The case for a change to Canada's Immigration

[dialamah]

1 minute ago, Argus said:

Aren't some Muslims goat herders, barbaric, ignorant and misogynistic?

Sure.  Albeit, maybe not so many goat herders as previously. 

Your mistake is that you apply those terms to virtually all Muslims and if anyone suggests any redeeming quality related to Muslims, you reject it.  Case in point:  Egyptian government uses Islamic teachings, including quoting Mohammed, to encourage Muslims to treat Christians with respect.  Your response?  "Too bad its not true."  As if you know everything taught by Islam, which you do not.  And why would you even want to deny an Islamic government encouraging civility between Muslims and Christians; that makes no sense at all, especially given how often you bring up issues between Muslims and Christians as a way of denigrating Islamic countries and Muslims.  

[Argus]

40 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Sure.  Albeit, maybe not so many goat herders as previously. 

Your mistake is that you apply those terms to virtually all Muslims

No. Your mistake is presuming I do. Certainly I tend to dismiss rural third world people as 'goat herders' which indicates that they have little in the way of marketable job skills in Canada. I believe I first employed the term with regard to Trudeau's Syrians after Matthew Hill's column which pointed out that these are not the city dwellers with the cell phones who made their way to Europe, but largely poor, rural people who had nothing.

With regard to misogyny, well, this is just a reflection of your belief that few Muslims really believe what their religion says about the unequal treatment of women, despite what they say to polls and despite what all their nations do, and the laws and cultures and values they grow up with.

40 minutes ago, dialamah said:

and if anyone suggests any redeeming quality related to Muslims, you reject it.  Case in point:  Egyptian government uses Islamic teachings, including quoting Mohammed, to encourage Muslims to treat Christians with respect.  Your response?  "Too bad its not true." 

The Egyptian government is a brutal dictatorship. Any body employed by the government will say what the government wants it to. But even a casual perusal of the Koran and accompanying hadiths will recognize that befriending unbelievers is something the Muslim religion does not welcome.  Non-Muslims are treated badly everywhere throughout the Muslim world, including Egypt, where Christian churches are routinely attacked and Christians murdered with little concern shown by the government, which itself actively discriminates against Christians. This seems to me to be nothing more than an attempt to convince western governments, principally the US, that egypt really does love Christians. Oh yes, it really does! Pay no attention to those bodies!

 

[Argus]

Progressives all want to be so kindly to and welcome 'irregular migrants' but none of them have to pay the price for it.

1: The huge number of refugees occupying shelter beds have forced some homeless into low-barrier (respite) shelters, which are nothing more than costly warehouses, and 2: The city has been pouring so much money into trying to accommodate refugees and asylum seekers that I fear little is left for mental health, affordable housing and job supports for the rest of the homeless population.

 

https://torontosun.com/news/local-news/levy-street-count-proves-refugees-taking-huge-toll-on-shelters

Edited December 28, 2018 by Argus

[dialamah]

11 hours ago, Argus said:

The Egyptian government is a brutal dictatorship. Any body employed by the government will say what the government wants it to. But even a casual perusal of the Koran and accompanying hadiths will recognize that befriending unbelievers is something the Muslim religion does not welcome.  Non-Muslims are treated badly everywhere throughout the Muslim world, including Egypt, where Christian churches are routinely attacked and Christians murdered with little concern shown by the government, which itself actively discriminates against Christians. This seems to me to be nothing more than an attempt to convince western governments, principally the US, that egypt really does love Christians. Oh yes, it really does! Pay no attention to those bodies!

This kind of thing is exactly why I call you a bigot.  Many religions advise their adherents to avoid unbelievers; be friendly, they say - but do not become close.  Islam isn't particularly unusual in that regard.  Nonetheless, Muslims befriend non-believers, just as Christians befriend non-believers.  Using a practice common among all religions to condemn Muslims alone is bigotry.

That a majority treats a minority within it's country poorly is hardly behavior limited to Islamic countries:  consider how Canada has treated aboriginals. When I read about the way in which Christians in Egypt face casual social and official discrimination in their day-to-day life, I am reminded of how similarly we have treated our native population for as long as I've been alive.   Using that kind of discrimination to condemn all Muslims, while ignoring or dismissing the exact same behavior in your own country is bigotry.

Are you as equally concerned about the persecution Muslims in Myanmar or China as you are about persecution of Christians in Egypt?    

Nobody denies that there are extremist, violent fundamentalists among Muslims who target Christians or anyone who doesn't follow their version of Islam.  Using extremists as the definition of Islam or Muslims is as stupid as using the Westboro Baptist Church to define Christianity and Christians.   That you take the most extreme and lurid examples of Muslim behavior as representative of all Muslims, and dismiss any effort by individuals, groups or even a government, to use whatever teachings available within Islam to bring Islam into the modern world and a more progressive interpretation is your bigotry.  That you deny a woman wearing an hijab could be gay or accept gays is your bigotry.  That you tell me I'm being lied to when told my brother-in-law refuses to have an abusive husband in his home is your bigotry.  You allow yourself only one view of Muslims:  violent, hateful, backward, ignorant, misogynistic and you actively fight against someone having any other view.  That's bigotry.   It's no different than the Muslim bigotry that inspires discrimination against Christians in Egypt.  It's ugly and it's not representative of Canadians in general.  Nor is the person who shot to death Muslims while they prayed - even though Muslim bigots in Egypt would no doubt use that incident to 'prove' that Canadians hate and want to kill Muslims.

Before you, or anyone, goes off the rails claiming I said or believe "there are no bad Muslims" , please note the times I have acknowledged violence by Muslims, extremists within the Muslim world, discrimination against Christians in Egypt.  Seeing both sides, good and bad, is a reasonable viewpoint.  Seeing only one side is not.

[DogOnPorch]

2 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Many religions advise their adherents to avoid unbelievers; be friendly, they say - but do not become close.  Islam isn't particularly unusual in that regard.  Nonetheless, Muslims befriend non-believers, just as Christians befriend non-believers.  Using a practice common among all religions to condemn Muslims alone is bigotry.

Let not believers take disbelievers as allies rather than believers. And whoever [of you] does that has nothing with Allah, except when taking precaution against them in prudence. And Allah warns you of Himself, and to Allah is the [final] destination.

Quran 3 28

https://quran.com/3/28

 

Can you post the passages from these other religion's holy books that tell adherents to stay away from so-called unbelievers? Or are you unable?

[DogOnPorch]

O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.

Quran 5 51

https://quran.com/5/51

[Michael Hardner]

12 hours ago, Argus said:

Progressives all want to be so kindly to and welcome 'irregular migrants' but none of them have to pay the price for it.

 https://torontosun.com/news/local-news/levy-street-count-proves-refugees-taking-huge-toll-on-shelters

Unfortunately we can no longer rely on The Sun for reporting the truth, given the charges levelled at Levy.  They have gone from FOX-bias to Rebel-lies.  You'll have to find another source if you want reasonable people to buy into this.

[dialamah]

35 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

Can you post the passages from these other religion's holy books that tell adherents to stay away from so-called unbelievers? Or are you unable?

Here's an entire Christian sermon, including backup Biblical references.  Final message:

If, for the sake of preserving our relationship with God, we break off, limit or prevent a human relationship in our lives, God will more than compensate for this faithfulness. “So Jesus answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel’s, who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time…’” Mark 10:29-30.

Edited December 28, 2018 by dialamah

[DogOnPorch]

2 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Here's an entire Christian sermon, including backup Biblical references.  Final message:

If, for the sake of preserving our relationship with God, we break off, limit or prevent a human relationship in our lives, God will more than compensate for this faithfulness. “So Jesus answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel’s, who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time…’” Mark 10:29-30.

 

That doesn't say that Christians aren't allowed to take non-Christians as friends. It says quite the opposite, in fact.

The Quran implicitly states the Muslims are NOT to take the Jews and Christians as friends by NAME. 

 

[DogOnPorch]

As well...the sermon you used...and let's be clear...it's a sermon...didn't end as you claimed...it ended....

“Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.”

That is: lead by example...

[dialamah]

14 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

That doesn't say that Christians aren't allowed to take non-Christians as friends. It says quite the opposite, in fact.

The Quran implicitly states the Muslims are NOT to take the Jews and Christians as friends by NAME. 

The message from the Christian leader is the same:  non-believers are a threat to your faith.  Saying its "the opposite" is a lie.  

By the way, here is advice to Muslims, backed up by the very words of Allah, to be friends with non-believers.

A Muslim is allowed to take non-Muslims for acquaintances and friends, to be sincere towards them and they be sincere towards him, to help one another in fulfilling the needs of this life. Almighty Allah has said in His noble Book:

“Allah does not forbid you in regard to those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice.” (60:8)

[dialamah]

10 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

As well...the sermon you used...and let's be clear...it's a sermon...didn't end as you claimed...it ended....

“Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.”

That is: lead by example...

The gist of the sermon and the use of those biblical passages is to tell Christoans to avoid non-believers.  I lived that life for seven years, being actively discouraged from befriending wordly people (non-believers) and encouraged to limit contact with my family.  So take your lies and Islamophobia and insert them where the sun don't shine. 

[DogOnPorch]

10 minutes ago, dialamah said:

The gist of the sermon and the use of those biblical passages is to tell Christoans to avoid non-believers.  I lived that life for seven years, being actively discouraged from befriending wordly people (non-believers) and encouraged to limit contact with my family.  So take your lies and Islamophobia and insert them where the sun don't shine. 

 

It's by no means an order from Allah.

[Charles Anthony]

Forgive me!   I did not see this was Argus' forum. 

Enjoy! 

[Goddess]

21 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I lived that life for seven years, being actively discouraged from befriending wordly people (non-believers) and encouraged to limit contact with my family.

Yes, except the JW's are just a small cult of about 11 million members worldwide with a lot of other wonky beliefs......not quite the same effect as a dominant religion with over a billion members being told the same thing.

I was married into a very large family of staunch Catholics for over 20 years and never once heard any of them say they couldn't be friends with non-Catholics.  I also went to school with a Muslim woman whose husband followed her around between classes, making sure she didn't befriend any of the rest of us.  

So don't make out like Christianity is all about NOT making friends with  un-believers.  We all know who the real liar is here.

Edited December 28, 2018 by Goddess

[dialamah]

35 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

It's by no means an order from Allah.

As much as Allah is God in any other language, it is indeed instructions from God as far as these Christians are concerned.

29 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I also went to school with a Muslim woman whose husband followed her around between classes, making sure she didn't befriend any of the rest of us.  

My sister held a job in Egypt for several years.  She travelled to and from work on public transit, unaccompanied by any male family member.  She spoke of one woman in her workplace whose husband or another male family member, accompanied her to work and remained there all day.   She was unusual there.  So don't go making out like Muslim women everywhere are followed around by their husbands, because that would be a lie.

29 minutes ago, Goddess said:

So don't make out like Christianity is all about NOT making friends with  un-believers. 

I spend years debating with Evangelical Christians and most of them held the belief that avoiding non-believers, other than to prosletyze, was their duty.  I don't think such a viewpoint is unusual in Christianity, but I also don't think it describes the majority.   Unlike DoP does with Muslims, I do not take a single belief of some Christians and apply it to all Christians, frantically insisting that is the only possible interpretation.

29 minutes ago, Goddess said:

So don't make out like Christianity is all about NOT making friends with  un-believers. 

But you let DoP make out like Islam is all about not making friends with unbelievers, when its equally clear that both viewpoints are held and promoted, same as in Christianity.   

Funny how you've convinced yourself that DoP's one-sided and extremist version of Islam is correct and reasonable, and constantly attack me for presenting a more moderate version of Islam.  Who is lying, eh?  Someone who sees both extremists and moderates as part of Islam, or someone who will only allow extremists to be Muslim?

Edited December 28, 2018 by dialamah

[Goddess]

6 minutes ago, dialamah said:

 

But you let DoP make out like Islam is all about not making friends with unbelievers, when its equally clear that both viewpoints are held and promoted, same as in Christianity.   

 

Equally clear - how?  Based on your sister and your own personal anecdotes?

It's not equally clear when the verses are right there in the Koran and despite your belief that no Muslims follow the Koran we can all see a lot of them avoiding contact or friendship with non-Muslims, and when mainstream Christianity does  not have the same requirement, nor does it "promote" it as you claim - no, not equally clear at all.

Again, let me reassure (for the 407,000th time) that neither Dog nor myself believe that ALL Muslims do this.  But if you can't admit that this is common in Islam - much more common than it is in Christianity.....well, you just continue on defending Islam - the greatest religion EVER!

[dialamah]

2 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Equally clear - how?  Based on your sister and your own personal anecdotes?

No, in this post to DoP:

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

By the way, here is advice to Muslims, backed up by the very words of Allah, to be friends with non-believers.

A Muslim is allowed to take non-Muslims for acquaintances and friends, to be sincere towards them and they be sincere towards him, to help one another in fulfilling the needs of this life. Almighty Allah has said in His noble Book:

“Allah does not forbid you in regard to those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice.” (60:8)

You can deny all you want that Muslims making friends with unbelievers is not allowed, but you are clearly wrong.

And before you try to lie again about what I believe or think I repeat: just like Christians, some Muslims believe association and friendship with non-believers is wrong and some believe it isn't.

[DogOnPorch]

7 minutes ago, dialamah said:

No, in this post to DoP:

You can deny all you want that Muslims making friends with unbelievers is not allowed, but you are clearly wrong.

And before you try to lie again about what I believe or think I repeat: just like Christians, some Muslims believe association and friendship with non-believers is wrong and some believe it isn't.

 

The Quran says that the thoughtlessness of your oaths will not be held unto account, but rather the intentions of your heart. Islam permits lying to infidels in order to appear friendly. Often when in a position of minority or weakness. But the Quran clearly states in several places that the unbeliever is not to be taken as a friend or an ally...and any Muslim that does is no Muslim but an infidel.

From your Quran...

Let not believers take disbelievers as allies rather than believers. And whoever [of you] does that has nothing with Allah, except when taking precaution against them in prudence. And Allah warns you of Himself, and to Allah is the [final] destination.

Quran 3 28

https://quran.com/3/28

[DogOnPorch]

30 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Again, let me reassure (for the 407,000th time) that neither Dog nor myself believe that ALL Muslims do this.  But if you can't admit that this is common in Islam - much more common than it is in Christianity.....well, you just continue on defending Islam - the greatest religion EVER!

 

As Churchill said: many Muslims are splendid individuals who served King and Empire loyally. That didn't lighten his harshness towards Islam itself that supports things like slavery and treating women like garbage, etc.

[dialamah]

9 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Again, let me reassure (for the 407,000th time) that neither Dog nor myself believe that ALL Muslims do this. 

Do you even read DoPs posts?   If you two didn't believe virtually all Muslims behaved in certain ways, you wouldn't be having meltdowns every time I, or anyone, presented a moderate Muslim behavior.  DoP wouldn't constantly post Quranic verses to "prove" that Muslims must be violent and hateful, while claiming that verses about peace and non-violence didn't count.  You wouldn't insist that a woman in a hijab must, by definition, be an extremist and/or her husband abusive and controlling.   You would allow a range of behavors among Muslims, from extremely conservative on one end to extremely progressive on the other end, with the largest majority at some point in the middle - which I have no problem saying would be conservative.  

But if you can't admit that this is common in Islam - much more common than it is in Christianity.....

This is a lie.  I have not offered an opinion on how widespread the doctrine of not making friends with non-believers might be within the Muslim world.  I merely said, in a response to Argus, that its not an uncommon belief in any religion, whereupon DoP jumped in with his Koranic quote and challenged me to demonstrate same in another religion.  I did so, and he immediately denied the sermon said what it did. 

And you are busily defending him; why would you do that if you really didn't think virtually all Muslims believe they must not be friendly with non-believers and thought I was completely wrong by saying there's Muslims who don't believe that.  

well, you just continue on defending Islam - the greatest religion EVER!

I am not defending Islam.  I am pointing out bigotted thinking, Islamophobic attitudes and people who cling to a black/white view of the world despite evidence of gray all around them.

[DogOnPorch]

2 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Do you even read DoPs posts? 

 

You're just upset that I know the Quran better than yourself...better than you ever will. My posts simply quote the Quran at your silly assumptions.

Allah is all knowing...and you simply are not.

[Goddess]

9 minutes ago, dialamah said:

DoP wouldn't constantly post Quranic verses to "prove" that Muslims must be violent and hateful, while claiming that verses about peace and non-violence didn't count.  You wouldn't insist that a woman in a hijab must, by definition, be an extremist and/or her husband abusive and controlling.

This is more evidence of your lying and misrepresenting. 

Dog doesn't post the verses to "prove Muslims are all violent and hateful"  And he has never denied that the verses about peace are also there.  The problem is you perceive any criticism of Muslims or Islam as evidence that the person is morally bankrupt.  That's a pretty extreme view, Dia.  but it's about white people, so I guess you're allowed.

I have also never said that every woman in a hijab is an extremist or abused - another of your lies.

Meltdown?  Take a good look at yourself before you go pointing the finger at others. You regularly meltdown over the slightest critique  of Islam.

Good gawd, how many meltdown have you had wringing your hands over your belief that Canada is going to send Muslims to the ovens any minute now!!!!

Edited December 28, 2018 by Goddess

[dialamah]

2 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

You're just upset that I know the Quran better than yourself...better than you ever will. My posts simply quote the Quran at your silly assumptions.

Allah is all knowing...and you simply are not.

I agree, you do know the Quran better than I do.  Were I ever to convert to Islam, I would reject your version of Islam as being hateful and extreme.  I would choose the version exemplified by moderate/progressive Muslims.  As an atheist, however, I will just call you out as a bigot and Islamophobe.

[Argus]

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

This kind of thing is exactly why I call you a bigot. 

And responses like that are exactly why I dismiss you as a brainless moron.

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

Many religions advise their adherents to avoid unbelievers;

I doubt you can name any. But in any event, none of that is evident throughout the world. The only nations which seem to discriminate against minority religions on a continuing basis, by law and custom, are Muslim nations.

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

 Using a practice common among all religions to condemn Muslims alone is bigotry.

And it is dishonest statements like this which cause me and others to question your honesty. It sounds like the kind of desperate propaganda nonsense an Islamic front would put out.

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

That a majority treats a minority within it's country poorly is hardly behavior limited to Islamic countries:  consider how Canada has treated aboriginals.

That is not an honest comparison. Nor is it timely. Canada was certainly unkind to minorities in the past but we are a much more sophisticated and cosmopolitan country now. But it is another of your tactics to compare how Muslim nations act TODAY with how Canada acted in times past.

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

Nobody denies that there are extremist, violent fundamentalists among Muslims who target Christians or anyone who doesn't follow their version of Islam.  Using extremists as the definition of Islam or Muslims is as stupid as using the Westboro Baptist Church to define Christianity and Christians. 

No, it's actually nothing remotely similar. The Westboro Baptist church is a small cult unaffiliated with any Christian church and condemned by all of them. You will not find their opinions shared by Christians in the west. However, the views of Islam propagated by Islamic extremists are in many respects identical to those of mainstream Islam. The things they do - the beheadings, the burning of people alive and enslaving of women and girls, are all things done by the prophet and his warriors against the 'enemies of Islam'.

Your continuing pretense that only a few 'extremists' are the problem in the Muslim world ignores the facts regarding how the Islamic world and the Muslim religion treats women, Jews, gays and anyone else not worshipping as they do.

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

That you take the most extreme and lurid examples of Muslim behavior as representative of all Muslims, and dismiss any effort by individuals

That you desperately seek out singular examples of individual Muslims and blithely dismiss polls showing 60% - 70-%- 80% of respondents favour death for blaspheme, apostasy, adultery, etc. across the Muslim world just shows that your intent is to defend Islam against all criticism.  That you ignore the continuing stream of outrageous, religious based violence throughout the Muslim world demonstrates your level of blind dishonesty. That you turn every discussion about ti into shrill accusations of moral deficiency is really nothing more than an admission you have no real argument to put forth other than a continuing stream of invective and insults - the product of a barren mind of exceedingly low intelligence.