$400 for every man woman and child in Alberta

[catch-as-catch-can]

Ok ... so I used the vernacular. Most people say they're "paying their medicare bill". Picky picky.

But hey ... you did worse..."Healthcare premiums don't have anything to do with medicare."?????

So what DO the healthcare premiums pay for, hotdogs at the ballpark?

And incidently ... are you a closet big time socialist?

Socialists love to tell you what to do with extra money. Usually by taking it from you.

Conservatives like to put the money in your pocket & let YOU decide how you want to spend it. On healthcare premiums or a bottle of rum. Your choice.

That's our Ralphie!

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Black Dog,

Yeah, just what both cities need....more cars.

As I say, public transportation system would need to be improved before a rail link would be viable...otherwise, I'm just being realistic. I wouldn't take a train to Edmonton just to ride a crappy city bus just to get anywhere. The time I saved on a high-speed train would be wasted on the bus. Better and more extensive light-rail transit in both the cities, (including adding the airports as a destination) and double-decker/double length buses, etc (our transport fellows ought to go to europe for a visit) would be a better long term expenditure, I agree.

[Canuck E Stan]

So what does it take for a Canadian to become an Albertan? Is it now necessary to swear an oath of fealty to King Ralph and make a pilgrimage to Fort McMurray?

The same thing it takes for Albertans to be accepted by the ROC.

Not necessary to swear an oath to Ralph,

just swear at Martin and make a pilgrimage to your ballot box next election and vote him out.

Simple as that.

[catch-as-catch-can]

Except "healthcare" premiums don't pay for health care. They get sucked into general revenue.

None of the money that gets sucked into general revenue gets sucked back out and into health care?

[Black Dog]

As I say, public transportation system would need to be improved before a rail link would be viable...otherwise, I'm just being realistic. I wouldn't take a train to Edmonton just to ride a crappy city bus just to get anywhere. The time I saved on a high-speed train would be wasted on the bus. Better and more extensive light-rail transit in both the cities, (including adding the airports as a destination) and double-decker/double length buses, etc (our transport fellows ought to go to europe for a visit) would be a better long term expenditure, I agree.

Hey, if some of that surplus were to go to upgrading municipal tranist systems, you wouldn't hear me complain. And you're right: that would be a good first step (also probably a more long-term and sustainable move than building more goddamn roads).

None of the money that gets sucked into general revenue gets sucked back out and into health care?

According to Alberta Health, only one out of every nine dollars of your health care premiums goes back into health care.

[B. Max]

most of the people on this thread who are saying this is a bad idea are Albertans.

Yeah, many wish Ralph cut health premiums instead.

"TO HELL WITH THE NEEDY!", eh?

Is Ralph stopping you from applying your 400 bucks towards medicare?

Of course not!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And how, pray tell, is one suppossed to apply one's $400 to medicare?

"Excuse me Mr. Klein sir, I would like this $400 you've alloted me to go into medicare."

"Sure, I'll get right on that, just as soon as I finish up at the casino..."

Healthcare premiums don't have anything to do with medicare.

High speed rail from Calgary to Edmonton? Crazy. Few would use it, certainly not me, at least until public transportation on both ends became vastly improved. An 'Autobahn' lane would do more than a rail line for generating a more viable link.

Yeah, just what both cities need....more cars.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No they need better roads and less street lights on the major roads. Especially in edmonton. They build a freeway and before it's complete they have it filled it with lights. At least they finally took that damn light out on yellowhead and 184 ST.

[Canuck E Stan]

No different than the Feds,

everything in a big pot,and the amount each department gets,depends on how big of a bowl each department has.

[rbacon]

Any time taxpayers get their own money back it is a good thing. Public transit forget it, let the userpay. The taxpayers in Alberta already pay into the public transit sytems of our main cities. Those in the ROC who are whining to-night like Eureka, give up your Alberta subsidized lifestyle buy a busticket and come to Alberta we have a job for you, you can get off our payroll and work for your own upkeep for a change. The oil and gas belongs to the taxpayers and citizens of Alberta and no-one else. We send the ROC $1,000,000.00 an hour 24/7 365 days a year. I am no Ralph fan, but hi were is my 400 bucks. Healthcare premiums if that is your choice take the $400 bucks and pay your bill. Now let's work on no property tax at all in Alberta for individuals, or some other worthwhile endeavor. Thank's Alberta and thanks Ralph for giving back $400 of my dollars from the thousands I have sent to you.

[Canuck E Stan]

Alberta surplus could reach $8.8b: Klein

Looks like it isn't stopping here.

"Mr. Klein said there is a "much better than 50 per cent" chance of the program continuing as long as the price of oil stays where it is: above $60 a barrel.

That means the $400 tax-free cheques that will be sent to every man, woman and child in late December could keep coming for years."

Ralph Klein and the Albertans -In Your Face ROC Tour heading east this November, should be a great show- get your tickets now!

"The premier is planning a speaking trip across Ontario, Quebec and the Atlantic provinces in November to remind people of what Alberta already contributes to the rest of the country."

[Tom Sindlinger]

Premier Klein’s legacy dismal

compared to Premier Lougheed’s

Premier Klein’s kingly announcement that every Albertan will be given $400 at Christmas is simple minded, without vision, and an “in your face” irritant to other Canadians.

Compare Klein’s $400 legacy with that of former Premier Lougheed. Lougheed’s government had similar surplus revenues in 1976. He recognized the surplus was due to non-renewable resources, not taxes, and therefore created the Alberta Heritage Savings Trust Fund to hold the surplus. The Trust Fund invested in Alberta’s social and economic infrastructure, while at the same time saving for future generations and sharing through loans to other Canadian provinces.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear rbacon,

The oil and gas belongs to the taxpayers and citizens of Alberta and no-one else.

No, actually it either belongs to all Canadians (that is, the Gov't of Canada) or it belongs to the oil companies. I do not believe that there were any 'grubstakes' filed on behalf of the people of Alberta.

[Riverwind]

But when all is said and done, I (with my wife and daughter) could really use the $1,200.00 so I guess I'm on board.

Long live King Ralph!

I got my gas bill today. I was thinking I can take consolation in the fact that I am not going to have to get a second mortgage to heat my home (in Vancouver) this winter if natural gas prices go through the roof as the analysts predict. I am curious how much of this 'bonus' money that Albertans are getting will be spent on extra heating costs. Can anyone enlighten me?

[Black Dog]

We send the ROC $1,000,000.00 an hour 24/7 365 days a year.

Uh...by my math, that's $8,760,000,000.000.

Now let's work on no property tax at all in Alberta for individuals, or some other worthwhile endeavor.

Property tax is a municipal responsibility.

[Montgomery Burns]

Dear rbacon,

The oil and gas belongs to the taxpayers and citizens of Alberta and no-one else.

No, actually it either belongs to all Canadians (that is, the Gov't of Canada) or it belongs to the oil companies. I do not believe that there were any 'grubstakes' filed on behalf of the people of Alberta.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is regrettable that Theloniusfleabag seem unaware that our Constitution specifically gives control of natural resources to each province rather than to the federal govt.

[Montgomery Burns]

Black Dog:

Eliminating premiums altogether would give every Albertan an extra $500 a year, every year, which would surely be of greater benefit to the economy than a one-time present from Uncle Ralph.

Healthcare premiums should not be abolished. This $528 reminds people that healthcare is not "free", like so many Canadians seem to think it is.

Then later on, you ask Catch-as-catch-can how the $400 can go towards healthcare. Easy. You can choose to put the $400 towards the $528 healthcare premium. Indeed, the typical family of 4 could pay for the entire premium ($1056 per family) and still have $544 left over.

If oil revenues continue, as Klein thinks they might, then every year Alberta families could pay for their healthcare premiums, single Albertans could pay for 76% of their premium and still be reminded that healthcare has a cost.

[Cartman]

Healthcare premiums should not be abolished. This $528 reminds people that healthcare is not "free", like so many Canadians seem to think it is.

Then later on, you ask Catch-as-catch-can how the $400 can go towards healthcare. Easy. You can choose to put the $400 towards the $528 healthcare premium. Indeed, the typical family of 4 could pay for the entire premium ($1056 per family) and still have $544 left over.

My employer pays my premiums so I am not given such a reminder. I would rather have the money go to health care which everyone complains is always strapped for money, has long line-ups and is killing people. Which is it? Is it in need of money or not?

I am thinking of sending my cheque to the Alberta NDP as they need it more than I do.

[kimmy]

We send the ROC $1,000,000.00 an hour 24/7 365 days a year.

Uh...by my math, that's $8,760,000,000.000.

Sounds pretty much in line with the "fiscal imbalance" numbers being bandied about.

What got me was that it seems kind of ridiculous to make the total lack of vision or tforethought the program's selling point.

I got the impression he was trying to emphasize the non-recurring nature of this expenditure, not sell the program. "Free money!" is the only selling-point needed. Not that I feel there was any great amount of "vision" or "forethought" at work here either.

Edmonton To Fort McNewfoundland? It is not a dire need, at least for the time being. The cost would be large, and would not generate more production or increase profits. In effect, it would just be a subsidy to the cost of doing business up there. Why not just send all those rebate cheques to Ft. Mac now?

Indeed, why not? Fort McMurray is such a big part of our future that investing in it only makes sense. I think that if guys were a 2 hour train ride instead of 6 hour drive from the city, going to work up there would seem like a much less wretched choice. They could come home to visit their families or party in the city every weekend. Shortage of workers up there is holding us back; investing in stuff that will relieve the shortage is an investment in our future. Employers there could give out rail passes as an employee benefit or as bonuses.

Compare Klein’s $400 legacy with that of former Premier Lougheed. Lougheed’s government had similar surplus revenues in 1976. He recognized the surplus was due to non-renewable resources, not taxes, and therefore created the Alberta Heritage Savings Trust Fund to hold the surplus. The Trust Fund invested in Alberta’s social and economic infrastructure, while at the same time saving for future generations and sharing through loans to other Canadian provinces.

I feel about the same.

-k

[Black Dog]

Healthcare premiums should not be abolished. This $528 reminds people that healthcare is not "free", like so many Canadians seem to think it is.

But since the money we pay into our healthcare premiums doesn't actually go into our healthcare system, suggesting the payments we make are someow conected to the health of our system is disingenous.

Then later on, you ask Catch-as-catch-can how the $400 can go towards healthcare. Easy. You can choose to put the $400 towards the $528 healthcare premium. Indeed, the typical family of 4 could pay for the entire premium ($1056 per family) and still have $544 left over.

Again: healthcare premuims don't go into healthcare.

If oil revenues continue, as Klein thinks they might, then every year Alberta families could pay for their healthcare premiums, single Albertans could pay for 76% of their premium and still be reminded that healthcare has a cost.

So, basically, you're proposing setting up an arm of beauracracy to dole out money to Albertans and then have yet another arm to take that money back. How very Soviet.

It would be far more prudent (and dare I say it?) conservative, for the government to ax the uneccesary beauracracy and shoulder the burden of health care premiums itself.

[fellowtraveller]

I would rather have the money go to health care which everyone complains is always strapped for money, has long line-ups and is killing people. Which is it? Is it in need of money or not?

Then donate the money directly to a hospital, they'd be glad to have it.

You're right about the system needing money, and I'm sure you'll be routinely demanding explanations from the Liberals in Ottawa as to why they have gutted our beloved Medicare by denying the provinces the return of their own money.

BTW, Alberta already spends more per capita on universal health care than any other province.

The $400 is simply a return for over-taxation by the provincial government.

If only the Liberals ever thought in these terms, but they are just not wired like tha. It does not fit into the twin 'spend it all plus 10%" and "tax them until they die' philosophies.

[Black Dog]

The $400 is simply a return for over-taxation by the provincial government.

No, it's a result of extra revenue from oil and gas.

If Alberta (has so many like to remind us all) has the lowest taxes in Canada, how can we be overtaxed?

[Cartman]

You're right about the system needing money, and I'm sure you'll be routinely demanding explanations from the Liberals in Ottawa as to why they have gutted our beloved Medicare by denying the provinces the return of their own money.

BTW, Alberta already spends more per capita on universal health care than any other province.

I do not vote Liberal partly as a result of health care funding slashes, I vote NDP. So the answer to your sarcastic question about demanding questions of Ottawa is "yes". This does not, however, absolve the provincial governments of their legislated responsibilities on the matter. They agreed to block funding transfers in return for the ability to spend it as they please. If the system needs money as you agree and the Province of Alberta clearly has a lot of extra cash as we all agree, then how about spending it on health care?

Then donate the money directly to a hospital, they'd be glad to have it.

Clearly, my $400.00 will do little to change health care in Alberta, but $400.00 from every man, woman and child would likely make a big difference.

The $400 is simply a return for over-taxation by the provincial government.

This is not the stated goal of the government and even if it was, then they should have cut taxes. This is not a tax cut. It is a legal political bribe using our own money and I bitterly resent it. This is why I will probably send it to the Alberta NDP as I personally have no need for it.

[Canuck E Stan]

One has to remember that this $400 is not all of the surpluses and only a porttion of the total.Let's see what Ralph does with the rest of the money before making judgemnets.

I'm sure Ralph would be happy for you to stick the $400 where ever it makes you happy. It's your $400 to do with as you please.

[August1991]

Healthcare premiums should not be abolished. This $528 reminds people that healthcare is not "free", like so many Canadians seem to think it is.

That's silly. You make it sound as if the government should phone you up to remind you to take out the garbage.

Burns, like the Left, you are confusing symbols for reality. Does your car insurance premium remind you that car repairs are not free? No, the knowledge that your premiums will go up if you have an accident does that.

The only health premium that would make sense in my mind is one that varied according to people's behaviour. The last time I checked, smokers in Ontario now pay all the health costs (and then some) associated with their habit. That's the kind of health insurance premium people should pay.

Fort McMurray is such a big part of our future that investing in it only makes sense. I think that if guys were a 2 hour train ride instead of 6 hour drive from the city, going to work up there would seem like a much less wretched choice.

Hey, Kimmy, if it's such a good idea, why not build the KimmyExpress? (On the inaugural run, you can do as Lady Agnes and admire the view from the cowcatcher.)

My point is that hare-brained schemes are easy to justify when you are spending "other people's money".

----

This money, for the moment, is a one-off deal. Changing taxes and so on has long-term implications. Ideally, the Albertan government should give the money out in such a manner that it inspires the least amount of crazy behaviour by recipients (and potential recipients). Think of your grandmother and her will.

[Montgomery Burns]

Black Dog:

But since the money we pay into our healthcare premiums doesn't actually go into our healthcare system, suggesting the payments we make are someow conected to the health of our system is disingenous.

It doesn't matter. It reminds people that healthcare is not free. Something that is perceived to be free is abused. Everyone knows that. How difficult is that to understand?

So, basically, you're proposing setting up an arm of beauracracy to dole out money to Albertans and then have yet another arm to take that money back. How very Soviet.

I believe Freud had a term for that: Projection.

It would be far more prudent (and dare I say it?) conservative, for the government to ax the uneccesary beauracracy and shoulder the burden of health care premiums itself.

Thereby creating - in the public's mind - the perception that healthcare is free. Great.

[August1991]

Something that is perceived to be free is abused. Everyone knows that. How difficult is that to understand?

And a Red Light is perceived to mean Stop, and Green Light is perceived to mean Go. If drivers ignore colours, is that abuse?

Burns, is colour perception the problem?