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Let's hear what Canadians really think: If we had a parallel private health system that favored those who pay extra and simultaneously shortened wait times in the public system, would you be OK with that?  

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Guest eureka

Spiderman and Batman need not be a silly hypothetical. They could be an example of one with superhoman powers who is unlikely to need healthcare. The other all too human who, with the aid of technology is able to engage in risky ventures that could put him in need of treatment.

I think the superhuman would demand a single tier system with fair and equal access for all. I think that all the other superheroes would join him. In fact, I think they would stop saving the human race unless the demand wre met.

Kimmy, it must have been quite a load for the hangover to be still confusing you.

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In this country we pay close to half of our income to our government. HALF!!!

Which means nothing in isolation. If we are getting value for our money, doesn't it make sense to pay these taxes? I certainly concede that a discussion of whether we are getting value for our money is worthwhile, but it seems to me that conservatives approach that question, if at all, with preset conclusions in their minds.

For some of us this means several thousand dollars EVERY MONTH.  We are told by our government that this is well worth it because we have the best health care system in the world.

1-We all know that federal and provincial taxes pay for much more than health care alone.

2-Maybe we do have the best health care system in the world. Do you want to have a serious discussion on that?

...I get in a serious car accident and spend over 6 hours strapped to a spinal board waiting for treatment in the local hospital ER (YES I live in a big city).

Obviously your hospital is poorly adminstered, or your provincial government is not overseeing them properly, or nurses don't care about people anymore, or the doctor on duty was drunk, or the federal government is not transfering enough money for health care, or you needed complex treatment which required planning and thought, or ...

To me that is an unacceptible situation for a potentially very serious injury.

You could be perfectly right. It does not address the problems inherent in two-tier care.

Personally I'd rather have lower taxes, have a market healthcare system which would mean more supply and pay for my own health insurance to the tune of a couple of hundred dollars a month (at most) and get into the ER right away.

1-It would not mean more supply, it would mean re-directed supply.

2-A couple of hundred dollars a month for every Canadian would be about $72 billion a year. In 2001, at an estimated 9% GDP the cost of healthcare under the current system amounted to about $85 billion. cite

By these figures you in effect suggest that market discipline could produce a savings of 13billion per year. (Or alternatively you don't suggest that and simply want better care for yourself.) Obviously, I would doubt such saving are to be found, but let's leave that aside for the moment.

What if the government stopped paying for or managing health care and just bought a $2400 policy for every Canadian each year? Would that suit you?

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In this country we pay close to half of our income to our government. HALF!!!

Which means nothing in isolation. If we are getting value for our money, doesn't it make sense to pay these taxes? I certainly concede that a discussion of whether we are getting value for our money is worthwhile, but it seems to me that conservatives approach that question, if at all, with preset conclusions in their minds.

For some of us this means several thousand dollars EVERY MONTH.  We are told by our government that this is well worth it because we have the best health care system in the world.

1-We all know that federal and provincial taxes pay for much more than health care alone.

2-Maybe we do have the best health care system in the world. Do you want to have a serious discussion on that?

...I get in a serious car accident and spend over 6 hours strapped to a spinal board waiting for treatment in the local hospital ER (YES I live in a big city).

Obviously your hospital is poorly adminstered, or your provincial government is not overseeing them properly, or nurses don't care about people anymore, or the doctor on duty was drunk, or the federal government is not transfering enough money for health care, or you needed complex treatment which required planning and thought, or ...

To me that is an unacceptible situation for a potentially very serious injury.

You could be perfectly right. It does not address the problems inherent in two-tier care.

Personally I'd rather have lower taxes, have a market healthcare system which would mean more supply and pay for my own health insurance to the tune of a couple of hundred dollars a month (at most) and get into the ER right away.

1-It would not mean more supply, it would mean re-directed supply.

2-A couple of hundred dollars a month for every Canadian would be about $72 billion a year. In 2001, at an estimated 9% GDP the cost of healthcare under the current system amounted to about $85 billion. cite

By these figures you in effect suggest that market discipline could produce a savings of 13billion per year. (Or alternatively you don't suggest that and simply want better care for yourself.) Obviously, I would doubt such saving are to be found, but let's leave that aside for the moment.

What if the government stopped paying for or managing health care and just bought a $2400 policy for every Canadian each year? Would that suit you?

You are looking at everything from a governemtn perspective. It's much MUCH more complex than that.

First of all, Supply could easily increase under a private system. Firms could enter or exit the parket any time they want depending upon whether they believe they're model would be profitable.

Right now governments apportion tax dollars to hospitals and that sets the supply.

So first of all, as demand for services increases or decreases, the free market would adjust supply accordingly insetad of counting on a major health authority to try to predict and react to various market conditions and changes (which is probably why I ended up waiting for 6 hours). Also, private care would be in a competitive environment. I am not only a patient, I am a paying customer. As a result, providing me with the type of shoddy care I recieved form the PUBLIC hospital could cost the private clinic customers and business. Therefore the treatment would be pleasant and forthcoming, instead of delayed and rude (our current system).

As well, you need to realize that exploring alternatives means private provision in either the INSURANCE aspect of health care, or the PROVIDER aspect. There could also be some kind of combination. So simply buying a policy for everyone would be trying to fix a complex problem with a blunt instrument (or like trying to do surgery with a jackhammer). That's what's wrong with government programs to begin with. Garbage in-Garbage out. If you start with a simple (incorrect) premise that everyone has the same medical insurance needs, you will come out with a poor system that doesn't serve the community properly and people end up strapped to spinal boards for hours.

Many people may not want to buy full coverage. Like auto insurance, alot of people buy PLPD. SOme people are willing to take on a larger deductible. IE. If a wealthy person has loads of cash on hand, he may be willing to risk having to write a big cheque if it will cut his premiums in half.

Again, it's far far more complex than a government mind could every consider, which is why the government shouldn't be doing it all, which is why people in this country end up lying in hallways in pain waiting for treatment like they did in communist russia.

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You're poll is flawed because Britain is proof private healthcare along side public healthcare does not shorten wait times!

If you did some research you'd be very surprised to find the wait times in Britain are actually longer than ours.

Quebec has the most private clinics in Canada and the guy that launched the protest saying our system violated the charter was from where?

Quebec! Apparently the private clinics in Quebec didn't shorten the wait times enough to suit him.

HELLO!!! :rolleyes:

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You're poll is flawed because Britain is proof private healthcare along side public healthcare does not shorten wait times!

If you did some research you'd be very surprised to find the wait times in Britain are actually longer than ours.

Quebec has the most private clinics in Canada and the guy that launched the protest saying our system violated the charter was from where?

Quebec! Apparently the private clinics in Quebec didn't shorten the wait times enough to suit him.

HELLO!!! :rolleyes:

It's more complex than that. He was forced to stay on a public waiting list by the province's law.

Private clinics in Quebec don't do hip replacements.

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Many people may not want to buy full coverage.

Only those who cannot afford it would not 'want' to buy full coverage.

Certainly we all have budgets and make choices.

Some peoples budgets and choices are constrained by low incomes. Maybe that comes as news to you, but tha would mean you live in some kind of cloistered unreal type of existence ad have little to add to conversations about public policy.

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You're poll is flawed because Britain is proof private healthcare along side public healthcare does not shorten wait times!

If you did some research you'd be very surprised to find the wait times in Britain are actually longer than ours.

Quebec has the most private clinics in Canada and the guy that launched the protest saying our system violated the charter was from where?

Quebec! Apparently the private clinics in Quebec didn't shorten the wait times enough to suit him.

HELLO!!! :rolleyes:

Two-tiered is flawed in the UK, end of debate. Case closed.

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Many people may not want to buy full coverage.

Only those who cannot afford it would not 'want' to buy full coverage.

Certainly we all have budgets and make choices.

Some peoples budgets and choices are constrained by low incomes. Maybe that comes as news to you, but tha would mean you live in some kind of cloistered unreal type of existence ad have little to add to conversations about public policy.

Certainly and those underprivledged should be insured by medicare. What does YOUR point have to do with a debate about the introduction of private care?

Private care for those who buy private insurance has nothing to do with someone who wishes to remain insure by the public system.

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He said thousands per month.

And you conveniently cutout the part where I said, "Exaggerated maybe, but not so far of a stretch as to lack all credit."

I ignored it because it was a worthless, opinionated, irrelevant partisan apologia. Why should I acknowledge such tripe?

The point wasn't worthless, I was pointing out that he was "exaggerating" the amount of money spent on healthcare.

You may very well classify it as opinionated, but it certainly isn't anymore opinionated than you labelling someone as lacking "reading comprehension" or having "short-term memory problems".

It certainly wasn't irrelevant when you made the choice of jumping on the point that he doesn't spend thousands per month on healthcare, instead of actually addressing the point he was making. You know damn well it was an exaggeration, but all of that actually depends on this guy's income. How do you know he's not making close to a million a year? In that case, the amount of taxes he pays may very well amount ot thousands of dollars per month on healthcare.

What's irrelevant is that we're actually arguing about this point because you're content with playing stupid instead of addressing the actual meaning and intent of his post.

If I wasn't completely bored at the moment I wouldn't even take the time to respond to this blatantly obvious trolling.

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You're poll is flawed because Britain is proof private healthcare along side public healthcare does not shorten wait times!

If you did some research you'd be very surprised to find the wait times in Britain are actually longer than ours.

And North Korea is proof that an all public health care system does not work! The wait times there are actually longer than ours.

:rolleyes:

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I have no problem with two-tier health care as long as it's modeled so that it benefits ordinary Canadians, such as those who want to pay for faster care pay taxes on those services or something along those lines. But I'm open to suggestions.

They'd obviously be paying GST on it, at the very least.

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