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1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

When I say "greatest story ever told" it literally means "story", as in re-hashed story. Not "accurate historical account".

I never said the virgin birth etc was gospel truth. I'm not vouching for any of it. 

It's a story, and some people choose to believe it, and the end result is that they're choosing a positive role model. Just like if kids choose to be fans of Wayne Gretzky or Lionel Messi instead of Clifford Olson. 

Does it make a difference to you what observances were originally held by pagans on those dates, or are you just trying to throw out some facts to sound intelligent? It doesn't make any difference does it RC?

The point you seem to be obtuse about is human enjoyed morals and ethics long before religions started taking credit for what is an innate human trait. Hell, Chimps and Elephants show more morality and empathy than many religious cults.

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16 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

The “prevailing wage” just goes down when you bring in enough foreign workers. 

No. Unfortunately, just like Argus, you also don't know what you're talking about when it comes to foreign workers and their effect on wages. If the medium salary in a position is at something specific, it doesn't matter how many foreign workers they bring in, they cannot be offering foreign workers a wage below that. So they cannot bring it down. 

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1 hour ago, Realitycheck said:

The point you seem to be obtuse about is human enjoyed morals and ethics long before religions started taking credit for what is an innate human trait. Hell, Chimps and Elephants show more morality and empathy than many religious cults.

Religion didn't invent morals and ethics, but religion certainly promotes them, and does a damn good job of it too.

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1 hour ago, Realitycheck said:

The point you seem to be obtuse about is human enjoyed morals and ethics long before religions started taking credit for what is an innate human trait. Hell, Chimps and Elephants show more morality and empathy than many religious cults.

I haven't been obtuse about anything. You're just trying to prove your moral superiority over Christianity and you're intentionally ignorant to anything that challenges your belief.

Yes, people may show signs of altruism when they can, and no, Christianity and other religions didn't invent it, but humans are actually followers first and foremost. Have you ever heard the saying "Kill one man and you're a murderer, kill a million men and you're a hero"? That's a real thing. Alexander the Great didn't cure cancer. Ghengis and Kubilai Khan didn't need to rule over 100,000 square miles of the planet so badly that they needed to kill hundreds of thousands of people to do it. But they were leaders so people followed them. Killing other people to get loot and expand their power was their religion. 

People follow their tribes, their spiritual leaders, they pick their favourite news channel or they pick a religion or a political party or some combination of all those things and then they put on their blinders to everything else. "OOH Leonardo DiCaprio is so dreamy, and he flew all the way here on his private jet just to tell us that the oil sands suck! We need to boycott that oil NOW! Let's get our oil from Saudi Arabia and Nigeria instead! They can send tankers through the very same waterways that we are closing off to Alberta oil!" That honestly makes sense to some people. That's why they say truth is stranger than fiction. If I wrote a fictional novel about that people would utterly reject the notion, but it plays out exactly like that in real life because people - blindly - follow. "You can always convince one half of the poor people to kill the other half".

That's why I say that I am happy to see people finding good role models to follow. The average person won't choose a decent path in most circumstances.

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18 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Religion didn't invent morals and ethics, but religion certainly promotes them, and does a damn good job of it too.

No way, religions have nothing to do morals and ethics. They are all add-on, and religions did a poor job promoting them as well.

Edited by egghead
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4 minutes ago, egghead said:

No way, religion has nothing to do morals and ethics. They are all add-on, and they did a poor job promoting them as well.

Very true. I learned my morals and ethics sitting not on a pew, but sitting around the dinner table. And they were demonstrated not just promoted.

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2 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

I doubt that those people know that they're testifying to mohammed being their true prophet, and that he chopped the heads off of over 500 men and forced their wives and children into rape-slavery. It makes the mosque attack look like child's play.

Those good old days :P

They are "lindsay lohan" style convert to Islam; I highly double that they are for real. 

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12 minutes ago, egghead said:

No way, religions have nothing to do morals and ethics. They are all add-on, andreligions did a poor job promoting them as well.

They have tons to do with morals and ethics. They did a great job of promoting them and continue to do so. Atheists have done a bad job of promoting them, but that doesn't mean atheists can't be moral or ethical. Just because you can learn morals and ethics elsewhere doesn't mean religion isn't a good source to learn morals and ethics from.

Edited by Yzermandius19
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17 minutes ago, marcus said:

No. Unfortunately, just like Argus, you also don't know what you're talking about when it comes to foreign workers and their effect on wages. If the medium salary in a position is at something specific, it doesn't matter how many foreign workers they bring in, they cannot be offering foreign workers a wage below that. So they cannot bring it down. 

Unfortunately not everyone abides by the awesome rules that you're talking about Marcus. Companies have new job openings all the time. People hire nannies and farm workers all the time. Contractors take on new employees all the time to paint, clean up jobsites, carry shingles up a ladder, cut grass, etc, etc, etc, all the time. They open up meat processing plants in areas where there are no other meat processing plants to compare the wages to.

Guess who they want to hire.... the guy who dropped out of high school and wants $20/hr and then you have payroll taxes and accounting fees on top of that, or the guy who just crossed the border illegally and would love $12/hr so he can feed his kids? 

In your perfect world that doesn't happen, but we're stuck here on earth. 

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3 minutes ago, egghead said:

Those good old days :P

They are "lindsay lohan" style convert to Islam; I highly double that they are for real. 

My favourite was when Madonna started getting all fired up about a Jewish mysticism/religion called Kabalah or something like that.

She was lamenting the fact that people who didn't take it seriously enough were just dabbling in it.

In a local newspaper here they had an article titled (paraphrasing) "MADONNA IS FURIOUS BECAUSE NEWCOMERS ARE DELEGITIMIZING KABALAH", and they had a huge picture of her on stage in her thong and her pointy, steel bra. That's still the funniest thing I've ever seen in a newspaper, by far.

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Hate to burst all yea religious bubbles, but Aristotle gave us what we know as classic ethics well before Christianity.

 http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/nicomachaen.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicomachean_Ethics

Edited by DogOnPorch
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34 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Religion didn't invent morals and ethics, but religion certainly promotes them, and does a damn good job of it too.

Yah, right. Catholics, Baptists, JW's, all other versions of the cult have horrendous records in promotion of morals and ethics. Thousands of clergy accused and convicted of child rape and other abuse. Wars, rapes, genocides, mutilations, promoting hatred amongst groups and other religions amongst other crimes against humanity. It is very moral to deny that all these things have taken place and are taking place as you read this. Same goes for ethics.  Try again. <_<

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1 minute ago, Realitycheck said:

Yah, right. Catholics, Baptists, JW's, all other versions of the cult have horrendous records in promotion of morals and ethics. Thousands of clergy accused and convicted of child rape and other abuse. Wars, rapes, genocides, mutilations, promoting hatred amongst groups and other religions amongst other crimes against humanity. It is very moral to deny that all these things have taken place and are taking place as you read this. Same goes for ethics.  Try again. <_<

No they have great records. Just because they committed some crimes like everyone else, religious or non-religious doesn't mean they a terrible record, you have compare them to other groups, not against a mythical standard that no group is ever going achieve.

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33 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

I haven't been obtuse about anything. You're just trying to prove your moral superiority over Christianity and you're intentionally ignorant to anything that challenges your belief.

Yes, people may show signs of altruism when they can, and no, Christianity and other religions didn't invent it, but humans are actually followers first and foremost. Have you ever heard the saying "Kill one man and you're a murderer, kill a million men and you're a hero"? That's a real thing. Alexander the Great didn't cure cancer. Ghengis and Kubilai Khan didn't need to rule over 100,000 square miles of the planet so badly that they needed to kill hundreds of thousands of people to do it. But they were leaders so people followed them. Killing other people to get loot and expand their power was their religion. 

People follow their tribes, their spiritual leaders, they pick their favourite news channel or they pick a religion or a political party or some combination of all those things and then they put on their blinders to everything else. "OOH Leonardo DiCaprio is so dreamy, and he flew all the way here on his private jet just to tell us that the oil sands suck! We need to boycott that oil NOW! Let's get our oil from Saudi Arabia and Nigeria instead! They can send tankers through the very same waterways that we are closing off to Alberta oil!" That honestly makes sense to some people. That's why they say truth is stranger than fiction. If I wrote a fictional novel about that people would utterly reject the notion, but it plays out exactly like that in real life because people - blindly - follow. "You can always convince one half of the poor people to kill the other half".

That's why I say that I am happy to see people finding good role models to follow. The average person won't choose a decent path in most circumstances.

1400 years of child and other abuse, murder rape, genocide, promoting wars in xianity alone is certainly a fine role model.<_<

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5 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

No they have great records. Just because they committed some crimes like everyone else, religious or non-religious doesn't mean they a terrible record, you have compare them to other groups, not against a mythical standard that no group is ever going achieve.

Ever heard of residential schools?

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5 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

No they have great records. Just because they committed some crimes like everyone else, religious or non-religious doesn't mean they a terrible record, you have compare them to other groups, not against a mythical standard that no group is ever going achieve.

"Some crimes"? :blink: What colour sand is that you have your head firmly planted in?

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Just now, Yzermandius19 said:

They have tons to do with morals and ethics. They did a great job of promoting them nnd continue to do so. Atheists have done a bad job of promoting them, but that doesn't mean atheists can't be moral or ethical.

It is because you are looking at the modern western world's religions (aka good religions). Religion just has a set of codes about how we should act. That set of codes may or may not have to do with the society moral and ethics. For instance, Muslims in England have Sharia courts :P

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1 hour ago, Realitycheck said:

The point you seem to be obtuse about is human enjoyed morals and ethics long before religions started taking credit for what is an innate human trait. Hell, Chimps and Elephants show more morality and empathy than many religious cults.

The Islamic position states that all animals follow their own set of natural law. In the end it is only our given revelation that allows us to choose which one of our ‘natural’ impulses are good, and which are bad. Atheism on the other hand, cannot produce objective morality, they are conformists, who adopt the morality of their host society as dogmas and mostly without question. 

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1 minute ago, Saudi Monitor said:

The Islamic position states that all animals follow their own set of natural law. In the end it is only our given revelation that allows us to choose which one of our ‘natural’ impulses are good, and which are bad. Atheism on the other hand, cannot produce objective morality, they are conformists, who adopt the morality of their host society as dogmas and mostly without question. 

 

Aristotle says you're wrong. His ethics have nothing to do with gods and other make-believe entities...like Allah....an Arabian version of a Zeus-like figure in the old Arabian panoply.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_pre-Islamic_Arabia 

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7 minutes ago, Saudi Monitor said:

The Islamic position states that all animals follow their own set of natural law. In the end it is only our given revelation that allows us to choose which one of our ‘natural’ impulses are good, and which are bad. Atheism on the other hand, cannot produce objective morality, they are conformists, who adopt the morality of their host society as dogmas and mostly without question. 

But that is mere primitive dogma, not fact. 

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2 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Yep. Existence of crimes committed by religious people is not proof that religion has a bad track record, you have to compare it to the alternatives, and when you do that, religion has a great track record.

Ever heard of the "European Wars of Religion."?

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13 minutes ago, egghead said:

It is because you are looking at the modern western world's religions (aka good religions). Religion just has a set of codes about how we should act. That set of codes may or may not have to do with the society moral and ethics. For instance, Muslims in England have Sharia courts :P

A lot of the people hating on religion in this thread are only looking at the negative examples of religion, I look at both, and the ledger says religion isn't an inherently negative concept, quite clearly.

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4 minutes ago, Owly said:

Ever heard of the "European Wars of Religion."?

Yep. Well aware of Catholics and Protestants going to war with each other throughout history. That is not proof that religion is inherently negative. It's not like they wouldn't have found other reasons to fight if they were all atheists.

Existence of war committed by religious people is not proof that religion has a bad track record, you have to compare it to the alternatives, and when you do that, religion has a great track record.

Edited by Yzermandius19
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