Frankly speaking when I went to US I thought that

[Bat_]

Frankly speaking when I went to US I thought that I was going into the most democratic country in the world. Now I’m looking around and the question emerges in my mind: may be I’ve got a wrong number? Where is freedom of speech? Where is freedom of press? I never thought that a journalist could be thrown in jail for refusing to reveal his sources of information. I couldn’t imagine that it is necessary to receive permission from Treasury Department for publication of Cuban or Irani fiction under the threat of imprisonment only because of economical embargo of USA in those countries.

Most likely that all journalists in US are bought or intimidated by officials. Mass media form negative images of our allies. They say that nobody supports US even in Europe. It seems to me that USA has no friends anymore. Our forces took to aim all our allies. They are ready to strike at any of them if only bin Laden or someone else will appear there. It turns out that there are only enemies around US and there is sabre-rattling everywhere. Have we quarreled with everyone? Does everyone have a grudge against us?

[PatM]

There was a time when the US was a democracy. That time has sadly passed. Instead of innocent until proven guilty, it is now guilty until proven innocent. Since you can be arrested and held indefinately without charge or access to council, proving yourself innocent is pretty close to impossible.

Also gone is the idea that you have to break a law to be arrested. Now it is enough for someone to think you MIGHT break a law sometime in the future. Just how are you supposed to *prove* you wouldn't do something at some future date - particularly whe you aren't told the charge in the first place?

The USA is a democracy in name only. The mainstream press is only marginally better than Pravda of the cold war. Diebold machines were used to fraudulently delcare bush a winner in two elections yet the mainstream press refused to do anything resembling investigative reporting.

Jeff Gannon/Guckert, a gay male prostitute was granted a press pass by the administration and used as a planted "reporter" in white house press conferences - whenever reporters remembered their role and started asking real questions, staff would cut them off and call on Gannon for safety - he would lob softballs and break the line of uncomfortable questions.

Anyone in the press that says something the Whitehouse doesn't like earns the wrath of the Whitehouse AND the rest of the mainstream media. The Newsweek report that a southcomm investigation revealed Qur'an flushing was spun into "Newsweek lies about Qur'ans being flushed causes riots and death in Afghanistan", despite the Chief of Defense Staff saying a week earlier that the Newsweek article had little to do with the riots. Now that Karzai himself has weighed in and said the Newsweek article had little to do with the riots and killings,

McCLellan lies and says he never said that!

Patriot Act II, soon to be passed, gives the FBI the right to issue its own warrents for search and siezure without judicial revue. I guess the ability to get secret warrents in secret courts that anyone served is bound by law to keep secret isn't enough.

Want a book from the Library - Be ready to be fingerprinted. The librarys say the records will be confidential. Consider the latest FBI attempt to get the Names of all people that read Bin Laden's biography. Only a police state makes it a crime to "know your enemy".

The USA is not democracy, it is no longer the land of the free.

[moderateamericain]

There was a time when the US was a democracy. That time has sadly passed. Instead of innocent until proven guilty, it is now guilty until proven innocent. Since you can be arrested and held indefinately without charge or access to council, proving yourself innocent is pretty close to impossible.

Also gone is the idea that you have to break a law to be arrested. Now it is enough for someone to think you MIGHT break a law sometime in the future. Just how are you supposed to *prove* you wouldn't do something at some future date - particularly whe you aren't told the charge in the first place?

The USA is a democracy in name only. The mainstream press is only marginally better than Pravda of the cold war. Diebold machines were used to fraudulently delcare bush a winner in two elections yet the mainstream press refused to do anything resembling investigative reporting.

Jeff Gannon/Guckert, a gay male prostitute was granted a press pass by the administration and used as a planted "reporter" in white house press conferences - whenever reporters remembered their role and started asking real questions, staff would cut them off and call on Gannon for safety - he would lob softballs and break the line of uncomfortable questions.

Anyone in the press that says something the Whitehouse doesn't like earns the wrath of the Whitehouse AND the rest of the mainstream media. The Newsweek report that a southcomm investigation revealed Qur'an flushing was spun into "Newsweek lies about Qur'ans being flushed causes riots and death in Afghanistan", despite the Chief of Defense Staff saying a week earlier that the Newsweek article had little to do with the riots. Now that Karzai himself has weighed in and said the Newsweek article had little to do with the riots and killings,

McCLellan lies and says he never said that!

Patriot Act II, soon to be passed, gives the FBI the right to issue its own warrents for search and siezure without judicial revue. I guess the ability to get secret warrents in secret courts that anyone served is bound by law to keep secret isn't enough.

Want a book from the Library - Be ready to be fingerprinted. The librarys say the records will be confidential. Consider the latest FBI attempt to get the Names of all people that read Bin Laden's biography. Only a police state makes it a crime to "know your enemy".

The USA is not democracy, it is no longer the land of the free.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

PATM: name a country that has more freedom than the united states please.

[Shakeyhands]

PATM: name a country that has more freedom than the united states please.

What is your definition of freedom MA? I would think that many are as "free" including Canada, the UK, Mexico, Germany, Spain... I could go on. But I think this hinges on your definition of 'freedom'.. can you expound?

[Fortunata]

USA is of course a democracy. If you listen to the reigning regime, it is still the bastion of democracy and freedom. Some still buy into this. However, in an astonishingly short period of time, freedoms are being withdrawn for the illusion of safety. It is still considered a free society, just not as free as it was just a few short years ago.

[August1991]

Frankly speaking when I went to US I thought that I was going into the most democratic country in the world.

Bat, if you come back and reply, I'll answer in kind. But I think you're trolling, in the true sense of the word.

[newbie]

The only comment on free press I have is why they banned the Reagan movie from CBS. I know it probably didn't show Ronnie in a good light, but to ban it before release.

Sounds like censorship.

[newbie]

deleted

[TokyoTakarazuka]

The USA is not democracy, it is no longer the land of the free.

The problem with your analysis is that it relies only on citing individual abuses. By homing in on sporadic cases of reported misconduct, any democracy in the world could be made to appear unfree, and that’s particularly true of a country like the United States with a high population and a vigilant free press to investigate human rights violations.

However, the freedom of every society is relative. In 1800, the United States certainly deserved its designation as a land of the free, being undoubtedly the world’s most democratic and libertarian nation-state. By today’s standards, however, early-19th-century America would rank among the world’s most repressive countries. By analyzing America’s current human rights record in comparison to every other country in the world, accusations that the United States is not a democracy are revealed to be preposterous.

For instance, the internationally-respected American human rights foundation Freedom House, which ranks the state of human rights in every country of the world, gave the United States its highest possible score for both political and civil liberties, the same score given to only 40 other countries of 200 surveyed. The French non-government organization Reporters Without Borders ranks global press freedom in 167 countries. According to their most recent report, the United States upholds freedom of the press diligently, and ties with Belgium for having the 22nd freest press in the world. In terms of government and corporate accountability, Transparency International considers the United States to be 18th least corrupt country in the world.

Therefore, despite the ongoing need for improvement, comparative indices reveal that the United States is still easily among the world’s freest and most democratic societies.

[Melanie_]

These statistics put the US among the freest nations in the world, but certainly not the most free, as American spin doctors are constantly boasting. I think that is the crux of this debate - sure, the US is democratic and has a free press, but it doesn't lead the world, and the incessent trumpeting of superiority is what causes people to look for flaws.

[Guest eureka]

The US is not democratic and does not have a free press. It has the superficial trappings of democracy and a press that is completely under the control of only a few interests.

The illusion of democracy lies in the fallacious idea that if everything is voted on and everyone can vote, then there is democracy.

There is much more to democracy than that and the US was designed by its founders to not be a democracy other than in name.

Money has always been the source of power in the US.

[August1991]

These statistics put the US among the freest nations in the world, but certainly not the most free, as American spin doctors are constantly boasting. I think that is the crux of this debate - sure, the US is democratic and has a free press, but it doesn't lead the world, and the incessent trumpeting of superiority is what causes people to look for flaws.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Melanie, you're kind of right. The US is far from perfect, and far from its own ideals. But think again. In 1776, when the Declaration of Independence was written, nobody for about 2000 years or so had ever conceived a society without a King or an Emperor. In 1776, it was revolutionary to say that a common, ordinary person has the right to be, to live and to choose. (The French Revolution came 13 years later.)

The writers of the US Constititution not only managed to create such a society of freedom, but its practical result has fluorished for over two centuries. It works. It works now in a society of 300 million people. Ordinary people from all over the world can come and live together civilly while choosing to do what they want. As John Lennon (who chose to live in New York City) said, Imagine.

Too many in Canada take all this for granted. Some Canadians smugly pretend that they are more civilized than Americans. In fact, we Canadians benefit from all the privileges of being American but can avoid all the responsibilities.

If Newton's differential calculus is the scientific discovery of the past millenia, then the American experiment is the human discovery of the past millenia. Let us be honest. Where would the world be today without the US Constitution?

[Argus]

These statistics put the US among the freest nations in the world, but certainly not the most free, as American spin doctors are constantly boasting. I think that is the crux of this debate - sure, the US is democratic and has a free press, but it doesn't lead the world, and the incessent trumpeting of superiority is what causes people to look for flaws.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The statement was not that the US was not the freeest nation on earth. The statement was that the US is not a democracy. Which is bullshit.

[Argus]

The US is not democratic and does not have a free press. It has the superficial trappings of democracy and a press that is completely under the control of only a few interests.

Ludicrous, ignorant drivel.

Money has always been the source of power in the US.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And in every other nation on earth, including Canada, from the beginning of recorded time.

You had some kind of point?

[Melanie_]

Argus, I'm not suggesting that the US isn't a democracy, or even, August, that they don't have the history that inspired the Western world. I readily agree with both of you on this. But I am tired of hearing about how much better they are than everyone else, and I believe their arrogance and superiority complex drives people to look for things to criticize about them. If they are as superior as they project, it should be self evident. That is what this thread was originally about, Bat thinking the US was the most democratic country in the world, based on the image and packaging of democracy that they export to the rest of the world.

[Guest eureka]

My point, Argus, was the one I made. I have expounded on it at some length i other discussions. Some others have also commented on the lack of a Free Press in the USA and that means that the basis of democracy is missing.

I may have taken it further than most, but accurately so. The USA was not at its founding a democracy and was not intended to be one in spite of the high-blown rhetoric that surrounded that founding. I have pointed to the purpose of the College of Electors as one evidence of that,

The US did make strides towards becoming a democracy with the emancipation of slaves and the removal of property qualifications and with a vigorous developing press. However, it suffered many setbacks on the way because of its system for electing almost everything and its flawed system of judicial appointments. In the past few decades it has become all downhill as lobbying became an art form and the tit-for-tat nature of its Senatorial and Congressional relations intensified.

WE think we have corruption with the Sponsorship program. That is penny ante stuff. In the USA, the amount missappropriated annually runs into many billions by Senators alone and there is no trail to follow to discover where it has gone.

American freedom and democracy today is a sad joke.

[ScottBrison]

Frankly speaking when I went to US I thought that I was going into the most democratic country in the world. Now I’m looking around and the question emerges in my mind: may be I’ve got a wrong number? Where is freedom of speech? Where is freedom of press? I never thought that a journalist could be thrown in jail for refusing to reveal his sources of information. I couldn’t imagine that it is necessary to receive permission from Treasury Department for publication of Cuban or Irani fiction under the threat of imprisonment only because of economical embargo of USA in those countries.

Most likely that all journalists in US are bought or intimidated by officials. Mass media form negative images of our allies. They say that nobody supports US even in Europe. It seems to me that USA has no friends anymore. Our forces took to aim all our allies. They are ready to strike at any of them if only bin Laden or someone else will appear there. It turns out that there are only enemies around US and there is sabre-rattling everywhere. Have we quarreled with everyone? Does everyone have a grudge against us?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The U.S. isn't a democracy it's a republic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic

[Black Dog]

ne're mind.

[Argus]

Argus, I'm not suggesting that the US isn't a democracy,

Others on this topic have done so.

or even, August, that they don't have the history that inspired the Western world. I readily agree with both of you on this. But I am tired of hearing about how much better they are than everyone else, and I believe their arrogance and superiority complex drives people to look for things to criticize about them.

Then people should grow up. The Americans are hardly the only people in the world who think they're better than anyone else. They are richer, more powerful, have a higher standard of living, and are generally the envy of most of the world. No reason why they shouldn't be feeling a trifle arrogant about that. Hey, people come to Canada legally, become immigrants or refugees, just to get closer to the US border and then try to cross illegally so they can live and work there. What does THAT tell you? How many foreigners do you see allowed to stay in the US who try to cross illegally into Canada to live and work? None.

So the US can be arrogant. Hardly surprising from the richest, most powerful kid on the block. The Japanese are appallingly arrogant and self centred, too. Yes, and racist, but they're quiet about it. The Chinese are too. Certainly the French are probably top dogs in the arrogance race, but they don't get much publicity over here.

If they are as superior as they project, it should be self evident. That is what this thread was originally about, Bat thinking the US was the most democratic country in the world, based on the image and packaging of democracy that they export to the rest of the world.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The US is an imperfect state being run by imperfect people (very imperfect). I don't know any which aren't. But they are extremely democratic in many ways, and in some ways more free than Canada. I doubt a group of Nazis in full uniform would be able to parade through the streets of Toronto, for example, and then give speeches about white pride and how nasty Jews are trying to take over the world. They'd all be arrested. Is that democratic or free? No, but most of us seem to be happy with it.

[Argus]

My point, Argus, was the one I made. I have expounded on it at some length i other discussions. Some others have also commented on the lack of a Free Press in the USA and that means that the basis of democracy is missing.

By any sane measure, the US has a freeer press with far more open opposition to the government from far more sources than in Canada, which basically has three main media groups all owned or controlled by government supporters.

The US did make strides towards becoming a democracy with the emancipation of slaves and the removal of property qualifications and with a vigorous developing press. However, it suffered many setbacks on the way because of its system for electing almost everything and its flawed system of judicial appointments.

Yes, fortunately we have a perfect system of judicial appointments here. The government appoints its own supporters, quietly, with no fanfare and no discussion. Why oh why can't those terrible Americans learn from us!?

WE think we have corruption with the Sponsorship program. That is penny ante stuff. In the USA, the amount missappropriated annually runs into many billions by Senators alone and there is no trail to follow to discover where it has gone.

And you know about it because --- of that free press. And the only reason you think Sponsorship is the epitime of corruption in Canada is that you DON'T know about all the rest of it. Is US politics corrupt? Sure. Is Canadian politic corrupt? Sure. How do you get a bill passed in the US? Donate money to politicians. How do you get a bill passed in Canada? Donate money to politicians.

How do you think the big pharmaceuticals strengthened their monopolies here? They bribed the Mulroney government, then the Chretien government, to pass and keep legislation extending their copyrights and making it much harder even afterwards for generic drug manufacturers to operate. As a result, our drug prices have been getting steadily closer to the Americans. We now pay considerably more for our prescription drugs than they pay in Europe.

American freedom and democracy today is a sad joke.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You could say that only if you use the same yardstic and conclude ours is every bit as much of a joke.

I have a feeling you won't do that, though.

[CrazyCanuck]

After reading these posts and listening to Canadians from coast to coast continually bash the Americans, i came to a conclusion about Canada: In general, we don't even know what we are or what we stand for, except that "we aren't American!!!!". In my experience, most Canadians respond to a question like "The Canadian Health Care system is under criticism by many, what is the main problem?" with an answer like, "Well at least we ALL get treated if we're sick, unlike the United States." My girlfriend took a course on Canadian Identity and she said that everytime an issue was to be debated, the prof had to tell everyone that we are talking about Canadian identity so don't relate comments or questions to the United States, and then the debates would sputter and end. She said that when not allowed to refer to the USA, nobody could even develop worthwhile comments. I don't think i'm alone with this observation about us. If countries had slogans, ours would be, "Well, we may not all be Canadian, but we're definately NOT American!"

While i don't agree with all decisions made by the USA, i at least respect their ability to make decisions. They didn't become so powerful and influencial by worrying if they were going to offend someone. True progress is achieved by making mistakes and learning from them, which is something us Canadians need to realize. They may have a superiority-complex, but we have an inferiority-complex, and we need to get over it.

[Guest eureka]

It is quite impossible to talk about a Canadian identity without referncing and contrasting the United States. You girlfriend's prof should go back to school.

Canada was created to be different to the United States. How is it possible to say what we are without looking at that benchmark?

In the same way, the US was created to be something different than Britain. It certainly is that while we, fortunately, have retained enough of that Britishness that we were born to be to remain a free and democratic society.

[CrazyCanuck]

It is quite impossible to talk about a Canadian identity without referncing and contrasting the United States. You girlfriend's prof should go back to school.

So you can't answer the question what it means to be Canadian without a reference to the United States? Sounds like you should go back to school. If you asked Americans what it means to be American, how many references are you going to get about Canadians? Probably none. If you asked the British what it means to be British, how many references to other European nations are you gonna get? Not that many. If someone asks you personally, "What is your identity?" or "Who are you?", can you not answer without referring to your neighbor or friend?

What i'm saying is that most Canadians cannot speak of themselves and their identity without mentioning what we are with respect to Americans, and that is sad. What if the United States ceased to exist tommorow, would we then be unable to say what it means to be Canadian because the "benchmark" for how we identify ourselves isn't there?

[Guest eureka]

I meant precisely what I wrote and for the reasons I gave. Can you in any way refute those reasons?

Not too long ago, a Canadian was British and not American because he was British in intent. Now, he is more not American than he is British.

No nation can identify itself except in reference to other nations. Canada has the luxury of being able to be specific about what we are not. America still thinks of itself in that way, too. Formerly, it was not British: now, it is not European.

It is part of the problem of European Union. Each nation identifies itself as not like the others. Narrowing the differences is what nation building is about.

[CrazyCanuck]

Why don't you respond to something i said? Are you ignoring what i'm saying so you don't have to accept that MAYBE, just maybe, you aren't right?

Very simple question. Can you describe your own identity without making a comparison to your neighbor or someone else?

Are you saying that Canada doesn't have an inferiority-complex?

Do you think that maybe it is better to stand for something, make a mistake, and learn from it? Or is it better to do nothing for fear of offending someone else? How is real progress achieved? I'm just curious as to what you think because you won't respond to those questions.