Time to take on far-right terrorists

[marcus]

28 minutes ago, egghead said:

You make a very poor assumption that I do not follow the law closely. As I said, you mixed up the working visa and the immigration law 

I didn't mix anything up. I was giving you an example of the direction and the path to Canadian immigration.

Under the always evolving immigration system, those who have experience in Canada have the upper hand in immigration to Canada. Experience, meaning work experience or having graduated as an international student in Canada. This is why I mentioned that these 5 foreign workers that we received approval for will eventually apply for permanent residency in a year or two of working in Canada. 

Someone who wants to work in Canada, unless they have an open work permit due to a special agreement with Canada (usually with European countries and for those who are under 35), the company must file an LMIA or the person must be sponsored by the company through a provincial immigration program. All of these are stepping stones towards permanent residency. It is extremely difficult for someone who cannot speak English to immigrate to Canada. A language test must be done for all economic programs, which bring in majority of immigrants to Canada.

Edited March 30, 2019 by marcus

[marcus]

So far, every person who is against immigration in this thread, has proven that they DO NOT KNOW how immigration works in Canada.

They take their assumptions which are fanned by ignorance and think we have "open borders" or that we have "mass immigration" or that "immigrants go on welfare and are a big burden on our economy."

 

[egghead]

33 minutes ago, marcus said:

Sure, there are very rare exception, but really, how often do you think these scenarios happen?

you (the person who wants to sponsor your relative) don't have a living relative you could sponsor instead, such as a:

or

You can sponsor an orphaned brother, sister, nephew, niece or grandchild only if they meet all of these conditions:

I can tell you that these categories are very rarely used, because such scenarios are extremely rare. People who are sponsored through these exceptions fall under 1% of family sponsorship program.

I know what I am talking about. If you want to learn more, I'm happy to teach you more.

whatever you say 

[egghead]

1 hour ago, marcus said:

I didn't mix anything up. I was giving you an example of the direction and the path to Canadian immigration.

Under the always evolving immigration system, those who have experience in Canada have the upper hand in immigration to Canada. Experience, meaning work experience or having graduated as an international student in Canada. This is why I mentioned that these 5 foreign workers that we received approval for will eventually apply for permanent residency in a year or two of working in Canada. 

Someone who wants to work in Canada, unless they have an open work permit due to a special agreement with Canada (usually with European countries and for those who are under 35), the company must file an LMIA or the person must be sponsored by the company through a provincial immigration program. All of these are stepping stone towards permanent residency. It is extremely difficult for someone who cannot speak English to immigrate to Canada. A language test must be done for all economic programs, which bring in majority of immigrants to Canada.

Easy

little bit tricky

Anyway,  you said "We have some of the strictest immigration programs,"  but there are 300,000 immigrates per year  

Edited March 30, 2019 by egghead

[Army Guy]

1 hour ago, marcus said:

Nobody is saying it should be the answer to all of our troubles. It's a response to the low birth rate and the increasing number of retirees and to respond to the shortage of workers.

Thats not true at all , how many experts are actually touting this as the only solution to our current problems. Nobody is listening to any other solutions, including you, or you would not be defending this line of bull crap....

Where is your solution?

you spell out each of the main problems very clearly in your graph and your post...1. Birth rate decline, 2. Not enough people entering the job market for these shortages, and I did address each of them, but you glossed over that to correct me on immigration policies and rules....try reading all my post

Let's look at just some of your misinformed thoughts, as I don't have time to go through every single one:

Your right, I do have some misinformed thoughts,  I can take criticism , but some how I think your talking down to me. or some how I'm not worth your time, which makes me wonder why bother in the first place, why half ass your response....

There is no "massive" immigration. 300,000 permanent residents a year is less than 1% of our population.

Thats a new med sized city, every year, and while the government does ship them all over the country, once there time has expired where do you think they are going...start adding these numbers to Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, and you'll see they are quickly overwhelm....shit just the illegal immigrants alone , which numbers only 38 k these big cities are trying to cope... playing down the number is what the government does...

It's a lot more than that. It's jobs that you cannot do and are not qualified for. Majority of immigrants (over 65%) come through the economic class and I am willing to bet that an overwhelming majority have higher education than you and would bring more to the economy than you. Both in the skills they have and the assets that they bring in.

This is an easy fit, more education, be it discounted or free, some nations are already doing this to fill back logs in occupations , it's not a new solution, it's been around for a while....and thats not how stats can shows them they call them the experience class, principal class.....it reports this class on average makes 63 k a year gross....just for the record a corporal in the military makes 65k gross not trying to belittle your argument but in comparison thats peanuts,   ....and while it may be true they may be more educated than me or some Canadians, but they hardly contribute more to the economy than a basic Corporal in the Armed forces...and while I'll give you this, there are many multi millionaires that buy their way into the country,  but they are not the majority as you state 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/555824/average-earned-income-of-immigrants-canada-by-admission-category/

The only people you can sponsor are your spouse, your parents and your grandparents. This is very important and I hope you listen so that you don't keep repeating your misinformation:

I think egghead handled this one nicely

When it comes to parents/grandparents sponsorship, you:

1) Must meet a minimum income requirement,
2) Must financially support them for 10 years. Ie; If they go on any social services, the person sponsoring them is on the hook
3) Need to be one of only 20,000 parents/grandparents lucky people who will be allowed to sponsor each year

Overall, it takes about 10 years for an immigrant to earn equivalent to a Canadian born in the same job. That's not too bad. Since we have an age-ist immigration system when it comes to the biggest immigration program, you have a lot of extra time to work in the industry and give to the economy. FYI: You get extra points for being between 20-29 - and without those extra points, you have very little chance of being selected from a competitive pool called Express Entry.

Quote

Contrary to what people like Argus think, immigrants contribute to the economy. In 2017, for example, the labour force participation rates of immigrants aged 25 to 54 who landed more than 10 years earlier are comparable to those of the Canadian-born (86.9% vs. 88.4%), shows official report data. The economic performance of all immigrants increases with time spent in Canada. Average employment earnings reach the Canadian average at about 12 years after landing. 

Took this from your post actually it says 12 years to reach the average earnings of a average Canadian. according to the stats listed below well over 21 k will be 65 or over within that 12 years, with another 35 to 40k looking at retirement at age 55 or older....nearly 1/5 of your immigrants are aged out before your 12 year mark, not even counting how many timed out immigrants are allowed under other programs, like reunification with other family...so your looking at well over 50 to 60 k a year we are adding to the population  

https://www.statista.com/statistics/443305/international-migrants-in-canada-2014/

Canada has settlement programs for new immigrants, which are a good way to jumpstart a new life in Canada. But these programs are for a very short period of time. Going to school is not free for immigrants, which sounds like what you're insinuating.

Well here in NB Syrian refugees and immigrants do receive free language training, along with government sponsored programs that allow immigrants bring up their qualifications to Canadian standards, there are other programs as well...  

I can handle criticism , but thats not what you offered here...

 

 

[marcus]

1 minute ago, egghead said:

Easy

Hard

Anyway,  you said "We have some of the strictest immigration programs,"  but there are 300,000 immigrates per year  

It's easy? See, you know very little about how things work. It's not good to assume things based on your "feelings". 

We do have some of the strictest immigration programs. Currently, there are over 100,000 people in a pool called Express Entry. These are people who have met the minimum requirement as skilled workers, but only around 8-9% of them are selected each month, based on how high their points are. The point system has 4 major factors:

1) Age
2) Education
3) Work Experience (in Canada and outside)
4) Language

Due to the large number of people in this pool, if you do not maximize in each category, you have a small chance of being invited to apply for permanent residency. The program is seen as successful by Western countries around the world. Even Trump, yes Trump has praised it and wants U.S. to create a similar process.

Want to learn more? Here is a video:

 

[Army Guy]

35 minutes ago, marcus said:

So far, every person who is against immigration in this thread, has proven that they DO NOT KNOW how immigration works in Canada.

They take their assumptions which are fanned by ignorance and think we have "open borders" or that we have "mass immigration" or that "immigrants go on welfare and are a big burden on our economy."

 

I guess 25 to 30 bil is not a burden on our economy....and what do immigrants do if they don't earn as much as the avg Canadian for 12 years, which in NB is not a lot  are you saying they are not on welfare or government assistance....

[egghead]

32 minutes ago, marcus said:

It's easy? See, you know very little about how things work. It's not good to assume things based on your "feelings". 

We do have some of the strictest immigration programs. Currently, there are over 100,000 people in a pool called Express Entry. These are people who have met the minimum requirement as skilled workers, but only around 8-9% of them are selected each month, based on how high their points are. The point system has 4 major factors:

1) Age
2) Education
3) Work Experience (in Canada and outside)
4) Language

Due to the large number of people in this pool, if you do not maximize in each category, you have a small chance of being invited to apply for permanent residency. The program is seen as successful by Western countries around the world. Even Trump, yes Trump has praised it and wants U.S. to create a similar process.

I know the problems now; first of all, most of your clients are adequate candidates ; second, you play by the rules and have no idea on how to exploit the system. Or, you have  "give client a “worst case scenario” because no one has ever complained about being more successful than they thought they were" habit.

 

BTW, how can this point system help Canada gov't to stop terror suspects entering Canada?

Edited March 30, 2019 by egghead

[jacee]

5 hours ago, Army Guy said:

 ...and what do immigrants do if they don't earn as much as the avg Canadian for 12 years, 

The average income for Canadians is about $51,000 a year.

So about half of all Canadians earn more than $51,000 and about half earn less. 

So until about 12 years in the country, immigrants (with about half of other Canadians) manage to get along while earning less than $51,000 per year. 

Does that clarify? 

[jacee]

6 hours ago, egghead said:

BTW, how can this point system help Canada gov't to stop terror suspects entering Canada?

Why ask when you can look it up yourself?

https://www.canada.ca/en/security-intelligence-service/services/security-screening-for-immigration-and-citizenship-applications.html

Security screening for immigration and citizenship applications

CSIS and CBSA provide security advice to IRCC to make sure applicants are not a threat to national security. 

And why complain before you bother to learn the facts? 

And BTW, how many "terror suspects" have come through Canada's Immigration system? 

Also this:

https://www.folio.ca/are-refugees-a-threat-to-canada/

“For a refugee, you have to get interviewed and screened by the United Nations High Commission on Refugees, then you get screened by Canadian immigration and Canadian security organizations, and then you can enter Canada,” he says. “That’s an incredible amount of screening, and if you were a terrorist looking to infiltrate the country, that would be your last choice. It’s too onerous and the chances of detection are very high.”

 

Edited March 30, 2019 by jacee

[egghead]

1 hour ago, jacee said:

The average income for Canadians is about $51,000 a year.

So about half of all Canadians earn more than $51,000 and about half earn less. 

So until about 12 years in the country, immigrants (with about half of other Canadians) manage to get along while earning less than $51,000 per year. 

Does that clarify? 

Avg is not median 

[egghead]

1 hour ago, jacee said:

Why ask when you can look it up yourself?

https://www.canada.ca/en/security-intelligence-service/services/security-screening-for-immigration-and-citizenship-applications.html

Security screening for immigration and citizenship applications

CSIS and CBSA provide security advice to IRCC to make sure applicants are not a threat to national security. 

And why complain before you bother to learn the facts? 

And BTW, how many "terror suspects" have come through Canada's Immigration system? 

Also this:

https://www.folio.ca/are-refugees-a-threat-to-canada/

“For a refugee, you have to get interviewed and screened by the United Nations High Commission on Refugees, then you get screened by Canadian immigration and Canadian security organizations, and then you can enter Canada,” he says. “That’s an incredible amount of screening, and if you were a terrorist looking to infiltrate the country, that would be your last choice. It’s too onerous and the chances of detection are very high.”

 

What does it mean

[jacee]

24 minutes ago, egghead said:

Avg is not median 

Thus, "about". 

I didn't want to complicate things with details about different measures of central tendency. 

I was just trying to get across to Army Guy the fact that immigrants are not that different as a lot of Canadians also earn less than the 'average' income (without being on "welfare"). 

Edited March 30, 2019 by jacee

[jacee]

23 minutes ago, egghead said:

What does it mean

Your question: BTW, how can this point system help Canada gov't to stop terror suspects entering Canada?

My answer: As well as the point system for immigration, there is also security assessment.

Does that clarify? 

[cannuck]

1 hour ago, jacee said:

Your question: BTW, how can this point system help Canada gov't to stop terror suspects entering Canada?

My answer: As well as the point system for immigration, there is also security assessment.

Does that clarify? 

The "security assessment" is a joke.  It is actually called a "security clearance" and is obtained from authorities in the country of current citizenship.  This is why immigrants use very expensive "immigration consultants" who instruct them what to do, what to say, what to write (usually none of it actually true) and take care of bribing local officials or simply forge the docs on the spot.

There is literally NO control over what is coming into the country, not even a single face-to-face interview.  One of the reasons immigration from culturally similar countries is so preferred (by logical people) is that there is a high likelihood of rule-of-law thus legitimate documentation.  From many third world countries that is 100% impossible.

From other thread content:  while it is true that many immigrants ARE technically qualified as professionals, in many cases you do not earn professional accredation based on merit but privilege.  One of the reasons SNC gets thrown off of so many major projects is once they get the contract, they flood their offices with engineers who are "guest workers" from countries where professionalism is far second to privilege.

[egghead]

3 hours ago, jacee said:

Thus, "about". 

I didn't want to complicate things with details about different measures of central tendency. 

I was just trying to get across to Army Guy the fact that immigrants are not that different as a lot of Canadians also earn less than the 'average' income (without being on "welfare"). 

Immigrants are seldom on welfare (does not mean there is no burden on our economy ), but refugees are different stories 

[Saudi Monitor]

On 3/28/2019 at 2:40 AM, Realitycheck said:

Wrong. The real world has no gods. Reality is real. Gods are the fallacies of weak minded fools.

In fact if one were to believe that houses and buildings formed on their own, such a person would be called deluded, so how about the universe and life itself? Is it a delusion to believe that we humans have a purpose in life, rather than being the simple chance of biological evolution, with no real purpose in life other than to survive?The reality is that the belief in God is something very natural, innate and rational. Please reflect  

Edited March 30, 2019 by Saudi Monitor

[Realitycheck]

1 minute ago, Saudi Monitor said:

In fact if one were to believe that houses and buildings formed on their own, such a person would be called deluded, so how about the universe and life itself?! s it a delusion to believe that we humans have a purpose in life, rather than being the simple chance of biological evolution, with no real purpose in life other than to survive?The reality is that the belief in God is something very natural, innate and rational. Please reflect  

If it were natural to believe in imaginary beings, children wouldn't have to be taught such foolishness. Furthermore, if there were a god, there'd be only one religion.  

[Michael Hardner]

13 hours ago, marcus said:

So far, every person who is against immigration in this thread, has proven that they DO NOT KNOW how immigration works in Canada.

My experience exactly with people who argue against immigration on Facebook & the web.  

The sad thing is that political actors who know better feed off this ignorance to make fake promises.  

[Argus]

On 3/29/2019 at 3:51 AM, marcus said:

Without immigration, we do not have enough people who would take over the jobs of the retiring, who are growing in numbers.

Three separate studies have shown we have no shortage of labour nor is one foreseen in the coming decades.

On 3/29/2019 at 3:51 AM, marcus said:

There are labour shortages, particularly in health, sciences, skilled trades, transport, and equipment.

Canada has a problem with its employer base, who much to import skilled people cheap than train up Canadians to do the work. Screw them. Can't find qualified employees? Pay more. And try training some. 

On 3/29/2019 at 3:51 AM, marcus said:

Contrary to what people like Argus think, immigrants contribute to the economy. In 2017, for example, the labour force participation rates of immigrants aged 25 to 54 who landed more than 10 years earlier are comparable to those of the Canadian-born (86.9% vs. 88.4%), shows official report data.

Being in the labour force is not that much of a contribution given a progressive taxation system means half those people pay no income tax, and are thus a drain on the national purse. The right kind of immigrants, who are skilled, want to assimilate, and have a good grasp of English, do well. Many immigrants are none of those things.

On 3/29/2019 at 3:51 AM, marcus said:

The economic performance of all immigrants increases with time spent in Canada. Average employment earnings reach the Canadian average at about 12 years after landing. 

For some. For others it never does.

On 3/29/2019 at 3:51 AM, marcus said:

Immigrants are the answer to this. 

No, they are not. Demographics experts have pointed out that you cannot make up for a low birth rate or aging population through immigration. That's especially so given the average age of immigrants is really not much lower than Canadian-born. And if that were the case we'd be prioratizing young people, not doubling and then quadrupling the number of elderly immigrants coming in.

And, of course, you leave aside the question of culture. The assumption immigrants from all over would simply assimilate into the mainstream is not born out by facts. Given the numbers coming in now we have large foreign populations growing within our major cities, filled with people retaining their old cultures, values and language. Their kids show up at school at age five or six without being able to speak a word of English, and often enough find a school where 70% of the kids are foreigners - which includes them, even if they were born in Canada. How are they supposed to assimilate? 

The government's own immigration department has warned we are reaching the saturation point, assimilation is slowing down, and is not automatic.

That is what worries a lot of people, and in particularly, those 'alt-right' folks you people on the alt-left are so concerned about.

[Argus]

18 hours ago, marcus said:

I am not for "Open Arms Policy" either. Canada's immigration policy is far from being open arms. We have some of the strictest immigration programs compared to other Western countries.

That's crap. You can't have strict policies if you want to bring in a million people every three years. Nor do you have time to look them over. It's basically a matter of furiously processing paper applications as fast as you can and waving them through the rapidly spinning turnstiles. It's even more difficult when a growing portion of our immigrants are made up of refugees who have been accepted (despite not qualifying under strict interpretations). Over 20% of our population is already foreign born, and that will rise to 30% by 2036.

18 hours ago, marcus said:

Many of them want to model our policies. Even Trump has repeatedly said that he wants to model our policies.

The unemployment rate among American immigrants is lower than the base population. The unemployment rate among Canadian immigrants is higher. Trump, as usual, knows nothing.

18 hours ago, marcus said:

Japan has problems with their population. They are getting older and people are not having enough children to keep the economy. They either have to open their doors more or their robot technology needs to step it up.

And yet they seem to be in fine shape with low crime and few social problems.

[PIK]

At a huge cost, that we do not need. They should have followed the law and turned them away.

[Argus]

18 hours ago, marcus said:

Immigrants pay taxes. Immigrants work. Our immigration firm recently brought in 5 foreign workers to work in Canada.

Ah, so there we have it. You're part of the immigration industry, profiting off high immigration. It's not in your economic interest to have that lowered.

18 hours ago, marcus said:

They will more than likely become permanent residents in a year or two. They comprise of a computer system analyst from India, a business analyst from Germany, an architect and a civil engineer from Iran and a carpenter from Ireland. You have the wrong understanding of who immigrants are. 

Cherry picking isn't that helpful when almost every one of us sees the crime reports in the paper every day of immigrants who are NOT business analysts or architects or civil engineers, who have no skills, can barely speak English, and are both dangerous and a drain on the public purse. The popularity of Quebec's anti-religion law is symbolic of the unease the majority of Canadians now feel about the flood of newcomers who arrive without skills and who are determined to retain their old, primitive, barbaric values and beliefs. The fact that younger, Canadian born Muslim girls are more likely to wear veils and burquas and hijabs than the older generation is a sign that assimilation is not working for this population, and that the importation of more needs to be slowed, if not stopped.

[DogOnPorch]

Numbers tell the tale. A million in 3 years? That's not immigration. But there are a few choice words that do describe it.

 

[Argus]

17 hours ago, marcus said:

Nobody is saying it should be the answer to all of our troubles. It's a response to the low birth rate and the increasing number of retirees and to respond to the shortage of workers.

Studies have shown this will not work.

Quote

Where is your solution?

Programs to encourage Canadians to have more kids.

Quote

There is no "massive" immigration. 300,000 permanent residents a year is less than 1% of our population.

It's up to 320,000 and the Liberals have announced they'll be raising it every year, to 350,000. Over 20% of the population is now foreign born and that will rise to 30% in fifteen years.

Quote

It's a lot more than that. It's jobs that you cannot do and are not qualified for. Majority of immigrants (over 65%) come through the economic class and I am willing to bet that an overwhelming majority have higher education than you and would bring more to the economy than you.

First, that  figure is deceptive as it implies these are all skilled people. Less than a quarter are. The remainder are the family of the skilled applicant.

Among recent immigrants living in Canada in 2016, approximately 6 in 10 were admitted under the economic category, when principal applicants, spouses and dependants were taken into account.

Second, the government has done a piss-poor job at determining what jobs we require that can be filled by foreigners, leaving many unable to find work in their field. Third, a degree does you little good in most fields without high communications skills in English/French, which the majority of immigrants lack.

Quote

The only people you can sponsor are your spouse, your parents and your grandparents. This is very important and I hope you listen so that you don't keep repeating your misinformation:

Of course, your parents can then sponsor your siblings, and all of you can sponsor your kids. Your siblings can sponsor their spouses who can sponsor their parents who can sponsor their kids. Wasn't there a recent story of a Somali family which is now 150 strong in Canada, all of them having come in through various sponsorships after the first bunch came in as refugees?

Quote

When it comes to parents/grandparents sponsorship, you:

1) Must meet a minimum income requirement,
2) Must financially support them for 10 years. Ie; If they go on any social services, the person sponsoring them is on the hook

Theoretically, but the government virtually never even tries to get that money back. When the Conservatives lowered this program to 50,000 they stated a quarter of the sponsored elderly immigrants were winding up on welfare. And, of course, all are immediately eligible for full health care as they enter their senior years, do not need to speak English or French or have any skills, and will get OAS and GIS in ten years.

 

Edited March 30, 2019 by Argus