$400 for every man woman and child in Alberta

[kimmy]

Fort McMurray is such a big part of our future that investing in it only makes sense. I think that if guys were a 2 hour train ride instead of 6 hour drive from the city, going to work up there would seem like a much less wretched choice.

Hey, Kimmy, if it's such a good idea, why not build the KimmyExpress? (On the inaugural run, you can do as Lady Agnes and admire the view from the cowcatcher.)

My point is that hare-brained schemes are easy to justify when you are spending "other people's money".

I gather you feel that if a high-speed rail link between Edmonton and Fort McMisery were such a good idea, some entrepreneur would have already undertaken this as a means of making money. Since no entrepreneur seems willing to sink the billions into that enterprise, it is most likely not a great moneymaker, and therefore most likely not an optimal use of the capital the Govt of Alberta has lucked upon. And that a government behaving in a businesslike manner would be unwise to do something that private enterprise wouldn't undertake itself?

I suppose the simple reply is, if giving away money were such a smart use of capital, then why aren't private enterprises running around giving away money?

-k

[Montgomery Burns]

August1991:

That's silly. You make it sound as if the government should phone you up to remind you to take out the garbage.

Burns, like the Left, you are confusing symbols for reality. Does your car insurance premium remind you that car repairs are not free? No, the knowledge that your premiums will go up if you have an accident does that.

Are you trying to win the Dumbest Analogy of the Day™ Award? I'm disappointed in you, August1991

The only health premium that would make sense in my mind is one that varied according to people's behaviour. The last time I checked, smokers in Ontario now pay all the health costs (and then some) associated with their habit. That's the kind of health insurance premium people should pay.

A nice EUtopian vision but unfortunately reality is not that easy to attain. How do you vary health behaviour to the entire populace?

And a Red Light is perceived to mean Stop, and Green Light is perceived to mean Go. If drivers ignore colours, is that abuse?

August, what color is that Kool-Aid you have been drinking? Enquiring minds want to know....

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear kimmy,

I suppose the simple reply is, if giving away money were such a smart use of capital, then why aren't private enterprises running around giving away money?

My guess would be you are correct, and it is the reason most here, left and right, feel that sending cheques out is not the best use of the money. Welcome, but not wise.

A huge gov't expenditure to facilitate an industry is nothing more than subsidy. The development of the oil sands were not even a consideration until the price of oil was such that it made the project(s) feasible (read: Profitable).

[fellowtraveller]

The $400 is simply a return for over-taxation by the provincial government.

No, it's a result of extra revenue from oil and gas.

If Alberta (has so many like to remind us all) has the lowest taxes in Canada, how can we be overtaxed?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The extra revenue is from royalties, a tax on corporataions. Extra royalties should result in lower taxes for individuals and lookee here - they have all dropped by $400 in 2005! The province does not need the revenue, so it is appropriate that they return it to individuals that are paying more than is required to fund govt operations.

Is pretty simple really, has a century of Liberal rule totally confounded your ability to relate revenue with program spending?

[catch-as-catch-can]

The only health premium that would make sense in my mind is one that varied according to people's behaviour.  The last time I checked, smokers in Ontario now pay all the health costs (and then some) associated with their habit.  That's the kind of health insurance premium people should pay.

You mean like putting a sin tax on Twinkies and such?

The border guards will then be asking ... "any alcohol, cigarettes, Twinkies?

[Guest eureka]

I really have to ask myself what kind os "nation" Canada is turning into. This money is coming out of the pockets of every Canadian outside of Alberta. The high dollar added to high fuel costs is causing unemployment and the weakening of manufacturing across Canada. All Canadians are suffering andwe see only how can Alberta and Albertans benefit most from the loss to every other Canadian.

If there is great profit to Alberta, then it should be spread to alleviate the loss to Canada. I don't think I have ever seen such sefishness and beggar my neighbour sentiments.

It may result in equal unconcern for Alberta when the inevitable happens and the oil bonanza fizzles.

l

[Cartman]

I really have to ask myself what kind os "nation" Canada is turning into. This money is coming out of the pockets of every Canadian outside of Alberta. The high dollar added to high fuel costs is causing unemployment and the weakening of manufacturing across Canada. All Canadians are suffering andwe see only how can Alberta and Albertans benefit most from the loss to every other Canadian.

If there is great profit to Alberta, then it should be spread to alleviate the loss to Canada. I don't think I have ever seen such sefishness and beggar my neighbour sentiments.

It may result in equal unconcern for Alberta when the inevitable happens and the oil bonanza fizzles.

Agreed. It's not like us Albertans put the oil there or anything. August brought this up a long time ago and I thought it was an interesting question (I think it was something like "what entitles Albertans to the oil up north"). If memory serves, the responses were not as strong as the original query.

[Canuck E Stan]

In the question of entitlement, what entitles things like Quebec using natural resources for electrical energy and the ROC not getting a break on electricity,or why the Feds aren't getting a tax grab from these resources. Or that Labrador got shafted in this deal and should be getting a better return on the water they supply for this electricity.Where is the entitlement for the ROC?

How about the manufacturing sector in Ontario,the auto companies last year got $500 million of Fed/provincial monies to keep the auto companies from leaving. Even after the last negotiations with the CAW, Chysler said they expected to get new $$ from the Feds.Wages in the big three are around $35 an hour for production work.Why don't these workers save their own jobs?Why does the government have to bail them out all the time? Where is the entitlement there for the ROC?

The grass is always greener on the other side and people must realize that what makes it green is more than hard work.

[Minimus Maximus]

I really have to ask myself what kind os "nation" Canada is turning into. This money is coming out of the pockets of every Canadian outside of Alberta. The high dollar added to high fuel costs is causing unemployment and the weakening of manufacturing across Canada. All Canadians are suffering andwe see only how can Alberta and Albertans benefit most from the loss to every other Canadian.

If there is great profit to Alberta, then it should be spread to alleviate the loss to Canada. I don't think I have ever seen such sefishness and beggar my neighbour sentiments.

It may result in equal unconcern for Alberta when the inevitable happens and the oil bonanza fizzles.

l

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just a couple of points I would like to raise here Eureka. First, myself and many of my fellow Albertan's would like some of the surplus's our economy is amassing shared with the "have not' provinces. Read some of the letters to the ed. from the Calgary and Edmonton Suns from the last few weeks.

There is still infrastructure deficits to correct. This came about when Alberta tightened its collective belt in order to balance the budget and pay down debt, otherwise we would still be running a deficit and would still have debt.

Also, your implicaton that Albertan's are not affected by the same high energy costs as other Canadian's is untrue and inflammatory. We also have a manufacturing sector and a transportation sector that suffer every time the price of energy is increased. These costs are then spread to the public in the form of increased costs...and so on.

Some Albertan's are making out like bandits right now, but there are still many that are seeing their cost of living increase while their wages remain relatively unchanged from where they have been for the last few years. There are many here that suffer the same consequence as all Canadians.

Eureka, don't mistake corporate greed for Albertan greed. We hear about this money on the news, we read about it in the newspapersbut only a few will every place their sweaty dirt stained hands on any of it. To say that Canadians outside of Alberta are not sharing in this good fortune is also a fallacy. The feds are ammasing quite a surplus of their own based on the increase in gasoline prices, and natural gas prices.

Unemployment is extremely low here as well, there are alot of workers putting in very long hours and paying a huge amount of federal tax. All of this benifits Canada as a whole.

[Guest eureka]

MM, it is estimated that the "petro dollar" has already cost Ontario 48,000 manufacturing jobs and that is only the start. I happen to think we are overdue for the next recession however, the word is now being mooted as an early possibility directly related to oil and gas prices and the dollar that is rising faster than adjustments can be made.

Many of Canada's resources are contributing to the exchange dilemma, but Alberta's is the largest factor by a wide margin.

And many Albertans want their unearned bonus. I know that some have a wider reach and, in fact, just yesterday I was with a couple of old friends who have grown wealthy from oil related businesses in Alberta - it was a reunion of a kind and they flew in for it. They are as concerned as I am about the direction of Alberta.

[B. Max]

MM, it is estimated that the "petro dollar" has already cost Ontario 48,000 manufacturing jobs and that is only the start. I happen to think we are overdue for the next recession however, the word is now being mooted as an early possibility directly related to oil and gas prices and the dollar that is rising faster than adjustments can be made.

Many of Canada's resources are contributing to the exchange dilemma, but Alberta's is the largest factor by a wide margin.

And many Albertans want their unearned bonus. I know that some have a wider reach and, in fact, just yesterday I was with a couple of old friends who have grown wealthy from oil related businesses in Alberta - it was a reunion of a kind and they flew in for it. They are as concerned as I am about the direction of Alberta.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They sound like i'm ok, i got mine jack. Just what direction are they concerned about?

[Minimus Maximus]

MM, it is estimated that the "petro dollar" has already cost Ontario 48,000 manufacturing jobs and that is only the start. I happen to think we are overdue for the next recession however, the word is now being mooted as an early possibility directly related to oil and gas prices and the dollar that is rising faster than adjustments can be made.

Many of Canada's resources are contributing to the exchange dilemma, but Alberta's is the largest factor by a wide margin.

And many Albertans want their unearned bonus. I know that some have a wider reach and, in fact, just yesterday I was with a couple of old friends who have grown wealthy from oil related businesses in Alberta - it was a reunion of a kind and they flew in for it. They are as concerned as I am about the direction of Alberta.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Eureka, High energy costs will continue to reek havoc in industry all over this country. I have more of a problem with the high cost of natural gas, after all we do live in a climate where heat is not an option. Many of the working poor will be adversly affected by the price of natural gas this winter, more so than the price of petroleum.

Meanwhile the federal gov't sits on a surplus in the neighborhood of 50 billion quid in the EI fund, continues to bring in surplus budgets due to energy royalties, yet no tax relief for the lowest income Canadian's who are most affected by these cost of living increases. Even if Alberta gave its entire surplus to the federal gov't nothing would change for Canadian's who are most in need for some type of relief due to the high cost of energy.

I can live without the dividend cheque my provincial gov't is sending out (we are a family of 4, so total is $1600.00 for my household). This money is going to family members who need it more than we do. I would rather see larger cheques go out to low income earners in Alberta instead of the blanket policy of $400.00/man, woman, child. Not my choice though.

These refunds are not unearned. There was a study done a little while ago concerning the amount of hours worked by Canadian's in various provinces, Albertan's by far work many more hours than all other Canadian's (will look around some more for proof, couldn't find what I was looking for this morning). I have had paycheques with as much as 120 hours of OT in a 2 week period, the amount of federal tax I have paid makes my bowels twist and contort. I see this refund as more payback for the sacrifices made and sacrifices which continue to be made in the name of our overall economy.

In closing, I don't like the direction this entire country is heading in. Alberta is mearly a symptom of larger problems. I don't like the Klien gov't and am looking forward to his retirement, too much power for far too long.

[August1991]

I gather you feel that if a high-speed rail link between Edmonton and Fort McMisery were such a good idea, some entrepreneur would have already undertaken this as a means of making money. 

I suppose the simple reply is, if giving away money were such a smart use of capital, then why aren't private enterprises running around giving away money?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OMG.

Governments and corporations, as I have argued elsewhere, are not the same thing at all. But I'll carry on with your example nonethe less.

Private enterprises do run around giving away money - it's called a dividend cheque and corporations mail them out when they have no good projects to invest in.

----

With that said, a rail link between Fort McWhatever and Edmonton may be a good idea and it would probably require government involvement. But it could also be a total boondoggle.

[August1991]

The only health premium that would make sense in my mind is one that varied according to people's behaviour. The last time I checked, smokers in Ontario now pay all the health costs (and then some) associated with their habit. That's the kind of health insurance premium people should pay.

A nice EUtopian vision but unfortunately reality is not that easy to attain. How do you vary health behaviour to the entire populace?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well then, tell me how car insurance works? How does our judicial system work? Why do buildings have smoke detectors and sprinklers? The list is endless.

Burns, my point is that making people pay a health "premium" that is unrelated to their behaviour is meaningless as an incentive. No insurance scheme is designed that way. So, the premium is just a tax.

Now Burns, you seem to believe that reminding people of something they already know is a way to change their behaviour. I would call that utopian. You are confusing symbol for reality.

Fewer Canadians smoke fewer cigarettes now than 30 years ago. I would argue that higher cigarette taxes have caused this drop, not constant reminders printed on packages.

And a Red Light is perceived to mean Stop, and Green Light is perceived to mean Go. If drivers ignore colours, is that abuse?

August, what color is that Kool-Aid you have been drinking? Enquiring minds want to know....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Red.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Cartman,

Agreed. It's not like us Albertans put the oil there or anything. August brought this up a long time ago and I thought it was an interesting question (I think it was something like "what entitles Albertans to the oil up north"). If memory serves, the responses were not as strong as the original query.

I was previously ignorant of the 'entitlement', but have since looked it up....here is a link..

http://www.solon.org/Constitutions/Canada/...sh/ca_1930.html

1. In order that the Province may be in the same position as the original Provinces of Confederation are in virtue of section one hundred and nine of the Constitution Act, 1867, the interest of the Crown in all Crown lands, mines, minerals (precious and base) and royalties derived therefrom within the Provinces, and all sums due or payable for such lands, mines, minerals or royalties, shall, from and after the coming into force of this agreement, and subject as therein otherwise provided, belong to the Province, subject to any trusts existing in respect thereof, and to any interest other than that of the Crown in the same, and the said lands, mines, minerals and royalties shall be administered by the Province for the purposes thereof, subject, until the Legislature of the Province otherwise provides, to the provisions of any Act of the Parliament of Canada relating to such administration; any payment received by Canada in respect of any such lands, mines, minerals or royalties before the coming into force of this agreement shall continue to belong to Canada whether paid in advance or otherwise, it being the intention that, except as herein otherwise specially provided, Canada shall not be liable to account to the Province for any payment made in respect of any of the said lands, mines, minerals or royalties before the coming into force of this agreement. and that the Province shall not be liable to account to Canada for any such payment made thereafter.

[B. Max]

With that said, a rail link between Fort McWhatever and Edmonton may be a good idea and it would probably require government involvement. But it could also be a total boondoggle.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That idea at last word has been scrapped because of opposition to it, and because to many potential users said they wouldn't use it. The alberta government had been prepared to sink a bunch of money into it. I would rather see them four lane the entire road to fort mac.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear B.Max,

The alberta government had been prepared to sink a bunch of money into it. I would rather see them four lane the entire road to fort mac.

I agree. There was also 'twice-scotched' talks of building a nuclear reactor near Ft. Mac, but this was also deemed not worthwhile.

[catch-as-catch-can]

Fewer Canadians smoke fewer cigarettes now than 30 years ago.  I would argue that higher cigarette taxes have caused this drop, not constant reminders printed on packages.

You obviously aren't as prone to tobacco addiction as most men are.

I bet that if they put this on cigarette packages instead, more people would cut down.

Listen:

"Tobacco, divine, rare, superexcellent tobacco,

which goes far beyond all the panaceas,

potable gold, and philosopher's stones,

a sovereign remedy to all diseases ...

but as it is commonly abused by most men,

which take it as tinkers do ale, 'tis a plague,

a mischief, a violent purger of goods, lands,

health, hellish, devilish and damned tobacco,

the ruin and overthrow of body and soul." - Robert Burton (1577-1640)

[Black Dog]

It doesn't matter. It reminds people that healthcare is not free. Something that is perceived to be free is abused. Everyone knows that. How difficult is that to understand?

In order to support this claim, you'd have to show that Alberta and B.C. have significantly less rates of healthcare "abuse" as you call it, than other provinces. Until then, you're talking out of your ass. As usual.

I believe Freud had a term for that: Projection.

You're really bad at this.

Burns, my point is that making people pay a health "premium" that is unrelated to their behaviour is meaningless as an incentive. No insurance scheme is designed that way. So, the premium is just a tax.

Exactly.

[catch-as-catch-can]

I believe Freud had a term for that:  Projection.

Brilliant man that Freud!

But then ... most Czechs are.

[Riverwind]

Agreed. It's not like us Albertans put the oil there or anything. August brought this up a long time ago and I thought it was an interesting question (I think it was something like "what entitles Albertans to the oil up north").

If memory serves, the responses were not as strong as the original query.

Fleabag,

The constitution gives the government of Alberta exclusive control over resources and the revenues that come from them, however, this does mean that those resources are an 'entitlement' that belongs only to Albertans. For starters, an Albertan is an arbitrary concept with roughly means: 'Someone who maintains a residence in Alberta'. I do not see how a right or entitlement could be conferred such an fluid group of people.

Furthermore, the quote from the constitution that you provided states that the provinces owns the revenues from these resources and is responsible for administering them, however, the resources themselves are still owned by the crown which is the sovereign nation of Canada. I may be splitting hairs but I am getting sick of the self righteous rhetoric coming out Alberta about how 'Albertans' own the oil. The facts of the situation are much more complicated.

[B. Max]

Agreed. It's not like us Albertans put the oil there or anything. August brought this up a long time ago and I thought it was an interesting question (I think it was something like "what entitles Albertans to the oil up north").

If memory serves, the responses were not as strong as the original query.

Fleabag,

The constitution gives the government of Alberta exclusive control over resources and the revenues that come from them, however, this does mean that those resources are an 'entitlement' that belongs only to Albertans. For starters, an Albertan is an arbitrary concept with roughly means: 'Someone who maintains a residence in Alberta'. I do not see how a right or entitlement could be conferred such an fluid group of people.

Furthermore, the quote from the constitution that you provided states that the provinces owns the revenues from these resources and is responsible for administering them, however, the resources themselves are still owned by the crown which is the sovereign nation of Canada. I may be splitting hairs but I am getting sick of the self righteous rhetoric coming out Alberta about how 'Albertans' own the oil. The facts of the situation are much more complicated.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's not right.

1. In order that the Province may be in the same position as the original Provinces of Confederation are in virtue of section one hundred and nine of the Constitution Act, 1867, the interest of the Crown in all Crown lands, mines, minerals (precious and base) and royalties derived therefrom within the Provinces, and all sums due or payable for such lands, mines, minerals or royalties, shall, from and after the coming into force of this agreement, and subject as therein otherwise provided, belong to the Province,

The interest / ownership was transfered to the provinces, of lands, mines, minerals (precious and base) and royalties derived therefrom within the Provinces,

It clearly tranfers the lands and minerals, and further states that any such royalties also belong to the provinces.

To suggest that the provinces don't own the resourses is ridiculous.

[catch-as-catch-can]

Good night!

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Sparhawk,

I may be splitting hairs

Law is all about splitting hairs. Down to where they can't be split any further, usually.

however, the resources themselves are still owned by the crown which is the sovereign nation of Canada.

That was my original contention, but the 1930 act seems to transfer all 'de facto ownership rights' to the provinces themselves (that is, provincial gov'ts, not the residents)

[kimmy]

OMG.

Governments and corporations, as I have argued elsewhere, are not the same thing at all.  But I'll carry on with your example nonethe less.

Private enterprises do run around giving away money - it's called a dividend cheque and corporations mail them out when they have no good projects to invest in.

Well, supposing Albertans to be shareholders, I suppose that would be a fair analogy. The specifics of whether Albertans are really shareholders seems to be somewhat more complicated, and I won't get into it.

Corporations exist to make money for their shareholders, and governments exist to provide "law, order, and good governance" or something. Whatever. Anyway, my concern is whether this is the best use of the money. We do have infrastructure to build and maintain and so on.

With that said, a rail link between Fort McWhatever and Edmonton may be a good idea and it would probably require government involvement.  But it could also be a total boondoggle.

Sure it could.

If they've given it a serious look and decided it wasn't viable, that's all I ask.

A nuclear reactor there could provide power and steam for oil extraction, which I understand presently requires a lot of natural gas. In 20 years when natural gas is awfully pricy in its own right, will we be wishing we'd built the damned reactor? If they at least looked at that too but decided it wasn't feasible, then that's good.

There are projects that governments can undertake that might not make sense for businesses but could dramatically benefit the future. I imagine the St Lawrence Seaway or various monumental-scale power-generating projects (tidal power in Quebec or huge dams...) are examples. There are things that can be done by 1 person with $1.3 billion that can't be done by 3.25 million people with $400 each.

If there simply aren't any projects like that to be built in Alberta, then I guess just giving the way the money might be one idea, but perhaps it could instead be saved for when there is some such project that to invest in.

I believe that the Heritage Trust Fund provided a major investment in the James Bay Hydro project, and I believe that Quebec continues to pay an annual interest payment because it more financially sensible than repaying the principal. I believe I once read that General Motor has never and probably will never see a cent of profit from creating the Saturn Motors, because the profits from the division are about the same as the interest on the money they invested would have been; they might never recover the principal they invested ... so why did they even bother? I dunno. Anyway, I guess what I'm saying is that having a big fat chunk of capital lying around could be valuable in the future. Even if we don't build some mega-project here in Alberta, maybe some other place in Canada would need some help building something important, and we could loan them the money at a low rate, as we did with James Bay.

-k