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More Conservative B.S. Exposed


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People in the US, Jerry, have been educated from the cradle to fear the nightmare of "Socialism." I wpuld wager that very few Americans know what we know and that the US healthcare system ranks 37th, in the world. That is worse than some of the developing countries.

No wonder they respond the way they do to polls. McCarthyism is actually alive and well. It just takes a more insidious form.

Certainly everyone there has to be treated "in an emergency" but not otherwise. People can and do die slowly from many ailments without care until it is too late. The question then is how are they treated and the answer, as you will find if you read reports on American healthcare, is not very well It mat also require them to spend the rest of their lives paying for what they received.

Those rankings are incredibly biased by the way.

And actually it is People in Canada, Eureka, who have been educated from the cradle to fear the nightmare of "Privatization." You really need to get some perspective.

Other than regurgitating Liberal campagn ads I'd prefer to hear actual facts.

Our system of rationing and lineups is pathetically similar to the grocery stores in soviet russia.

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You know, it's funny when Americans are polled on whether they'd like to keep their current system or have a universal system like ours, they overwhelmingly support keeping their current system.  Now if that system is such a nightmare, then why would this be the case?

Not that's I'd like to mirror their system, but this  mythology about people dying in the streets because of private care are a load of crap. 

They probably never polled those folks who are bankrupt from medical bills. They may not be dying in the streets, but they're paying dearly for medical care. Not everyone has insurance down there, and the many that do still pay plenty over and above what their insurance covers for basic medical care.

Not true, not true and not true.

You lefties need to quit reciting Liberal attack campaigns and stick to the facts.

I spend a lot of time in the US and love to engage taxi drivers about the "evils" of their system. Many of these fellows have no health insurance and simply go to the county hospital for treatment and have nad no problem with that.

Insurance is a matter of choice in the US and many choose not to buy it.

Secondly, most people in the US don't even PAY there own insurance premiums; their employers do.

But I am no longer going to debate this because I am not in favor of the US system.

My main point is that Canada's needs some serious improvement. As a country the costs of medicare are quickly rising as the population ages. That combined with a much smaller tax base as the boomers retire and we are in for a serious crisis.

We basically have two choices: increase the tax rate to pay for this upcoming bubble (no thanks) or explore innovative ways to provide health care into the future ;; like private ones.

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"Insurance is a matter of choice in the US and many choose not to buy it."

A person who would actually choose not to have health insurance in the US must be an idiot. Even if you have made the best lifestyle choices, that is no guarantee you can avoid medical problems. From tripping and falling, to real serious diseases like multiple sclerosis and types of cancer, all sorts of things can happend that you don't have control over.

I think anyone who 'choose' not to have medical insurance for their own families is not a fit person to be a parent.

Oh, by the way: "Sixty-five percent of Americans support the U.S. government guaranteeing health insurance for all citizens, even if it means raising taxes, according to a survey by the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press."

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opin...28_lance03.html

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"Insurance is a matter of choice in the US and many choose not to buy it."

A person who would actually choose not to have health insurance in the US must be an idiot.  Even if you have made the best lifestyle choices,  that is no guarantee you can avoid medical problems.  From tripping and falling, to real serious diseases like multiple sclerosis and types of cancer, all sorts of things can happend that you don't have control over. 

I think anyone who 'choose' not to have medical insurance for their own families is not a fit person to be a parent. 

Oh, by the way: "Sixty-five percent of Americans support the U.S. government guaranteeing health insurance for all citizens, even if it means raising taxes, according to a survey by the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press."

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opin...28_lance03.html

See now THAT is something I could get on side with. People buy their own private insurance but after a meanstest if they can't afford it, it would be guaranteed by the government.

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As it stands today in Canada, my parents who use WAY more medical services than I do pay the exact same amount of money into healthcare as I do.

You know that's the same crap I heard from a young person I worked with regarding the company's participation into a Long Term Disability Insurance. It was at a meeting for the employees to vote ton participate or not, since it would involve everyone's to be involved in order for the insuranc ecompany to offer the policy. His comment went something like, "I am young and healthy and I don't see why I have to pay into something I will never use." That was the young invincible person talking. A few shot years later after I myself suffered a heart attack and was classed as permanently disabled, and started drawing the Long Term Disability, this person was involved in an accident and he too wound up on disability. He now thinks that his opinion back then was very short-sighted.

A person can be in the best of health today, live a healthy lifestyle as you put it, but sometimes accident's happen or genetic predispositions kick in and you too might wind up in the same boat as your parent's. Don't forget one thing, once you have a pre-existing condition these insurance plans no longer want anything to do with you, because what they really want are only healthy people who are not going to put in a claim. Their hope is that instead of suffering a dibilitating ailment, you just drop dead, thus ending their obligation as far as paying disability benefits are concerned. Many company sponsored plans like Blue Cross inquire as to pre-existing health concerns on the initial application, if there are any, coverage is denied to that employee. Where does this leave those who for whatever reason are not considered insurable by the private health insurance providers, or do you really care? If you have such low regard for the poor choices your parent's made regarding lifestyle, I would question how much compassion you would have for anyone else.

I'd just like to say I thought it was obvious that as a supposed conservative supporter I have no compassion for anything or anyone.

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You know, it's funny when Americans are polled on whether they'd like to keep their current system or have a universal system like ours, they overwhelmingly support keeping their current system.  Now if that system is such a nightmare, then why would this be the case?

Not that's I'd like to mirror their system, but this  mythology about people dying in the streets because of private care are a load of crap. 

They probably never polled those folks who are bankrupt from medical bills. They may not be dying in the streets, but they're paying dearly for medical care. Not everyone has insurance down there, and the many that do still pay plenty over and above what their insurance covers for basic medical care.

Not true, not true and not true.

You lefties need to quit reciting Liberal attack campaigns and stick to the facts.

I spend a lot of time in the US and love to engage taxi drivers about the "evils" of their system. Many of these fellows have no health insurance and simply go to the county hospital for treatment and have nad no problem with that.

Insurance is a matter of choice in the US and many choose not to buy it.

Secondly, most people in the US don't even PAY there own insurance premiums; their employers do.

But I am no longer going to debate this because I am not in favor of the US system.

My main point is that Canada's needs some serious improvement. As a country the costs of medicare are quickly rising as the population ages. That combined with a much smaller tax base as the boomers retire and we are in for a serious crisis.

We basically have two choices: increase the tax rate to pay for this upcoming bubble (no thanks) or explore innovative ways to provide health care into the future ;; like private ones.

I wasn't lying in my original post and I object to your insinuation. I have family down there and they pay dearly for medical costs OVER AND ABOVE THEIR INSURANCE. Do you honestly think that there isn't anyone who has gone bankrupt over medical costs? Believe what you want to I guess.

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You know, it's funny when Americans are polled on whether they'd like to keep their current system or have a universal system like ours, they overwhelmingly support keeping their current system.  Now if that system is such a nightmare, then why would this be the case?

Not that's I'd like to mirror their system, but this  mythology about people dying in the streets because of private care are a load of crap. 

They probably never polled those folks who are bankrupt from medical bills. They may not be dying in the streets, but they're paying dearly for medical care. Not everyone has insurance down there, and the many that do still pay plenty over and above what their insurance covers for basic medical care.

Not true, not true and not true.

You lefties need to quit reciting Liberal attack campaigns and stick to the facts.

I spend a lot of time in the US and love to engage taxi drivers about the "evils" of their system. Many of these fellows have no health insurance and simply go to the county hospital for treatment and have nad no problem with that.

Insurance is a matter of choice in the US and many choose not to buy it.

Secondly, most people in the US don't even PAY there own insurance premiums; their employers do.

But I am no longer going to debate this because I am not in favor of the US system.

My main point is that Canada's needs some serious improvement. As a country the costs of medicare are quickly rising as the population ages. That combined with a much smaller tax base as the boomers retire and we are in for a serious crisis.

We basically have two choices: increase the tax rate to pay for this upcoming bubble (no thanks) or explore innovative ways to provide health care into the future ;; like private ones.

I wasn't lying in my original post and I object to your insinuation. I have family down there and they pay dearly for medical costs OVER AND ABOVE THEIR INSURANCE. Do you honestly think that there isn't anyone who has gone bankrupt over medical costs? Believe what you want to I guess.

There are serious problems in the US system which is why I don't favor copying it.

I have family in the US too, in fact my brother is a surgeon down there.

He and three of his colleagues perform "pro-bono" procedures routinely of the patient can't pay. The other ONE surgeon of this type (in the city) does not.

My point is that it's just a myth that the US system is a nightmare.

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Guest eureka

You waste your time trying to get through to Jerry on that. I even gave him a passage from the International Health Care Providers Conference that affirmed what you say.

But, a fact should never be allowed to stand in the way of an ideology. Isn't that how the neocons in the States have succeeded so well in their deceit?

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You waste your time trying to get through to Jerry on that. I even gave him a passage from the International Health Care Providers Conference that affirmed what you say.

But, a fact should never be allowed to stand in the way of an ideology. Isn't that how the neocons in the States have succeeded so well in their deceit?

People are dying in the United States and going bankrupt from their medical costs because there is NO public healthcare system in place. Canadians are dying from sitting on waiting lists and finding it increasingly difficult to make a living because of increasing taxes because we have NO private system.

The point is that no one is advocating an entirely private system here; however, there are a TON of people in Canada that seem to think the opposite extreme of an entirely public system is god's gift to society. There are problems inherent in BOTH systems (the american system for the reasons you posted and the canadian system for the court's decision to name one example) and that's why a lot of us feel a combined system that takes the best aspects of both systems is what we need.

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Guest eureka

I am still at a loss to know what the best aspect of a private system could be. To pay more for restricted access and "don't come to us if your problem is serious" does not appear to me to offer any better choices.

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I am still at a loss to know what the best aspect of a private system could be. To pay more for restricted access and "don't come to us if your problem is serious" does not appear to me to offer any better choices.

Perhaps you're just unwilling to accept the seriousness of the problems in our current system or the solutions that can be offered through a two-tiered system. Not a single person has advocated an entirely private healthcare system like the US has and you just won't accept that. You keep going back to the idea that people won't get care if they can't afford it and this has NEVER been the case, nor would it ever be if there's a two-tier system. The best you or anyone who is completely against it can come up with is, "yeah but the people in the public system will have to be on waiting lists." There's nothing to prove that it would be any worse than the waiting lists they are currently on. People in the public system already have to wait for care and are already suffering from doctor shortages. A fully private system would be a terrible solution that would only serve to ruin people's lives like it has in the US. Allowing people the choice between seeking publicly funded help or paying for their own extended services only makes sense and is a fair compromise between the extremes of the two systems.

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Perhaps you're just unwilling to accept the seriousness of the problems in our current system or the solutions that can be offered through a two-tiered system.

It is quite natural and proper to be "unwilling to accept" the "solutions" offered by a two-tier system because they are not good or valid 'solutions'.

Two-tier health care may provide better care to the few who can afford it, but it will cost more and not meet the needs of people who cannot afford it.

You keep going back to the idea that people won't get care if they can't afford it

They will get inferior care at greater cost.

There's nothing to prove that it would be any worse than the waiting lists they are currently on.

Only economic theory, common sense, and several studies cited by eureka. If you want to dispense with economic theory, common sense, and these studies, then I suppose you're right.

People in the public system already have to wait for care and are already suffering from doctor shortages.

Yes. The solution is to manage better and fund better, NOT divert resources to a select few and build in additional profit margins.

A fully private system would be a terrible solution that would only serve to ruin people's lives like it has in the US.

And two tier healthcare would only bring us closer to that situation.

Allowing people the choice between seeking publicly funded help or paying for their own extended services only makes sense and is a fair compromise between the extremes of the two systems.

What can you possible mean by a 'fair compromise'? Whose interests are we compromising the public interest for?

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Allowing people the choice between seeking publicly funded help or paying for their own extended services only makes sense and is a fair compromise between the extremes of the two systems.

What can you possible mean by a 'fair compromise'? Whose interests are we compromising the public interest for?

If we were to allow some level of private service, I think one necessary feature is to make sure that all doctors have only limited participation in their private practice. For example, a specialist might have to work 66% of the time for patients in the public system, and then can use the other 34% to run a private practice. The big worry is that highly skilled physicians will all go to a private practice, leaving people who rely on the public system with even longer waiting times.

Any thoughts on this?

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Allowing people the choice between seeking publicly funded help or paying for their own extended services only makes sense and is a fair compromise between the extremes of the two systems.

What can you possible mean by a 'fair compromise'? Whose interests are we compromising the public interest for?

If we were to allow some level of private service, I think one necessary feature is to make sure that all doctors have only limited participation in their private practice. For example, a specialist might have to work 66% of the time for patients in the public system, and then can use the other 34% to run a private practice. The big worry is that highly skilled physicians will all go to a private practice, leaving people who rely on the public system with even longer waiting times.

Any thoughts on this?

Doctor's run private practices now! 100% of Doctor's practices are private right now!!!!

Dr. XXX XXX XXX -- "professional corporation"

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I'm glad you posted that article, even though I disagree with it, because it points out that there are different factors to take into account.  As far as taxes are concerned, for me all that really matters is my personal experience.  Compared to the taxes I paid when I worked in the US, I pay far more in taxes here.  My take home pay was far better in the US.  I don't really care what creative statistics you Libs come up with to try and convince me tax rates are similar, because they simply aren't.  That's my personal experience and the experience of my counterparts living in the US.  I have many friends and relatives who have the same experience as well.

I've never lived in the U.S. so I'll take your word for it, but I just enjoy living in a country where they don't ask for my credit card when I go to the hospital. ;)

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"Doctor's run private practices now! 100% of Doctor's practices are private right now!!!!"

Let me rephrase it a bit. In private practice, I mean one where the user will personally pay (or the charge is paid for by a privately held medical insurance plan), not one where the government pays the bill.

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I'm glad you posted that article, even though I disagree with it, because it points out that there are different factors to take into account.  As far as taxes are concerned, for me all that really matters is my personal experience.  Compared to the taxes I paid when I worked in the US, I pay far more in taxes here.  My take home pay was far better in the US.  I don't really care what creative statistics you Libs come up with to try and convince me tax rates are similar, because they simply aren't.  That's my personal experience and the experience of my counterparts living in the US.  I have many friends and relatives who have the same experience as well.

I've never lived in the U.S. so I'll take your word for it, but I just enjoy living in a country where they don't ask for my credit card when I go to the hospital. ;)

Ya you'd rather die waiting in line for "free" health care. Please, is that the best you can come up with, some regurgitated Liberal propeganda? Give me a break.

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"Doctor's run private practices now! 100% of Doctor's practices are private right now!!!!"

Let me rephrase it a bit.  In private practice, I mean one where the user will personally pay (or the charge is paid for by a privately held medical insurance plan), not one where the government pays the bill.

Yea so where does it say that the private insurer pays the doctor more? Fees are set by health authorities I believe.

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