Should Canada Suspend Relations With China? -- Take Two

[Zeitgeist]

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-the-silver-lining-canadians-know-the-truth-about-the-ruthless-chinese/

It’s important that these detained Canadians remain front and centre in public consciousness.  China does indeed behave ruthlessly.  

Edited February 19, 2019 by Charles Anthony
typos

[Argus]

I can't say I have a whole lot of sympathy  for them myself. These were among the very people who lusted most after Chinese business, and who mocked, jeered and ridiculed any notion that we should keep China at arms length because it was a threat to us. Hell, one of them was making money running tourists into North Korea to the benefit of the North Korean government.

I definitely think we should be heavily increasing security around government and private sector computers, and hugely increasig monitoring of Chinese businessmen, student organizations, Chinese language media in Canada, and Chinese-Canadian politicians. We've already had warnings from CSIS about some of the latter being loyal to China, not Canada, and that all the Chinese language media in Canada are controlled by businessmen beholden to China. We need to track communications between these organizations and people and if necessary, revoke citizenship and deport people.

[bush_cheney2004]

6 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

It’s important that these detained Canadians remain front and centre in public consciousness.  China does indeed behave ruthlessly.  

 

Perhaps, but this is not an opportunity to pile on with every sob story from China.

The ruling government could have and should have exercised measures to gain their freedom long ago, but not for the foolish meth smuggler.

As for ruthlessness, there are far more Canadians imprisoned and executed by the United States, which apparently does it with a more acceptable "rule of law".

[Zeitgeist]

26 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Perhaps, but this is not an opportunity to pile on with every sob story from China.

The ruling government could have and should have exercised measures to gain their freedom long ago, but not for the foolish meth smuggler.

As for ruthlessness, there are far more Canadians imprisoned and executed by the United States, which apparently does it with a more acceptable "rule of law".

We should look more closely at whether and how many  Canadians are being unfairly treated in the US.  Good point.  

[Argus]

17 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

We should look more closely at whether and how many  Canadians are being unfairly treated in the US.  Good point.  

Canada doesn't give a damn about Canadians imprisoned abroad unless it becomes a media issue. It never has. The only countries that really put much effort into taking care of their citizens when they run afoul of foreign governments abroad are the British and the Israelis.

There are untold thousands of Americans in prisons around the world, too, and the US government couldn't care less.

Edited February 20, 2019 by Argus

[bush_cheney2004]

I have never understood the prevailing Canadian popular and legal expectation that Canadians who run afoul of the law in other nations should only be subjected to laws and sentences that would apply in Canada.

Where does that idea come from ?

[Zeitgeist]

On 2/19/2019 at 10:10 PM, bush_cheney2004 said:

I have never understood the prevailing Canadian popular and legal expectation that Canadians who run afoul of the law in other nations should only be subjected to laws and sentences that would apply in Canada.

Where does that idea come from ?

Interesting.  Then why should China respect US sanctions on Iran?   

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Interesting.  Then why should China respect US sanctions on Iran?   

 

China shouldn't respect any U.S. sanctions if it is not in China's interest to do so.

But steering back to Canada's beef over detained/imprisoned Canadians in China, what is the foundation for Canadians only being held to domestic law/sentences, regardless of the international jurisdiction where a crime has been committed ?

Does anybody know where this comes from ?

[Zeitgeist]

2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

China shouldn't respect any U.S. sanctions if it is not in China's interest to do so.

But steering back to Canada's beef over detained/imprisoned Canadians in China, what is the foundation for Canadians only being held to domestic law/sentences, regardless of the international jurisdiction where a crime has been committed ?

Does anybody know where this comes from ?

One of the main reasons we maintain embassies and consulates is to ensure that our nationals are protected according to our laws and values, where possible.  This is also why we seek extradition.  Oh yeah remember that recent extradition request from the US, whereupon American law is applied not only to Americans but also foreign nationals?  Don’t play coy. 

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

One of the main reasons we maintain embassies and consulates is to ensure that our nationals are protected according to our laws and values, where possible.  This is also why we seek extradition.  Oh yeah remember that recent extradition request from the US, whereupon American law is applied not only to Americans but also foreign nationals?  Don’t play coy. 

 

Look, if you don't know the legal foundation just say so.    Maybe somebody else does.   It's probably a Charter Rights thing.

If Meng violated U.S. laws with U.S. banks, then she gets her day in court.  

Edited February 21, 2019 by bush_cheney2004

[Argus]

13 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

One of the main reasons we maintain embassies and consulates is to ensure that our nationals are protected according to our laws and values, where possible.  This is also why we seek extradition.  Oh yeah remember that recent extradition request from the US, whereupon American law is applied not only to Americans but also foreign nationals?  Don’t play coy. 

The purpose of our embassies is to deal, country to country, with the places they're located, on issues as broad as trade or security. They have nothing to do with Canadians abroad.

The purpose of consulates is to provide assistance to Canadians who become ill, or lose their passports or documents, and also to deal with requests from local citizens for various types of visas to Canada. They also deal with local trade issues. If a Canadian is arrested, the most they'll do is provide a list of local attorneys. They won't hire or pay for them. Technically, they will be able to visit the prisoner to see they aren't being mistreated (by local standards) but don't expect the government of Canada to take any action if they are - unless it gets to be a media thing. The government, like almost every other government, puts their relationship with the foreign government in question on a far higher level than what happens to some insignificant citizen.

[eyeball]

Quote

Should Canada Suspend Relations With China? -- Take Two

Canada should suspend relations with all dictatorships. My grandparents generation sacrificed 25% of Canada's GDP in their fight against tyranny.

I suspect many would be aghast at how much our economy is now dependant on tyrannies and how far we're willing to go to maintain our 'market share'. 

Edited February 25, 2019 by eyeball

[GostHacked]

10 hours ago, eyeball said:

Canada should suspend relations with all dictatorships. My grandparents generation sacrificed 25% of Canada's GDP in their fight against tyranny.

I suspect many would be aghast at how much our economy is now dependant on tyrannies and how far we're willing to go to maintain our 'market share'. 

This I can get behind.  Every time we deal with problematic nations, it means we have to bend our rules, our morals, our identity to accommodate what ever it is for the notion of 'trade'. 

[Rue]

On ‎2‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 12:22 PM, Argus said:

The purpose of our embassies is to deal, country to country, with the places they're located, on issues as broad as trade or security. They have nothing to do with Canadians abroad.

 

Embassies absolutely have the role of safeguarding the rights of Canada and Canadian citizens and interests in the country they operate and this includes:

1-establishing and renewing passports and other official documents

2- reporting Births, Deaths, Marriages, Divorces, Adoptions etc. happened in the host country to the competent authorities back in Canada

3-helping Canadian citizens in distress or other emergency situations.

4-looking after Canadians  in detention or arrest and to watch over the rule of law and fair trials.

As well due to our membership in the British Commonwealth, the United Kingdom steps in as our government representative through its embassy in the applicable country overseas if we have no Canadian embassy in that country but the UK does.

 We also have the same agreement with Australia where we look after each other's citizens where one of us does not have an embassy in the country abroad but the other does.

There is in fact a government web-site explaining some of these services at: https://travel.gc.ca/assistance

We have a registration service that allows embassies to track you overseas in the event of a disaster: https://travel.gc.ca/travelling/registration

 

 

.

 

 

 

[Argus]

1 hour ago, Rue said:

Embassies absolutely have the role of safeguarding the rights of Canada and Canadian citizens and interests in the country they operate and this includes:

1-establishing and renewing passports and other official documents

2- reporting Births, Deaths, Marriages, Divorces, Adoptions etc. happened in the host country to the competent authorities back in Canada

3-helping Canadian citizens in distress or other emergency situations.

4-looking after Canadians  in detention or arrest and to watch over the rule of law and fair trials.

None of that are the responsibility of an embassy. Those are consulate responsibilities.

 

[Army Guy]

13 hours ago, GostHacked said:

This I can get behind.  Every time we deal with problematic nations, it means we have to bend our rules, our morals, our identity to accommodate what ever it is for the notion of 'trade'. 

One would think that life would become that more easier right. But it also brings up a couple of questions like how many jobs here in Canada are dependent on foreign trade ? , lets talk about the elephant in the room "China"....that pretty much makes everything in the world, and why is that, big fat Canadians companies like the color of money as well, so much that they move jobs and industry to china to make billions more, how do you have these guys move all that back ? ....So my last question how much are we willing  to pay for our rules, morals, and values ? ..... do we keep todays status quo, or risk it all to feel good about ourselves…. last time I checked feeling good does not pay the bills nor does it feed our families.

[eyeball]

14 hours ago, Army Guy said:

So my last question how much are we willing  to pay for our rules, morals, and values ?

Anything less than what our grandparents paid would be a dishonor to them.

But lets have it your way....the questions then are why should I behave any better than a corporate CEO or dictator in the business of filling his boots?  Why should I give a shit about rules, morals, and values? 

 

[GostHacked]

On 2/25/2019 at 5:06 PM, Rue said:

Embassies absolutely have the role of safeguarding the rights of Canada and Canadian citizens and interests in the country they operate and this includes:

1-establishing and renewing passports and other official documents

2- reporting Births, Deaths, Marriages, Divorces, Adoptions etc. happened in the host country to the competent authorities back in Canada

3-helping Canadian citizens in distress or other emergency situations.

4-looking after Canadians  in detention or arrest and to watch over the rule of law and fair trials.

All that seems fine in nations we have good relations with. But would be more needed in nations we do not have good relations with.

[GostHacked]

21 hours ago, Army Guy said:

One would think that life would become that more easier right. But it also brings up a couple of questions like how many jobs here in Canada are dependent on foreign trade ? , lets talk about the elephant in the room "China"....that pretty much makes everything in the world, and why is that, big fat Canadians companies like the color of money as well, so much that they move jobs and industry to china to make billions more, how do you have these guys move all that back ? ....So my last question how much are we willing  to pay for our rules, morals, and values ? ..... do we keep todays status quo, or risk it all to feel good about ourselves…. last time I checked feeling good does not pay the bills nor does it feed our families.

That elephant was brought up and raised by North American corps looking for cheaper labour and getting in bed with nations that treat their citizens like absolute shit. ... and you seem to understand that.  So now do we blame China for all this? Or can we blame companies like , Apple, Dell, Lenovo, most electronics, a lot of clothes. 

If you are not willing to pay one cent more for a Canadian made product, then you have your answer.

 

[Army Guy]

On 2/26/2019 at 6:55 PM, GostHacked said:

That elephant was brought up and raised by North American corps looking for cheaper labour and getting in bed with nations that treat their citizens like absolute shit. ... and you seem to understand that.  So now do we blame China for all this? Or can we blame companies like , Apple, Dell, Lenovo, most electronics, a lot of clothes. 

If you are not willing to pay one cent more for a Canadian made product, then you have your answer.

 

I think the north American people are just to blame as the corps....people don't give a rats ass if children working 20 hours a day in deplorable conditions to make their favorite jeans cheaper.....they want their stuff for the cheapest price.....it is what our market is based on, hard to lecture about human rights and good morals and values when you break it down we never had them in the first place....Our world is turned by the green back nothing else....

[Army Guy]

On 2/26/2019 at 12:18 PM, eyeball said:

Anything less than what our grandparents paid would be a dishonor to them.

But lets have it your way....the questions then are why should I behave any better than a corporate CEO or dictator in the business of filling his boots?  Why should I give a shit about rules, morals, and values? 

 

Then stop bitching about it....and get on board the train....

[Argus]

2 hours ago, Army Guy said:

I think the north American people are just to blame as the corps....people don't give a rats ass if children working 20 hours a day in deplorable conditions to make their favorite jeans cheaper.....they want their stuff for the cheapest price.....it is what our market is based on, hard to lecture about human rights and good morals and values when you break it down we never had them in the first place....Our world is turned by the green back nothing else....

There's an element of paternalism here.  These are independent countries operating under their own rules and laws. We're supposed to stop dealing with them because we think they don't pay people enough or don't have good enough safety rules or employ underage children or pollute the environment as if what? As if we're in charge and are responsible for the lifestyles, safety and health of their people? And if we withdrew all these jobs would that make life better or would those people doing them then have to dig through garbage dumps for food or do something worse?

[Zeitgeist]

42 minutes ago, Argus said:

There's an element of paternalism here.  These are independent countries operating under their own rules and laws. We're supposed to stop dealing with them because we think they don't pay people enough or don't have good enough safety rules or employ underage children or pollute the environment as if what? As if we're in charge and are responsible for the lifestyles, safety and health of their people? And if we withdrew all these jobs would that make life better or would those people doing them then have to dig through garbage dumps for food or do something worse?

If we had minimum international standards for labour, many of these people would still have jobs, but better working conditions and wages, as well as more balanced trade that doesn’t offshore so much North American production. 

[eyeball]

7 hours ago, Army Guy said:

Then stop bitching about it....and get on board the train....

I think you must be responding to someone else.

[Argus]

19 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

If we had minimum international standards for labour, many of these people would still have jobs, but better working conditions and wages, as well as more balanced trade that doesn’t offshore so much North American production. 

And who is going to impose these minimum standards on independent countries? And by what means? Are you going to put sanctions on impoverished countries like Bangladesh if they don't unionize their workforce and pay higher wages?