Was Canada Just Too Good To Be True?

[I miss Reagan]

Yep, and that "shitbird" Conservative Mulroney balooned the debt outa the park.

I'm sick of this revisionist history with respect to Mulroney. Get your facts straight.

For anyone interested in a balanced perspective on Mulroney:

Turmoil

[Guest eureka]

7% of all pollutants, August, which is not too bad given our share of the population.

Lead pollution is a relic of the past and we have not yet worked out how to curb it from those very large smelters that the US does not have but benefite from.

[Guest eureka]

Corruption in Quebec is rampant. There, though, they call it the promoting of the Quebec "nation."

Quebec spends vast sums of taxpayers money and taxpayer money from Canada, on nationalist and anti-federalist propaganda.

The "corruption" that is the interest of the moment would never have happend but foe Quebec problem. The sponsorship program was an attempt to counter the Quebec government's anti-Canadian activities AND their ongoing expenditures for the last 30 years: expenditures that enter every part of Quebec life not just advertising companies.

[Canuck E Stan]

In regards to the Sponsorship Program, if Ford or Coca-Cola operated a selling program like this one, they would be out of business. You would have to question the Program portion of it. It appears that the government didn't have a "Program" at all, it was left to ad agencies to make suggestions. Where was the Government propaganda machine that everyone thought would convince Quebecors to love Canada.A dismail failure since the Bloc has gained support. The blame for Bloc support lies soley on the Liberals who NOW are crying for national unity and blaming the Conservatives for it's demise.

[PatM]

I'm sick of this revisionist history with respect to Mulroney.  Get your facts straight.

For anyone interested in a balanced perspective on Mulroney:

Turmoil

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Revisionist history? That chart is from STATISTICS CANADA and it shows the national debt. When Trudeau left the debt was about 50 billion. When Mulroney left, the debt was about 400 billion. That is historical fact - period.

Both Trudeau and Mulroney had the ability to restore the bank act to its former state, both chose not to. Mulroney just kept borrowing money from his financial friends and even forced the GST on us to pay all the interest being paid to his buddies.

When he leaves where does he go? Why, Power Financial Corporation of course - one of the richest financial institutions in Canada.

I honestly don't know about Trudeau - benefit of the doubt means I have to assume he was crooked too 8)

I can't see Martin or Chretien being oblivious to the problems the banking changes created yet neither wants to do anything about it. Then again, Chretien's daughter, France, is married to Power Financial Corp's owner's son. Martin was a President there and purchased his shipping line from them as well.

Everything seems to revolve around Power Financial. Wonder why our media companies never mention the place.

[Riverwind]

Revisionist history? That chart is from STATISTICS CANADA and it shows the national debt. When Trudeau left the debt was about 50 billion. When Mulroney left, the debt was about 400 billion. That is historical fact - period.

Lies, damned lies and statistics ;-)

First, that chart shows the absolute value of the debt. It is not adjusted for inflation nor is it compared to the GDP.

Second, Mulroney inherited a debt and a large number of spending commitments from Trudeau that could not be cut without severe political consequences (same thing would be true if Harper got in today). So a lot of the debt added in the Mulroney years was created by policies that Trudeau put in place.

[PatM]

Lies, damned lies and statistics ;-)

First, that chart shows the absolute value of the debt. It is not adjusted for inflation nor is it compared to the GDP.

Second, Mulroney inherited a debt and a large number of spending commitments from Trudeau that could not be cut without severe political consequences (same thing would be true if Harper got in today). So a lot of the debt added in the Mulroney years was created by policies that Trudeau put in place.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Invalid excuse - Martin also inherited debt, 10 times larger than Mulroney did and with the spending commitments he couldn't break without political repurcussions. He turned it around pretty quick and got re-elected all the same.

He did it the wrong way, but at least he did it.

[Riverwind]

Invalid excuse - Martin also inherited debt, 10 times larger than Mulroney did and with the spending commitments he couldn't break without political repurcussions. He turned it around pretty quick and got re-elected all the same.

He did it the wrong way, but at least he did it.

He was able to make the necessary cuts and retain popularity because Canadians had stopped denying there was a problem so it was politically possible to make cuts that Mulroney couldn't.

Second, the Liberals benefited from structural changes brought in by the Mulroney govt such as the GST.

[August1991]

The story is in the interest rate. See this graph of the US prime rate. Note that it was consistently low starting from around 1994.

Canadian rates were similar to American rates.

Note too that rates started to climb around 1980 as the restrictive monetary policy took effect. These high nominal (and real) rates were the cost of breaking inflationary expectations. Let's hope the US Fed has learned its lesson.

[The Terrible Sweal]

Mulroney supported and sustained the very high interest rate policy that was bankrupting the country.

[Riverwind]

Mulroney supported and sustained the very high interest rate policy that was bankrupting the country.

The gov't only has theoretical control over the interest rates. Any attempt to manipulate the BOC interest rates would have caused the Canadian dollar to plumet and make it impossible for the gov't to finance its debt.

[August1991]

Mulroney supported and sustained the very high interest rate policy that was bankrupting the country.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Gerald Bouey (a Liberal appointee) started the restrictive monetary policy and John Crow continued it. There was no choice in the matter.

The lesson of the 1950-80 period is that central banks must be independent of governments and must concentrate on price stability.

The economic growth we have enjoyed since the 1990s has been due in part to the price stability achieved by those monetary policies in the 1980s.

The gov't only has theoretical control over the interest rates.

The Bank of Canada has more-or-less control over certain nominal interest rates. Real interest rates are something else again since they depend critically on inflationary expectations.

[Guest eureka]

O posted this in the "other thread" that is touching on Mulroney's record. Don't know which suits it better so am adding it here, too.

QUOTE

Mulroney tore down Canada's southern wall. Almost simultaneously, he switched the balance of the federal tax system from income to spending. By leaving Canada's deficits to soar, he forced his successors to destroy public programs and institutions Tories had helped create and neo-conservatives now deplored. Love him or hate him, the only two-term Conservative prime minister of this century left an indelible mark.

This is from something by Prof. Desmond Morton that is kind to Mulroney and also thinks he "had a bad rap."

It about sums the argument without the fairy tale of interest rate

[Riverwind]

The gov't only has theoretical control over the interest rates.

The Bank of Canada has more-or-less control over certain nominal interest rates. Real interest rates are something else again since they depend critically on inflationary expectations.

The Bank of Canada is not the gov't. The only power the prime minister has to affect the policies of the BOC in through his choice for the governor. And even then, the PM is limited in terms of the type of people he appoints if he wants to maintain confidence in Canadian monetary policy.

[The Terrible Sweal]

Mulroney supported and sustained the very high interest rate policy that was bankrupting the country.

The gov't only has theoretical control over the interest rates. Any attempt to manipulate the BOC interest rates would have caused the Canadian dollar to plumet and make it impossible for the gov't to finance its debt.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The government selects the BOC governor and is said to have 'moral suasion' with the Governor to have monetary policy work as a complement to government policy. Manipulation? No. Policy setting, yes.