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I'd like a referendum on the next Federal election ballot.


Machjo

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13 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

I don’t see any advantage in buying other countries ‘ goods at low cost while those countries are permitted to raise the costs of Canadian goods, especially since many of the countries we’d be trading with would have weaker currencies.  It doesn’t make sense.  Why would foreigners buy our stuff?  Yes, we can focus on high value, higher tech goods, but even those to some extent can be had in low cost jurisdictions.  

If they produce everything and we nothing, then they won't want to sell to us since we wouldn't be able to pay them. As a result, the moment the CAD gets too weak, they'd stop selling to us. The purpose of selling to us is to acquire CAD so that they can buy from us. They're not a charity.

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7 minutes ago, Machjo said:

If they produce everything and we nothing, then they won't want to sell to us since we wouldn't be able to pay them. As a result, the moment the CAD gets too weak, they'd stop selling to us. The purpose of selling to us is to acquire CAD so that they can buy from us. They're not a charity.

But there’s nothing in your proposal that explains how there can be gains in Canadian jobs and incomes rather than losses. We have no trouble finding cheap imports to buy.  Our challenge and the challenge of all modern western countries is maintaining decent incomes for the masses formerly called the middle class. 

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48 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

But there’s nothing in your proposal that explains how there can be gains in Canadian jobs and incomes rather than losses. We have no trouble finding cheap imports to buy.  Our challenge and the challenge of all modern western countries is maintaining decent incomes for the masses formerly called the middle class. 

Simple, stop immigration, freemarket forces employer to pay more as there is a labor shortage. Its really not that hard.

Liberal/progressive are the one responsible for the dissolution of the middle class. How do you think the democrat manage to stay in power after loosing the midwest, they import their votes. As soon as illegal's children turn 18 they vote democrat ushering in a never ending chain migration. That's why its important to end birth right citizen ship as it was meant in the constitution. 

Edited by paxamericana
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On 12/16/2018 at 6:03 AM, Michael Hardner said:

2. SEVENTY years ?  Did you mean seven ?  Seventy years is impossible to predict, and tantamount to never/forever.

This is the referendum on climate change action we never had 20 years ago - I can only  imagine the LOL's, rolling eye's and references to Pol Pot et al should anyone have suggested such a thing.

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On 12/16/2018 at 11:44 AM, Machjo said:

I'd be even more in favour of unilateral global free trade within five years too, but I thought within seventy years could make it more palatable for more cautious voters. Yet the word 'within' wiuld allow a government to accelerate it if it wanted to.

Global free trade will never work unless all countries are willing to in good faith comply. Good luck with that. Unilaterally adopting a policy of open international trade without the cooperation of other governments would lead to the collapse of the Canadian economy, or the economy of any other country that might want to try it. We need to work toward fair trade, hopefully in the broadest context possible. The current WTO regime has faltered because of its failure to include a process to review and adjust the special treatment accorded "developing" countries. In other words, it stipulates that developed economies must subject their markets and workers to free trade while developing countries are free to practice protectionism and mercantilism. The resulting disequilibrium is responsible for the nationalist and protectionist backlashes we now see in much of the West. Unilateral global free trade is simply an impossible notion as it contains the seeds of its own destruction. Free trade only works well on the basis of reciprocity and as we've learned from bitter experience even our relationship with our closest and biggest trading partner isn't grounded in true reciprocity.

Edited by turningrite
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6 hours ago, xul said:

I'm not sure if Canadian political leaders have already fully understood the true meaning of this Trump phenomenon.

My understanding is:

The phenomenon means that the US can no longer afford to share its economic profit with its allies, which include Canada.

If anybody who thinks after 2 or 6 years when Trump is gone, everything will back to "normal", he is too naive. Just having a look at the chart of US federal debt, you need not to be an economist to understand the situation. If the trend isn't turned around, our dear Uncle Sam will meet the same bitter end as Soviet Union within a couple of decades...at best.

us-federal-debt-by-president-political-p

The phenomenon also shows once again how far men can go, or exactly how low humanity can sink when they are under desperate situation. Americans haven't got Hitler as their President like what German did in 1930s, just because they haven't been desperate enough, not because they are better than those Nazi supporters back in 1930s.

Canadian also need to understand that economically, Canada isn't an US ally but a competitor, which means if GM Oshawa factory lived, one more US GM factory would die.

Don't try to blame Trump for all the past politicians stupidity. Trump is only new on the scene. Pretty much all politicians in Canada, America and the rest of the world went along and danced to the tune of the international globalist corporate elite musical show. They all played a part in that musical show of how to wreck the world for all the people of the world. 

The debt is there for Canada and America because we the people have allowed and put in power politicians who did not give a shit about their country or the world. It was all just about the money and power with those warmongering scoundrels. If Canada or America wants to get themselves out of debt then they need to start issuing their own currency and take it away from the international banksters who are just allowed to create money out of thin air and then charge interest to a country as profit for themselves. The system is rigged folks but we the people don't seem to care about that. It's hard to blame politicians for the debt mess when it is the people who have allowed it to happen. Hello. :unsure:

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27 minutes ago, taxme said:

Don't try to blame Trump for all the past politicians stupidity. Trump is only new on the scene. Pretty much all politicians in Canada, America and the rest of the world went along and danced to the tune of the international globalist corporate elite musical show. They all played a part in that musical show of how to wreck the world for all the people of the world.

 

Very true....it was way out of control long before Trump became U.S. president.  Debt has spread like a disease in the public and private sector, much of which will never be extinguished, just refinanced at a different rate of interest or defaulted.

Even with referenda, Canadians cannot control the debt machine.

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10 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Very true....it was way out of control long before Trump became U.S. president.  Debt has spread like a disease in the public and private sector, much of which will never be extinguished, just refinanced at a different rate of interest or defaulted.

Even with referenda, Canadians cannot control the debt machine.

Maybe what is needed is what I once heard that was called a "jubilee" where all the worlds debts are pretty much paid off and eliminated and the countries can start all over again without the influence and control of and by the international bankers. The Pope mentioned that word. 

Canadians and Americans can eliminate their debts easily enough if our politicians did the right thing(laugh-laugh)and took over the power of the issuance of money away from the international bankers and give it back to we the peoples government and allow our politicians/government to be able to issue and create the money instead. No more interest to the international banksters to get rich off of we the people anymore. Put those scum out of business forever. We could use a referendum on just that. 

It's not all that hard and difficult to do. It can be done. All we need is for a few patriotic politicians who do give a dam about we the people and their country for a change. It would be a challenge of course because the banksters will make sure that this idea is crazy as hell and that it will destroy everything we know and turn everything upside down and into chaos and mayhem and they will use their control and power of their media to fear monger us all to death. All one needs to do is go punch in international bankster control of money on the internet and one will find all they need to know about who creates their money and steals from them every day in interest and taxes. It's all there for those who are not of a closed mind. :)

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3 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

But there’s nothing in your proposal that explains how there can be gains in Canadian jobs and incomes rather than losses. We have no trouble finding cheap imports to buy.  Our challenge and the challenge of all modern western countries is maintaining decent incomes for the masses formerly called the middle class. 

That's the problem. We focus too much on nominal income rather than real income. If the cost of living drops, then we won't need higher wages, right?

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2 hours ago, turningrite said:

Global free trade will never work unless all countries are willing to in good faith comply. Good luck with that. Unilaterally adopting a policy of open international trade without the cooperation of other governments would lead to the collapse of the Canadian economy, or the economy of any other country that might want to try it. We need to work toward fair trade, hopefully in the broadest context possible. The current WTO regime has faltered because of its failure to include a process to review and adjust the special treatment accorded "developing" countries. In other words, it stipulates that developed economies must subject their markets and workers to free trade while developing countries are free to practice protectionism and mercantilism. The resulting disequilibrium is responsible for the nationalist and protectionist backlashes we now see in much of the West. Unilateral global free trade is simply an impossible notion as it contains the seeds of its own destruction. Free trade only works well on the basis of reciprocity and as we've learned from bitter experience even our relationship with our closest and biggest trading partner isn't grounded in true reciprocity.

Some of the wealthiest states have already adopted mostly unilateral free trade, like Hong Kong and Singapore. Real-life examples trump hypotheticals.

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53 minutes ago, taxme said:

Canadians and Americans can eliminate their debts easily enough if our politicians did the right thing(laugh-laugh)and took over the power of the issuance of money away from the international bankers and give it back to we the peoples government and allow our politicians/government to be able to issue and create the money instead. No more interest to the international banksters to get rich off of we the people anymore. Put those scum out of business forever. We could use a referendum on just that. 

 

Well Machjo, this paragraph is all you need. It is pure Social Credit communism. With people swallowing this kind of baloney, would you want them to decide trade policy?

 

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13 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Well Machjo, this paragraph is all you need. It is pure Social Credit communism. With people swallowing this kind of baloney, would you want them to decide trade policy?

 

Giving any bank carte blanche to print money would lead to out of control inflation, which hurts the poor the most. The only real solution is austerity (tax and cut).

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On ‎12‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 12:38 PM, Machjo said:

We probably will need world government eventually, albeit in a highly decentralized world federation.

I doubt China could stomach that. It seems the antithesis to what they seek to achieve in trade. I do think the Western model could handle that but multi-nationals you see ignore

governments and supercede them now. in their own organizations that form temporary alliances for mutual interests. How does your system avoid that, I mean those huge multi-nationals and their influence on market places? Again in theory I get you, in reality I am just not sure.

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7 minutes ago, Rue said:

I doubt China could stomach that. It seems the antithesis to what they seek to achieve in trade. I do think the Western model could handle that but multi-nationals you see ignore

governments and supercede them now. in their own organizations that form temporary alliances for mutual interests. How does your system avoid that, I mean those huge multi-nationals and their influence on market places? Again in theory I get you, in reality I am just not sure.

The first step would be to have leaders of character to build the system. That's just the first challenge.

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1 hour ago, Machjo said:

Giving any bank carte blanche to print money would lead to out of control inflation, which hurts the poor the most. The only real solution is austerity (tax and cut).

City states are very different kinds of places from Canada, which is resource and land rich.  We don’t need austerity. We do need a floor on wages, which would not be created through cheaper imports.  In fact, some traditional pro labour measures such as a minimum wage and legislating a  connection between the percentage of a business’s sales in a country and the percentage of the business’s labour force in the same country would help. If it’s all going to automation, we’re going to have to find a way to ensure the proceeds of that production serve more than the “owners of the means of production.”  The state could own production, but that’s communism. 

Printing money and essentially giving it away has been tried with some success.  It happened on a large scale with quantitative easing in the US, basically buying bad debt with printed money.  If your currency is strong, you can get away with a bit of it.  Buying foreign reserves is another great trick to play when your currency is strong: Basically the central bank keeps printing money and using it to buy foreign currency.  As long as markets don’t catch on, it can work for awhile.  Communist countries would do this while also setting a fixed value on their national currency.  It’s why China can spend seemingly endlessly on building infrastructure without rampant inflation.  Maybe the secret to future prosperity is state controlled capitalism.    It’s really what we already do.  Remember 2008?  Only now we admit it.      That means more international rules though on labour standards and wages, and more intervention when prosperous businesses that do good business locally decide to slash jobs locally.  

Edited by Zeitgeist
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7 hours ago, Machjo said:

Some of the wealthiest states have already adopted mostly unilateral free trade, like Hong Kong and Singapore. Real-life examples trump hypotheticals.

Hong Kong and Singapore are poor examples to cite as both are entrepot economies that are highly dependent on location for economic advantage. Both are densely populated urban centres and neither has any natural resources. And their people are heavily protected from the vicissitudes of economic instability, with 50 percent of Hong Kong's residents relying on government housing assistance of some kind and 90 percent of Singaporeans living in government-owned housing. They function as deeply integrated and specialized economic enterprises rather than as complex and diverse economies. Their uniqueness renders them examples of exceptions that prove a rule as the unique conditions under which they prosper can't be replicated in many other places. Finally, Singapore isn't a unilaterally open trading nation as it has trade agreements in place with several nations and economic blocs and the extent of Hong Kong's actual independence is suspect. 

Edited by turningrite
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On 12/17/2018 at 1:38 PM, paxamericana said:

Simple, stop immigration, freemarket forces employer to pay more as there is a labor shortage. Its really not that hard.

Liberal/progressive are the one responsible for the dissolution of the middle class. How do you think the democrat manage to stay in power after loosing the midwest, they import their votes. As soon as illegal's children turn 18 they vote democrat ushering in a never ending chain migration. That's why its important to end birth right citizen ship as it was meant in the constitution. 

You don't need market power to get everyone a permanent job. You just need to elect Chairman Mao as your president and President Mao will give every American a job because all companies will be state owned and President Mao will have the power to ask them to do so.The jobs during Mao's time in China were so permanent that even the "counter-revolutionists", which was a political crime in China then, would still be assigned a job by government after they were released from jails.

The side effect is, that China economy was fell behind by many countries. From video below  you can see, even in 1982, 6 years after Chairman Mao's death, the GDP of China was merely  on par with Switzerland. And you also can see how China takes over other countries one by one by shedding off Mao's socialism fantasy via Deng Xiaoping's reform.

I don't know who made this video. But the US GDP will be over taken by Indian in 2060? It would really be a bitter end to US if this happened.

But it isn't impossible. Indian population is on par with China and the labor cost is even lower than China. India is also able to develop 4th generation fighter jet, build aircraft carrier and  lunch satellites even a lunar probe on moon which are unknown by the public of western countries because western media used to turn a blind eye on any Indian industrial and technological achievements. 

Any viewer who not only focuses on the red bar of China but also pays attention to the green bar of India(“印度” by the bar) after 1997 will find it isn't impossible at all.

Edited by xul
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On ‎12‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 6:02 PM, Machjo said:

The first step would be to have leaders of character to build the system. That's just the first challenge.

Now again I agree in theory but we have not had statespersons, you know larger than life figures with visions like that since Churchill, FDR, Truman, Teddy Roosevelt, Disraeli, Woodrow Wilson, Konrad Adenauer, Dag Hammarskjold, John F. Kennedy, for so many years now. I think that is part of the problem. Our leadership is not made up of people of forward thinking visions anymore. Our educational system are producing institutional mandarins, people used to following not initiating and brought up to see themselves as preserving an existing structure not creating new ones. Now I may be a depressed old man, but I see a drastic change from creative to preservative leadership styles that do not promote the kind of things you say.

I wish I was wrong but the leaders coming out of China, the US, Europe, Russia, not anything to be inspired by. In the corporate world I just don't see anyone...just blandness status qup stuff.

The weird thing is what you suggest is probably a lot easier than what we have now with all the duplication from distrusting competitors.

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2 hours ago, Rue said:

Now again I agree in theory but we have not had statespersons, you know larger than life figures with visions like that since Churchill, FDR, Truman, Teddy Roosevelt, Disraeli, Woodrow Wilson, Konrad Adenauer, Dag Hammarskjold, John F. Kennedy, for so many years now. I think that is part of the problem. Our leadership is not made up of people of forward thinking visions anymore. Our educational system are producing institutional mandarins, people used to following not initiating and brought up to see themselves as preserving an existing structure not creating new ones. Now I may be a depressed old man, but I see a drastic change from creative to preservative leadership styles that do not promote the kind of things you say.

I wish I was wrong but the leaders coming out of China, the US, Europe, Russia, not anything to be inspired by. In the corporate world I just don't see anyone...just blandness status qup stuff.

The weird thing is what you suggest is probably a lot easier than what we have now with all the duplication from distrusting competitors.

Never mind duplication. I've dealt with Canadian immigration before, and I can say that they are absolutely clueless. But it's not their fault. I can imagine myself as a CBSA officer at an airport. I feel pressure from my superiors to at least make it look like I'm doing something to secure our borders. When a foreigner arrives, unless he comes from the US with which we share at least some data, I have no way of knowing much about that person unless he's on an Interpol advisory. So what do I do? I could do the rational thing of just checking his luggage for narcotics and maybe his phone for any indication of a crime (bearing in mind that his emails and text messages might all be in multiple languages that I don't even know); but beyond that, I can't do much of practical use unless I do find something suspicious in his lugage or in his phone. And if I do need an interpreter (and yes, I've encountered that with the government too), there is also the question of the interpreter's competence, the officer's competence in how to use the aid of an interpreter, and trust between interpreters and officers. I remember a case, an IRB hering, in which an accused appeared to have innocently misspoken but the interpreter, perhaps fearing that the Minister's counsel could use it unfairly against the accused, appeared to have corrupted the itnerpretation. I've come across cases at an airport where a CBSA officer was questioning a traveler and seemed to not understand the cultural context of the ansers to the questions. When the interpreter interrupted to explain this to the offier, the officer told her that her job was to interpret so she should just interpret. In other words, there might not even be much respect or trust that exists between an officer and his interpter. That just compounds problems.

I've also dealt with provincial marriage registrars in Ontario. On one occasion, the person presented a birth certificate from mainland China translated by a certified Ontario translator and a Hong Kong passport. Since the Ontario standard follows Mandarin but the Hong Kong passport follows Cantonese, her name was spelt differently between the two and so the marriage registrar strugled to identify them as belonging to the same person.

If I'm a CDSA officer, because the pressure's on me to 'do my job,' I might feel pressure to ask silly and irrelevant questions as busy work just to make it look like I'm doing my job and maybe even refuse a person entry based on an irrelevant response on his part, again, just to make it look like I'm doing my job. Like I said, I've dealt with Canadian immigration, and the above is precisely how it does down. They're working by the seat of their pants, flipping coins and reading tarot cards and peering into crystal balls to figure out whom to let in figuratively speaking, all because we irrationaly fear the 'new world order.'

I've dealt with the Canada Revenue Agency too. Do you know how they check whether a foreign national living in Canada as a permanent resident has earned any money abroad? They ask her! That's it. They have no other system in place to figure it out. Now let me ask you. Under such a primitive system, how can they even pretend to have the ability to identify international money laundering?

In my line of work, I deal with many federal government agencies, and you'd be surprised at the language barriers that exist between colleagues at certain government offices. Yes, between colleagues!

Most of the above problems do not stem from lack of technology. The technology is most certainly there to address these issues. The problem is an irrational fear of developing an international databese for practical purposes. Even the TSA, for all of their macho appearance and their crusade to protect 'Merica's borders, don't really know that much about the person entering their country unless that person's committed a crime that has put him online. Just watch the old CBSA shows on Youtube. When they catch a person, it's either because of that person's own incompetence (i.e. admitting to something or leaving it on their smarphone or having drugs in their possession), or because their crime was so serious that you can find their name and read about them online. Sure it's a little different between Canada and the US because we share information, or when dealing with a major criminal on the Interpol list. Beyond that though, let's be honest, our border agents truly are clueless.

 

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On 12/17/2018 at 3:19 PM, Queenmandy85 said:

Good luck with that.

Children from an early age need to be taught economics in school, and how the system works, and not learn only about gender/sex and diversity, and the sky is falling in environmentalism which is what they all get from our liberal/socialist/communist education system now. They are being conditioned and brainwashed as to how to be good little politically correct zombies. Schools today do not teach common sense and logic anymore but more of emotionalism and foolish silly ass talk. It's no wonder that most Canadians today are ignorant as to how the real world works from all their years of being brainwashed in school. But hey. 

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20 hours ago, Rue said:

Now again I agree in theory but we have not had statespersons, you know larger than life figures with visions like that since Churchill, FDR, Truman, Teddy Roosevelt, Disraeli, Woodrow Wilson, Konrad Adenauer, Dag Hammarskjold, John F. Kennedy, for so many years now. I think that is part of the problem. Our leadership is not made up of people of forward thinking visions anymore. Our educational system are producing institutional mandarins, people used to following not initiating and brought up to see themselves as preserving an existing structure not creating new ones

The problem, in part, is the voters tend to punish those people. Churchill was thrown out as soon as victory was at hand; President Kennedy was on the fast track to defeat in 1964 to his friend Senator Goldwater. Truman won by the skin of his teeth and I have to take issue with your view of Wilson but that is for another day. The last visionary elected in Canada was John Diefenbaker and he wasn't able to sustain the vision. FDR was the exception, I'll give you that.

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