Time to take on far-right terrorists

[Owly]

1 minute ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Yep. Well aware of Catholics and Protestants going to war with each other throughout history. That is not proof that religion is inherently negative. It's not like they wouldn't have found other reasons to fight if they were all atheists.

Existence of war committed by religious people is not proof that religion has a bad track record, you have to compare it to the alternatives, and when you do that, religion has a great track record.

Ever heard of "The Crusades"?

[Yzermandius19]

7 minutes ago, Owly said:

Ever heard of "The Crusades"?

Indeed. I am aware that religions haven't been perfectly peaceful throughout history, that doesn't make religion inherently negative though. Without religion, people would just come up with other excuses to fight over shit, and they have throughout history. Religion is not uniquely to blame for war, nor is it a particularly egregious offender in that regard.

Edited March 27, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Owly]

4 minutes ago, Owly said:

Ever heard of "The Crusades"?

The point is I could go on and on reiterating religious wars throughout history and you could continue to grasp at straws for excuses. The other point is I didn't need the 10 commandments or a preacher, rabi, imam, etc., to tell me not to kill anybody, steel from them, try to shag my buddies wife etc. I learned all that from being raised by good people and just living my life. Look at all the money I saved from not having to add to the collection plate.

[egghead]

10 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

A lot of the people hating on religion in this thread are only looking at the negative examples of religion, I look at both, and the ledger says religion isn't an inherently negative concept, quite clearly.

I did not bad mouth religion. may be I should quote "Chinese Rites controversy" instead 

[Yzermandius19]

8 minutes ago, Owly said:

The point is I could go on and on reiterating religious wars throughout history and you could continue to grasp at straws for excuses. The other point is I didn't need the 10 commandments or a preacher, rabi, imam, etc., to tell me not to kill anybody, steel from them, try to shag my buddies wife etc. I learned all that from being raised by good people and just living my life. Look at all the money I saved from not having to add to the collection plate.

Never said you need religion to be moral or ethical. A lot of good people who aren't religious hold similar values to those who are religious anyways, what a strange coincidence, not. You may have learned your morals and ethics from the dinner table, but go back far enough, and those values came from your families religious beliefs at some point in the last several generations. Denying your religious roots of your moral compass is putting your head in the sand.

Edited March 27, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Yzermandius19]

3 minutes ago, egghead said:

I did not bad mouth religion. may be I should quote "Chinese Rites controversy" instead 

Others in this thread are though, look at owly here for instance.

[WestCanMan]

34 minutes ago, Realitycheck said:

1400 years of child and other abuse, murder rape, genocide, promoting wars in xianity alone is certainly a fine role model.

Here's your checklist: Did they follow the example set by their religious leaders?

If you're a muslim, that means that you can surround your enemies, and when they surrender you can cut off the heads of all the men and take the women and children as sex slaves. Islamic state wasn't straying that far from the example set by mohammed now, were they? 

Find me the place in the bible where Jesus did this kind of thing RC and then you will have proven your point. Show me evidence that people think that Buddha did this kind of thing and you will have proven your point.

Anything else is just humans failing.

 

 

[Saudi Monitor]

2 hours ago, Realitycheck said:

human enjoyed morals and ethics long before religions started taking credit for what is an innate human trait

Islamic position also states that God has placed an innate disposition within us to confirm our worth, and to recognise foundational moral truths. This disposition is called the fitrah in Islam. Another reason we can claim ultimate morality is, because God created us with a deep-seated  purpose, we have value because the creature of the universe has given us value to have an affinity to recognise God and the truth of our existence.

"Our Lord, You did not create this aimlessly" (3:191)

"Indeed in that is a sign for a people who give thought." (16:69)
 

Infants 'have natural belief in God'

https://www.theage.com.au/national/infants-have-natural-belief-in-god-20080725-3l3b.html

 

Edited March 27, 2019 by Saudi Monitor

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, Saudi Monitor said:

Islamic position also states that God has placed an innate disposition within us to confirm our worth, and to recognise foundational moral truths. This disposition is called the fitrah in Islam. Another reason we can claim ultimate morality is, because God created us with a deep-seated  purpose, we have value because the creature of the universe has given us value to have an affinity to recognise God and the truth of our existence.

"Our Lord, You did not create this aimlessly" (3:191)

"Indeed in that is a sign for a people who give thought." (16:69)
 

 

Nobody on team Islam ever seems to ask..."Who created Allah?"

[WestCanMan]

Religion is awesome on the small scale. All religion. It really helps neighbours get along with other neighbours. Their fear of [god or whoever's wrath or whatever punishment after death] and their common beliefs help people get along well enough to build towns, maybe empires.

But at the place where religious tectonic plates meet up the friction is unbearable and the destruction is horrendous.

Ultimately humans need to outgrow religion, and hopefully the Christian ideals that became our laws prevail.

It's sad to see how the people who grew up here are so unaware of how good they have it, how good women and families have it. How easy it is for other cultures/religions to join the mix here. 

Some people are only happy when they're bitching, and they feel important when they're talking down about our western culture. People need to get out more, experience the rest of the world.

[Owly]

9 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Never said you need religion to be moral or ethical. A lot of good people who aren't religious hold similar values to those who are religious anyways, what a strange coincidence, not. You may have learned your morals and ethics from the dinner table, but go back far enough, and those values came from your families religious beliefs at some point in the last several generations. Denying your religious roots of your moral compass is putting your head in the sand.

No I'm afraid it's the people who buy into these various fake books (bible. koran, etc) who think they were written in the ozone somewhere but were actually written by men who wanted to control other men, and women, who actually have their head in the sand.

[Yzermandius19]

7 minutes ago, Owly said:

No I'm afraid it's the people who buy into these various fake books (bible. koran, etc) who think they were written in the ozone somewhere but were actually written by men who wanted to control other men, and women, who actually have their head in the sand.

Strawman of the religious. Many religious folks know that much of the bible is metaphorical, not literal, and written by men, not god himself. They use stories to teach people morals and ethics of the religion, that's the purpose of "the book of lies" as some here like to refer to it.

You want to pretend that all religious people believe the silliest beliefs that you know some religious people hold, to demonize the entire group, but that isn't actually the case that they all view the stories in the bible as having literally happened, though a minority of them do.

Edited March 27, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Owly]

1 minute ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Strawman of the religious. Many religious folks know that much of the bible is metaphorical, not literal, and written by men, not god himself.

Good to hear the folks are getting closer to, and understand better, reality.

[Yzermandius19]

3 minutes ago, Owly said:

Good to hear the folks are getting closer to, and understand better, reality.

Indeed, and it isn't only the atheists who are understanding reality better, many religious folks do as well, and many atheists don't understand reality better than their religious counterparts. Neither side has a monopoly on understanding reality and neither side has a monopoly on being ignorant of reality.

Edited March 27, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Realitycheck]

21 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Here's your checklist: Did they follow the example set by their religious leaders?

If you're a muslim, that means that you can surround your enemies, and when they surrender you can cut off the heads of all the men and take the women and children as sex slaves. Islamic state wasn't straying that far from the example set by mohammed now, were they? 

Find me the place in the bible where Jesus did this kind of thing RC and then you will have proven your point. Show me evidence that people think that Buddha did this kind of thing and you will have proven your point.

Anything else is just humans failing.

"• King Menahem of Israel destroyed Tiphsah (also called Tappuah) and the surrounding towns, killing all residents and ripping open pregnant women with the sword (2 Kings 15:16)."  Never said Buddha did anything, he too is a myth. 

 

 

[Owly]

3 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Indeed, and it isn't only the atheists who are understanding reality better, many religious folks do as well, and many atheists don't understand reality better than their religious counterparts. Neither side has a monopoly on understanding reality and neither side has a monopoly on being ignorant of reality.

I suspect a lot of athiests understand reality enough to know the world wasn't built in 6 days with a rest day scheduled for day 7.

[Yzermandius19]

2 minutes ago, Owly said:

I suspect a lot of athiests understand reality enough to know the world wasn't built in 6 days with a rest day scheduled for day 7.

I suspect a lot of theists understand reality enough to know the world wasn't built in 6 days, with a rest day scheduled for day 7. It's a metaphor, most religious folks aren't oblivious to that, you just want to argue against the silliest positions some religious people take, and then project those views onto all religious people, so you have an easy target to take down, without having to consider the value of religion.

Edited March 27, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Realitycheck]

18 minutes ago, Saudi Monitor said:

Islamic position also states that God has placed an innate disposition within us to confirm our worth, and to recognise foundational moral truths. This disposition is called the fitrah in Islam. Another reason we can claim ultimate morality is, because God created us with a deep-seated  purpose, we have value because the creature of the universe has given us value to have an affinity to recognise God and the truth of our existence.

"Our Lord, You did not create this aimlessly" (3:191)

"Indeed in that is a sign for a people who give thought." (16:69)
 

Infants 'have natural belief in God'

https://www.theage.com.au/national/infants-have-natural-belief-in-god-20080725-3l3b.html

 

What Petrovich believes has no bearing on reality. 

[Owly]

3 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

I suspect a lot of theists understand reality enough to know the world wasn't built in 6 days, with a rest day scheduled for day 7. It's a metaphor, most religious folks aren't oblivious to that, you just want to argue against the silliest positions some religious people take, and then project those views onto all religious people, so you have an easy target to take down, without having to consider the value of religion.

Religion has a certain value in that it provides a venue for people to get together and socialize for a bit. My grandparents used to attend the United Church every now and then after the hour or so of sermon and hymns, the old farmers would wander outside and talk about how the crops were going. That part of religion has some value.

[Yzermandius19]

2 minutes ago, Owly said:

Religion has a certain value in that it provides a venue for people to get together and socialize for a bit. My grandparents used to attend the United Church every now and then after the hour or so of sermon and hymns, the old farmers would wander outside and talk about how the crops were going. That part of religion has some value.

Agreed. That isn't it's only value, but it's a big one for sure. Communal Purpose FTW.

[Saudi Monitor]

45 minutes ago, Realitycheck said:

What Petrovich believes has no bearing on reality. 

The Islamic concept of the fitrah is supported by various psychological, sociological and anthropological evidence as there has been an extensive academic and scientific research exploring children's innate belief in God and of certain universal religious ideas.

Children are born believers in God, academic claims

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/3512686/Children-are-born-believers-in-God-academic-claims.html

In summary, to deny God who is self-evident truth is like denying the real world is actually real   
 

[WestCanMan]

2 hours ago, Realitycheck said:

"• King Menahem of Israel destroyed Tiphsah (also called Tappuah) and the surrounding towns, killing all residents and ripping open pregnant women with the sword (2 Kings 15:16)."  Never said Buddha did anything, he too is a myth. 

Who is King Menahim?

For your edification:

Gautama Buddha^{[note 3]} (c. 563/480 – c. 483/400 BCE), also known as Siddhārtha Gautama (सिद्धार्थ गौतम) in Sanskrit or Siddhattha Gotama (शिद्धत्थ गोतम) in Pali ,^{[note 4]} Shakyamuni (i.e. "Sage of the Shakyas") Buddha,^{[4][note 5]} or simply the Buddha, after the title of Buddha, was a monk(śramaṇa),^[5][6] mendicant, sage,^[4] philosopher, teacher and religious leader on whose teachings Buddhism was founded.^[7] He is believed to have lived and taught mostly in the northeastern part of ancient India sometime between the 6th and 4th centuries BCE.^{[8][note 6]}

Gautama taught a Middle Way between sensual indulgence and the severe asceticism found in the śramaṇa movement^[9] common in his region. He later taught throughout other regions of eastern India such as Magadha and Kosala.^[8][10]

Gautama is the primary figure in Buddhism. He is believed by Buddhists to be an enlightened teacher who attained full Buddhahood and shared his insights to help sentient beings end rebirth and suffering. Accounts of his life, discourses and monastic rules are believed by Buddhists to have been summarised after his death and memorized by his followers. Various collections of teachings attributed to him were passed down by oral tradition and first committed to writing about 400 years later.

 

 

IE, not a religious fanatic or an a-hole.

 

[Realitycheck]

2 hours ago, Saudi Monitor said:

The Islamic concept of the fitrah is supported by various psychological, sociological and anthropological evidence as there has been an extensive academic and scientific research exploring children's innate belief in God and of certain universal religious ideas.

Children are born believers in God, academic claims

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/3512686/Children-are-born-believers-in-God-academic-claims.html

In summary, to deny God who is self-evident truth is like denying the real world is actually real   
 

Wrong. The real world has no gods. Reality is real. Gods are the fallacies of weak minded fools.

Edited March 28, 2019 by Realitycheck

[Realitycheck]

51 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Who is King Menahim?

For your edification:

Gautama Buddha^{[note 3]} (c. 563/480 – c. 483/400 BCE), also known as Siddhārtha Gautama (सिद्धार्थ गौतम) in Sanskrit or Siddhattha Gotama (शिद्धत्थ गोतम) in Pali ,^{[note 4]} Shakyamuni (i.e. "Sage of the Shakyas") Buddha,^{[4][note 5]} or simply the Buddha, after the title of Buddha, was a monk(śramaṇa),^[5][6] mendicant, sage,^[4] philosopher, teacher and religious leader on whose teachings Buddhism was founded.^[7] He is believed to have lived and taught mostly in the northeastern part of ancient India sometime between the 6th and 4th centuries BCE.^{[8][note 6]}

Gautama taught a Middle Way between sensual indulgence and the severe asceticism found in the śramaṇa movement^[9] common in his region. He later taught throughout other regions of eastern India such as Magadha and Kosala.^[8][10]

Gautama is the primary figure in Buddhism. He is believed by Buddhists to be an enlightened teacher who attained full Buddhahood and shared his insights to help sentient beings end rebirth and suffering. Accounts of his life, discourses and monastic rules are believed by Buddhists to have been summarised after his death and memorized by his followers. Various collections of teachings attributed to him were passed down by oral tradition and first committed to writing about 400 years later.

 

 

IE, not a religious fanatic or an a-hole.

 

Um, where is the proof? This is nothing more than hearsay.

[marcus]

7 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

Unfortunately not everyone abides by the awesome rules that you're talking about Marcus. Companies have new job openings all the time. People hire nannies and farm workers all the time. Contractors take on new employees all the time to paint, clean up jobsites, carry shingles up a ladder, cut grass, etc, etc, etc, all the time. They open up meat processing plants in areas where there are no other meat processing plants to compare the wages to.

Guess who they want to hire.... the guy who dropped out of high school and wants $20/hr and then you have payroll taxes and accounting fees on top of that, or the guy who just crossed the border illegally and would love $12/hr so he can feed his kids? 

In your perfect world that doesn't happen, but we're stuck here on earth. 

What you're describing above happens often in the U.S., but not in Canada. It's rare that someone is in Canada without a status. A foreign worker would need a work permit to work. You can't just get an open work permit unless you are in a special situation.

Workers coming from outside of Canada usually go through a process called LMIA. Then they can get a work permit based on the sponsoring company who must abide by specific salaries.