, this was normal routine while out in the field.... now after 7 days your body starts to shut down, you start hallucinating like a bad acid trip, I once had a long conversation with my ruck sack , who I thought was my wife at the time, about buying a new truck, my fire team partner thought it was funney at the time, but later  he tried to convince me we were about to get stampeded by cows one night, except we were in the high artic, no cows for thousands of miles ................. , after 7 days even ranger rick sandwichs were not enough  " 2 slices of buttered bread, with 3 or 4 packs of instant coffee in between them" ya it tastes as good as it sounds, but it kept you up, and if that did not work there was a pocket full of coffee beans i'd be so jacked up my hands would shake, my heart would be just pounding...Then the army came out with Caffeine gum, it was like legal crack, but you could never get enough of it...that was concentrated caffeine at it's finest, but once it wore off you felt like shit.... 

 I guess the army didn't get that copy of the QR&O,about 4 hours a night.... What we lost in the field we gained in Garrison, PT in the morning, back to work by 10 , coffee break to 10,30, then veh maint, until 11.30, lunch, back at 1, veh maint until 2 pm, more  PT until 3.30 then home...Fridays we normally got off at noon...

We never beat any navy guys up, can't say I was not jealous of 3 meals a day and a warm bed....

Edited May 13, 2019 by Army Guy
x

[Army Guy]

On 5/9/2019 at 11:45 PM, Dougie93 said:

Never.  I joined to get away from all that, I joined to be a soldier's soldier,  I loved the field, whether that be Hohenfels or Petawawa, I embraced the suck, and then learned to love it.

If it ain't rainin', we ain't trainin', only the weak wear rain jackets, although Danner boots are  the cats ass.

Don't get me wrong I loved most minutes I was in the Infantry, some days were better than others, but their was times when I did question myself WTF am I doing, when it would rain for weeks at a time and you had long ago run out of dry clothing, so wet your skin would wrinkle up all the time, your wet, tired, and cold, mind numbing cold, shivering all the time....ya those days I don't miss...although I would rather have a thousand of those days , then escort back to Canada a very good friends flag draped coffin, to his wife who I had promised to look after him, keep him safe.

Those rain jackets were not rain jackets there was nothing rain proof about them, 5 mins in the rain and you were soaked anyways....we buy the US ones in Hohenfels, coated with a rubber compound your were dry if you did not move then your sweat would drench you from the inside....I remember a time we would buy most of out field kit from the kit shop....because what we were issued was shit.

The Kit has only gotten better today, good gortex rain wear, nice boots, with exception of the mukluks, artic mits, sleeping bad, everything else has changed for the better, 

Edited May 13, 2019 by Army Guy

[Dougie93]

3 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Don't get me wrong I loved most minutes I was in the Infantry, some days were better than others, but their was times when I did question myself WTF am I doing, when it would rain for weeks at a time and you had long ago run out of dry clothing, so wet your skin would wrinkle up all the time, your wet, tired, and cold, mind numbing cold, shivering all the time....ya those days I don't miss...although I would rather have a thousand of those days , then escort back to Canada a very good friends flag draped coffin, to his wife who I had promised to look after him, keep him safe.

Those rain jackets were not rain jackets there was nothing rain proof about them, 5 mins in the rain and you were soaked anyways....we buy the US ones in Hohenfels, coated with a rubber compound your were dry if you did not move then your sweat would drench you from the inside....

The lit has only gotten better today, good gortex

Well don't get me wrong,  I did by some kit, we went to the UK,  to Survival Aids and Special Air Sea Services I bought Danner Acadia's, I bought an NZ SAS gore-tex bivvy bag, and SASS made Kit Karry All smocks custom, so we had them make them in Canadian pattern green with Canadian buttons so nobody could tell it wasn't Canadian, and then I just wore that instead of rain jacket.

[Dougie93]

It's too hot working in a rain jacket anyways, you just get soaked with sweat, even gore-tex doesn't breath enough, so I preferred the British smock.

[Dougie93]

35 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

. now after 7 days your body starts to shut down, you start hallucinating like a bad acid trip, I once had a long conversation with my ruck sack , who I thought was my wife at the time, about buying a new truck, my fire team partner thought it was funney at the time, but later  he tried to convince me we were about to get stampeded by cows one night, except we were in the high artic, no cows for thousands of miles ................

Yeah, after about a week without sleep is the only timed I've ever hallucinated,  I was talking to my buddy while he was lacing up his boots, couldn't understand why he was ignoring me. turned out to be a bush, I thought I saw a horse going up and down in front of the position, I thought there was a bridge over a creek but it wasn't there  and I walked off the edge into the water, shit like that.

The weirdest one was I saw my father walking through the lines and I was calling to him saying "what the heck are you doing here?" and then it dissipated like a ghost.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Dougie93

[Nefarious Banana]

New vessels needed to maintain/uphold our claim to the polar north ?

Have a gut-wrenching feeling that Canada has 'slipped away' too much to regain any kind of respect as a nation.

At my age, I may have seen the best that Canada could be . . . 

Not impressed any more.

[Dougie93]

4 minutes ago, Nefarious Banana said:

New vessels needed to maintain/uphold our claim to the polar north ?

Have a gut-wrenching feeling that Canada has 'slipped away' too much to regain any kind of respect as a nation.

At my age, I may have seen the best that Canada could be . . . 

Not impressed any more.

The country which is challenging Canada's claim to the Northwest Passage; is the Americans.

You're not shooting at them, so buying a vessel to do it is silly.

[Dougie93]

All Canada needs in the North is the Coast Guard.   There's no requirement for the RCN up there at all.

The AOPS is another useless Canadian procurement boondoggle, TAPV of the sea.