Is bin Laden Winning?

[mirror]

Taking Stock of the Forever War

Lost at Tora Bora

This is what really boggles my mind. At one point they had bin Laden on the ropes in Afghanistan and they went into Iraq instead. Great strategy!

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear mirror,

Is bin Laden Winning?

No. Mind you, neither is the US. I did not read the links, (I don't plan to subscribe to the NYT) but the US bungled the 'hunt for Osama' since day one. Actually, since Sept 12/2001, the Bush admin set it's sights on Saddam and Iraq.

Bin Laden and his ilk have stated their objectives, those being primarily; an end to the US support of dictatorial regimes that oppress Muslims (such as the Sauds, the Chinese gov't, etc), a withdrawl of US forces from the Saudi peninsula, and the end of US military support for Israel against Palestinians. None of these has come to pass, so no, he is not 'winning'.

At one point they had bin Laden on the ropes in Afghanistan

They never did, reallly. There were weeks of delay before moving in on Al-qaeda in Afghanistan, and most of the 'terrorists' had moved on, leaving behind a token force. Former pres. Clinton came closer to eliminating Osama (with a couple of cruise missile strikes and some aborted plans with armed drones) than the current admin.

[Montgomery Burns]

Capturing or whacking Osama would be nice but it is not as important as some seem to think. The naive seem to think that as soon as Osama is caught, the War on Terror ends, and the Islamofascists will immediately drop their arms and go out and get jobs as insurance adjustors or computer programmers.

As President Bush has repeatedly said, this will be a long war against Radical Islam. Osama has made it clear that he wants to establish a worldwide Wahhabi version of Islam and kill everyone who won't knuckle under. And the appeasers who submit to Osama will live a life of Dhimmitude. He also named 5 countries on his hitlist; USA, UK, Spain, Australia and Canada. He does not seem to like countries like Canada supporting dictators for the blood money they take to prop up their vast social programs.

The Bush administration correctly realized that Iraq was the key to the War on Terror. By toppling a dictator that had broken every law in the book, they knew they would have the support of the American public. They knew that a democratic Iraq would be a beacon of light in the Mid East. They also knew that Al Qaeda would be attracted to the US being in their old stomping grounds (Afghanistan and Iraq) like a moth to a bright light. They cannot resist the fact that the US is in Afghanistan and Iraq. Better to fight them gathered in the ME than on the streets of America. Indeed, Al Zarqawi has said that Iraq is the key to winning the War on Terror. If they lose Iraq, and they will/have, it is a terrible blow to their Wahhabi ideology.

Sadly, the far-left has been steadfast against winning the War on Terror. Indeed, the first "anti-war" (actually pro-terrorist) crowd had their first protest on Sept 20/2001; nine days after 3000 innocents (including 24 Canadians) were murdered by Islamofascists.

Sept 20, 2001: Anti-war/pro-terrorist rally in New York

[crazymf]

Not to mention that Bin Laden is good press, keeping the spirit well motivated at home.

I'll make a prediction that Bin Laden will be caught at a time of strategic political importance.

I know that's vague, but not really if you think about it. Either the CIA has him stashed or is actually still funding him, using him as a political figurehead so the USA can go after the really bad guys that are not publicised.

Ok, back to the facts, hehe.

[mirror]

Dear theloniusfleabag

Some people think that bin Laden may already be dead, possiblt the results of the bombing that took place in the Tora Bora region. I mean do we actually have any concrete proof he is still around?

And concerning that so-called hit list that included Canada, the authenticity of that tape apparently has been discredited.

Al Qaeda video serves new warning to the U.S.

Cheers

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Montgomery Burns,

Capturing or whacking Osama would be nice but it is not as important as some seem to think

True. It would be a tremendous boost to US morale, though, as long as he is executed before he is allowed to speak.

. Osama has made it clear that he wants to establish a worldwide Wahhabi version of Islam and kill everyone who won't knuckle under.

Wrong. Where did you hear this?

The Bush administration correctly realized that Iraq was the key to the War on Terror. By toppling a dictator that had broken every law in the book, they knew they would have the support of the American public

Wrong on both counts, unless you are claiming that putting US troops into any country in the ME would have attracted the 'Islamofascists' ( like 'moths to a light', which would not be entirely incorrect).

Dear mirror,

I mean do we actually have any concrete proof he is still around?

Yes, there has been credible (according to CIA, and other, analysts) reports of recent Osama tapes and statements.

[cybercoma]

I wouldn't at all be surprised to find out many years from now that Bin Laden is non-existant, instead an entity created by the government as a public opinion swaying icon to fuel the American economy/job creation program we call war.

[masterkush]

Dear mirror,

Bin Laden and his ilk have stated their objectives, those being primarily; an end to the US support of dictatorial regimes that oppress Muslims (such as the Sauds, the Chinese gov't, etc), a withdrawl of US forces from the Saudi peninsula, and the  end of US military support for Israel against Palestinians. None of these has come to pass, so no, he is not 'winning'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

binladen won the war already

hes not been captured

America still rages a war with a third world country that had nothing to do with 9/11 ,that has some how made america pay trillions of dollars on

America is less safe because of it today

and if the loss of money ,time , lives ,are not enough

Bin laden knows time his on his side

he knows that like a thief in the night there will be another WMD in America

and in allprobability 30 years of more wmds

Binladen knows that Americans live in fear of that day

he knows americans lost freedom since the WTC disposals

and he knows americans will clutch on to duct t6ape and plastic and practice duck and cover drills for the rest if america's populations lives

did he win hell yeah

he has gotten America into a finacial jam

and he bides his time waiting to strike

furthermore

he has demonstrated that both america and britain are very easy targets

Bush turned plunder in IRAQ into blunder in IRAQ

[newbie]

I wouldn't at all be surprised to find out many years from now that Bin Laden is non-existant, instead an entity created by the government as a public opinion swaying icon to fuel the American economy/job creation program we call war.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Either that or Dubya doesn't want him caught. We all know that since the evil empire Russia poses no more threat, U.S. needed a new enemy to fuel the war machine.

[Shady]

I wouldn't at all be surprised to find out many years from now that Bin Laden is non-existant, instead an entity created by the government as a public opinion swaying icon to fuel the American economy/job creation program we call war

Yeah, that seems plausible.

[Toro]

Stratfor is saying that American intelligence is beginning to believe bin Laden may be dead.

http:///www.stratfor.com

[cgarrett]

if bin laden is caught... then the us wins the war on terror! oh, except that that is not exactly the idea in the first place... they would have to make up a new war wouldn't they? to make some excuse for the protection or expansion of u.s. 'interests'.

like the 'cold war' or the 'war on drugs' or some other forever war...

the new american empire is like all of the other empires before.

history is cyclical with new players. just look at the history of rome or england for a look into the future.

these powerful empires expand beyond their borders in ever increasing circles of manipulation and control driven by the greed of those who benefit the most and eventually bankrupt the empire attempting to maintain such a position. its never a sustainable position.

[PocketRocket]

"Forever War" Good handle.

No one "wins" a war like this. As long as the enemy is a faceless group without a country, there can be no definitive victory.

[Black Dog]

Obviously, some folks haven't got the memo. Bin Laden is old news, man. LikeWilliam Huung, he was a one-hit wonder. It's all about the Zarqawi these days. And, once he outlives his usefulness, some other villain will pop up.

The annals of U.S. foreign policy over the last few decades read like a crappy B movie serial or a comic book. You have your hero (usually a tough-talkin' U.S president based onthe old cowboy archetype) and you have your villain (always some swarthy types from some place the average American doesn't no buger all about: think Castro, the Sandistas, Noreiga, Qaddafi, Saddam Hussein, Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein again and Zarqawi). None of the villains ever pose a real threat to the United States (and thus are easily whupped by the hero), but are simply props trotted out to scare the populace and keep them tying yellow ribbons to their car aeriels instead of looking at the monsters in their own backyard. The twist tis time is that they've found someone elusive enough and mysterious enough that they can bring him out whenever they please, even if he is (in all likelyhood) a pile of bones mouldering away in a cave somewhere.

[newbie]

You nailed it Black Dog.

[tml12]

Obviously, some folks haven't got the memo. Bin Laden is old news, man. LikeWilliam Huung, he was a one-hit wonder. It's all about the Zarqawi these days. And, once he outlives his usefulness, some other villain will pop up.

The annals of U.S. foreign policy over the last few decades read like a crappy B movie serial or a comic book. You have your hero (usually a tough-talkin' U.S president based onthe old cowboy archetype) and you have your villain (always some swarthy types from some place the average American doesn't no buger all about: think Castro, the Sandistas, Noreiga, Qaddafi, Saddam Hussein, Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein again and Zarqawi). None of the villains ever pose a real threat to the United States (and thus are easily whupped by the hero), but are simply props trotted out to scare the populace and keep them tying yellow ribbons to their car aeriels instead of looking at the monsters in their own backyard. The twist tis time is that they've found someone elusive enough and mysterious enough that they can bring him out whenever they please, even if he is (in all likelyhood) a pile of bones mouldering away in a cave somewhere.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Generally BD, I agree but I am not so sure about bin laden.

After all, he was responsible for 9-11, right?

The others we are defintely on the same page about (although try explaining that to Americans).

[Montgomery Burns]

tml12:

Generally BD, I agree but I am not so sure about bin laden.

After all, he was responsible for 9-11, right?

What? Bush was responsible for 9-11. America, and especially Bush, are to blame for everything wrong in this world. Didn't you get the memo?

Just yesterday, I cursed out Bush as a car drove by and kicked up a stone--chipping the windshield of my truck. If only Bush hadn't given those taxcuts to only the rich...

Damn you Bush! :angry:

[Black Dog]

US losing war on terror

Despite an early victory over the Taliban and al Qaeda in Afghanistan, the two former Clinton administration officials say President George W. Bush's policies have created a new haven for terrorism in Iraq that escalates the potential for Islamic violence against Europe and the United States.

[Black Dog]

The “Miracle” or a Mockery of Afghanistan?

The US started the fracas by not replacing religious tyranny with democracy, by not relying on the people, but rather by siding with the NA, the very worst enemies of our people. It goes without saying that Afghans will not see as their “liberators” those who drove the Taliban wolves through one door and unchained the rabid dogs of the NA through another.

It's always interesting to hear abouthow things are going in place sliek Afghanistan from the people who are there (RAWA - the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan - was one of the most vocal groups speaking out against the Taliban back when no one was listening).

[sharkman]

RAWA sounds like a pretty radical group, it's hard to know which source one finds might have an objective clear view of what's going on in Afghanistan or wherever.

On the bigger question of Bin Laden, I think he has been able to create a new norm where a major city occasionally gets bombed and they can't quite prevent it. Even Spain, after agreeing to withdraw from Iraq was hit. I don't think it will ever end. These rabid sickos believe they have their god's blessing to do this and if a person wants to kill some people badly enough, you really can't stop him or her.

I'm surprised that the U.S. hasn't been hit again, though. Surely they have people inbedded in various parts of the country. It's been 4 years, and I can't believe that the U.S. is solely responsible for the absense of more domestic attacks.

[Black Dog]

RAWA sounds like a pretty radical group, it's hard to know which source one finds might have an objective clear view of what's going on in Afghanistan or wherever.

RAWA has been at the forefront of the campaign for human rights in Afghanistan since the Osama bin Laden was fighting the Soviets. They oppossed the Soviet-supported communist regime, the Taliban and now the depravity of the "democratic" government of Karazi: what is it about them that makes you discount their objectivity?

[sharkman]

The article you linked to made me doubt their objectivity. Lots of hate, obviously only representing one faction of Afghanistan. I wonder why they didn't meet with those like Diane Tebelius while she was in Iraq, and instead write a critique to her article. You say they've been around since the Russians were in Afghanistan? It must have been rough under the Taliban, being women, I can't imagine they were able to do much in their organization's behalf during all those years. And now they are free to complain, welcome to the voting process!

You could probably get 50 different view points from factions of Afghanistan, and none of them would agree. To hold one up as the objective truth would be the same as only listening to the U.S. version. It's definitely a rough place that is a long way from true democracy. The people have been living under dictatorships and totalitarianism so this new kind of government is quite hard to comprehend. It could take decades. Maybe it won't take at all.

[Black Dog]

The article you linked to made me doubt their objectivity. Lots of hate, obviously only representing one faction of Afghanistan.

Yeah: anti-fundamentalists. A small faction in today's Afghanistan, to be sure...

You say they've been around since the Russians were in Afghanistan? It must have been rough under the Taliban, being women, I can't imagine they were able to do much in their organization's behalf during all those years. And now they are free to complain, welcome to the voting process!

About RAWA

RAWA, the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan, was established in Kabul, Afghanistan, in 1977 as an independent political/social organization of Afghan women fighting for human rights and for social justice in Afghanistan. The founders were a number of Afghan woman intellectuals under the sagacious leadership of Meena who in 1987 was assassinated in Quetta, Pakistan, by Afghan agents of the then KGB in connivance with fundamentalist band of Gulbuddin Hekmatyar . RAWA’s objective was to involve an increasing number of Afghan women in social and political activities aimed at acquiring women’s human rights and contributing to the struggle for the establishment of a government based on democratic and secular values in Afghanistan. Despite the suffocating political atmosphere, RAWA very soon became involved in widespread activities in different socio-political arenas including education, health and income generation as well as political agitation.

You could probably get 50 different view points from factions of Afghanistan, and none of them would agree. To hold one up as the objective truth would be the same as only listening to the U.S. version. It's definitely a rough place that is a long way from true democracy. The people have been living under dictatorships and totalitarianism so this new kind of government is quite hard to comprehend. It could take decades. Maybe it won't take at all.

You're clearly missing the point. Afghanistan's problems social problems and totalitarian tendancies have a lot to do with the culture. You can't just go in, hld elections and slap together a constitution and expect democracy to take without addressing those cultural issues.

As the web page above states:

The US "War on terrorism" removed the Taliban regime in October 2001, but it has not removed religious fundamentalism which is the main cause of all our miseries. In fact, by reinstalling the warlords in power in Afghanistan, the US administration is replacing one fundamentalist regime with another. The US government and Mr.Karzai mostly rely on Northern Alliance criminal leaders who are as brutal and misogynist as the Taliban.

[sharkman]

(Blackdog quote) You're clearly missing the point. Afghanistan's problems social problems and totalitarian tendancies have a lot to do with the culture. You can't just go in, hld elections and slap together a constitution and expect democracy to take without addressing those cultural issues. (/quote)

That's why I commented:

It's definitely a rough place that is a long way from true democracy. The people have been living under dictatorships and totalitarianism so this new kind of government is quite hard to comprehend. It could take decades. Maybe it won't take at all. (/quote)

At any rate I'm sure you'd agree that Afghanis need to live in a country of peace. How they might be able to achieve that is the hard part. Maybe RAWA has all the answers, but I remain unconvinced, anymore than the U.S. has all the answers.

[moderateamericain]

has afghanistan in all its years of history ever known 10 years of peace? (non-rhetorical question)

TO the OP question did Bin laden win?

well let me ask you this. Would you want to run from shit hole to shit hole hiding place for the rest of your life, knowing that if your caught not only will you be executed by flaunted like some kind of play thing?

I dunno about you but thats not my idea of a "win"