Bernier's Party at 13% in the polls

[Argus]

5 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Except the mainstream left will dominate, and be able to declare right-wing posters illegal !  

So you're saying the Left is fundamentally undemocratic and does not believe in freedom of speech or expression?

Edited September 16, 2018 by Argus

[turningrite]

On 9/15/2018 at 5:57 PM, taxme said:

Why don't you just all admit it to yourselves that you are just a pawn on a chessboard and that there never will be a better mousetrap invented and built. Your head is already stuck in a mousetrap that is going to keep your head held down by the mousetrap spring forever. The political system in Canada is totally rigged in the favor of corporations, banksters, special interest groups and leftist liberal and conservative party's that are hell bent on keeping your head stuck tight in that corrupt mousetrap forever. You are a nobody. Live with it. 

Hopefully you actually believe there is still a chance real democracy might prevail. Otherwise, why even vote? There was in interesting column by Andrew Coyne in the NP the other day about why Bernier's party might be the tonic Canadian politics actually needs. As Coyne notes, the established parties cater to "narrow and particular interests" rather than the broader public interest and in so doing have encouraged a state devoted almost entirely to redistributing income "to well-organized and well-cultivated client groups." This is about as sad a commentary on the state of Canadian democracy as one might imagine to be the case. Coyne feels that Bernier's views on immigration don't necessarily fit neatly with his more libertarian economic remedies but is willing to give the immigration debate a chance in order to see if Bernier can bring the rest of his agenda to the table. I believe Bernier's experiment might be the country's last chance for real democratic reform before the globalist system with Canadian characteristics (i.e. protection of cartels, monopolies and oligopolies) becomes a runaway train in this country.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/andrew-coyne-there-is-room-in-canadian-politics-for-maxime-berniers-worthy-experiment

Edited September 17, 2018 by turningrite

[Wilber]

Bernier is an isolationist when it comes to immigration and a globalist when it comes to trade.

[Machjo]

 

Bernier is an isolationist when it comes to immigration and a globalist when it comes to trade.

Not really. He just wants to reduce immigration rates to the same as Harper's time. Personally though, I disagree with numerical quotas altogether. Instead, we should aim at specific personal criteria and he who meets them is welcome to Canada.

[turningrite]

 

Bernier is an isolationist when it comes to immigration and a globalist when it comes to trade.

Bernier is not actually an isolationist on immigration. My understanding is that he believes immigration levels and rules need to be adjusted to suit the needs and interests of the Canadian economy. Too many immigrants perform poorly upon arriving in Canada and too often continue to do so for quite some time, becoming an ongoing drain on public resources. Economically, of course, Bernier's views tilt toward libertarianism, or government non-interference in the economy. But as the famous libertarian economist Milton Friedman once noted, open immigration cannot realistically co-exist with a welfare state model. Bernier's party, if it comes to power, will have to pull back on immigration and work to curb the welfare state before easing up on immigration policy. It's the only rational and fair solution.

[Machjo]

 

Bernier is not actually an isolationist on immigration. My understanding is that he believes immigration levels and rules need to be adjusted to suit the needs and interests of the Canadian economy. Too many immigrants perform poorly upon arriving in Canada and too often continue to do so for quite some time, becoming an ongoing drain on public resources. Economically, of course, Bernier's views tilt toward libertarianism, or government non-interference in the economy. But as the famous libertarian economist Milton Friedman once noted, open immigration cannot realistically co-exist with a welfare state model. Bernier's party, if it comes to power, will have to pull back on immigration and work to curb the welfare state before easing up on immigration policy. It's the only rational and fair solution.

Good point. I think we do need a national debate on that: do we maintain the welfare state or open up to more immigration: Can't have both!

[taxme]

 

Hopefully you actually believe there is still a chance real democracy might prevail. Otherwise, why even vote? There was in interesting column by Andrew Coyne in the NP the other day about why Bernier's party might be the tonic Canadian politics actually needs. As Coyne notes, the established parties cater to "narrow and particular interests" rather than the broader public interest and in so doing have encouraged a state devoted almost entirely to redistributing income "to well-organized and well-cultivated client groups." This is about as sad a commentary on the state of Canadian democracy as one might imagine to be the case. Coyne feels that Bernier's views on immigration don't necessarily fit neatly with his more libertarian economic remedies but is willing to give the immigration debate a chance in order to see if Bernier can bring the rest of his agenda to the table. I believe Bernier's experiment might be the country's last chance for real democratic reform before the globalist system with Canadian characteristics (i.e. protection of cartels, monopolies and oligopolies) becomes a runaway train in this country.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/andrew-coyne-there-is-room-in-canadian-politics-for-maxime-berniers-worthy-experiment

For real democracy to happen in Canada there must first be an interest and concern as to what is going on in politics in Canada today by Canadians. So far, I do not see any interest at all. As I said, most Canadians heads are and will always be stuck in that mousetrap. Whether they vote for the liberal or conservative party's it will make no difference because both those two party's could careless about Canadians and do not have their interests and the well being of Canadians. One is dumb and the other is dumber. Our politicians think more about the rest of the world and it's poor refugees and special interest groups then they appear to do about their own Canadian people. Canadians would be a lot better off today and maybe have a lot more of their money in their pockets if they showed a lot more interest and concern as to how their tax dollars are being wasted every day. As long as sports, mall shopping, some kind of social party event or constantly keep running for this or for that find a cure event is all that is important to them well nothing will ever change. One can be lucky if one can get more than ten people to come to an event where the wasting of taxpayer's tax dollars is the topic.

I do not see that mousetrap spring from ever being lifted off our heads at all. Just watch after the next election. It will be politics and business as usual. This is Canada, don't you know? 

 

[Army Guy]

 

Good point. I think we do need a national debate on that: do we maintain the welfare state or open up to more immigration: Can't have both!

I think there are more options out there to immigration question, I mean how much do we spend on immigration every year, the last figures I have are well over 20 bil....

I also have issues with current immigration policies, being able to buy a citizenship for one, just being born here qualifies you for citizenship regardless of what nationality you are. , then there is the citizenship of convenience such what was observed in the evac of Canadian citizens in Lebanon years ago, when the Canadian forces had to rent ships to evac over 50,000 Canadians living in Lebanon, citizens that  owned a CDN passport but have lived in foreign nations for more than 5 years without paying taxes. there is a lot more....

[Michael Hardner]

 

I think there are more options out there to immigration question, I mean how much do we spend on immigration every year, the last figures I have are well over 20 bil....

I also have issues with current immigration policies, being able to buy a citizenship for one, 

Here is the classic example of damned if you do or you don't.... we don't want to spend money on immigration, and yet we don't want to charge money for immigration either.

Let alone the fact that the poster hasn't articulated even the possibility of there being some economic advantages to immigration... this is why our national dialogue on this is so shitty.  Nobody knows how to discuss immigration.

[Michael Hardner]

 

So you're saying the Left is fundamentally undemocratic and does not believe in freedom of speech or expression?

No, no.  Just me.

[Army Guy]

 

Here is the classic example of damned if you do or you don't.... we don't want to spend money on immigration, and yet we don't want to charge money for immigration either.

Let alone the fact that the poster hasn't articulated even the possibility of there being some economic advantages to immigration... this is why our national dialogue on this is so shitty.  Nobody knows how to discuss immigration.

Fair enough Michael, I did not articulate my point very well, I thought that this has been beaten to death already. I not sure where you stand on this topic, I assume you agree with the Immigration is the end all be all , that it creates more benefits than it costs.....Yes it does create some benefits....and yet plenty of info has already been posted that suggests that it does not come close to covering the overall costs of immigration in this country.....one has to be careful when talking about immigration and if your against it your a racist....because those that are in power are convinced immigration is the key....any talk of limiting it is racist or some foreign right wing idea.....

The problem is that our native population is not having enough kids...this is not the first time this country has faced this problem....what if we spent that 20 bil on our native Canadian population, convincing them that having more than 1 or 2 children can be done. One solution would be increase family allowance, well over 20 bil goes a long way, another would be free day care, in some cases families are putting out 40 to 50 % of their income on daycare.....there is a shit tone of ideas that could put this money back into Canadian pockets, increasing our population to where it makes a difference, and still providing the economical benefit as immigrants....

We have been immigrating people for along time and yet some how we can not import enough to make a difference....it is one big circle....

[Michael Hardner]

 

Fair enough Michael, I did not articulate my point very well, I thought that this has been beaten to death already. I not sure where you stand on this topic, I assume you agree with the Immigration is the end all be all , that it creates more benefits than it costs.....Yes it does create some benefits....and yet plenty of info has already been posted that suggests that it does not come close to covering the overall costs of immigration in this country.....one has to be careful when talking about immigration and if your against it your a racist....because those that are in power are convinced immigration is the key....any talk of limiting it is racist or some foreign right wing idea..... 

I have said that  
"We are now down to 4 ways to talk about immigration:- How will it play in the election ?- Anybody who brings up immigration is racist - Anybody who brings up talking about immigration being racist is anti-free speech - The Muslims/Chinese/Jews/Blacks are destroying white society"

If people don't want immigration then there's no denying it.  Politicians of every stripe seem to struggle with the issue though...

[Army Guy]

I'm not against NO immigration, I think that there is a better ratio out there, ie other solutions, / immigration numbers but for some reason nobody even wants to discuss it , we are fixated on immigration like it is written in the bible and into our national law.....

Edited September 18, 2018 by Army Guy

[eyeball]

 

we are fixated on immigration like it is written in the bible and into our national law.....

That's because economic growth trumps everything.

There is one rational argument for limiting immigration that has nothing to do with race at all -  the need to conserve our natural capital so we can sustain ourselves into the future.

But that would mean accepting that economic growth needs to slow, stop and probably even shrink - and to many people this scenario is basically the Apocalypse so....economics trumps everything, even racism.

Stuck between a rock and a stupid place we are.

[Michael Hardner]

 

 Stuck between a rock and a stupid place we are.

So if we cut the racists, xenophobes AND the people who promote immigration as a salve to racism AND we add people to the conversation who can explain trade-offs between the economy, and the environment then it sounds like that would be an interesting conversation.

Maybe.

[eyeball]

 

So if we cut the racists, xenophobes AND the people who promote immigration as a salve to racism AND we add people to the conversation who can explain trade-offs between the economy, and the environment then it sounds like that would be an interesting conversation.

Maybe.

I suspect the conversation will still be rife with lol's, rolling eyes and references to Stalin. Pol Pot et al - it is what it is.

[turningrite]

 

I'm not against NO immigration, I think that there is a better ratio out there, ie other solutions, / immigration numbers but for some reason nobody even wants to discuss it , we are fixated on immigration like it is written in the bible and into our national law.....

Army Guy: Our traditional parties, and especially the Libs and NDP, have worked hard to demonize those who raise valid concerns about immigration, particularly where the costs to taxpayers related to our current policies are concerned. By some estimates, the government's policy of allowing an annual intake of 20,000 foreign grannies and grandpas, who've never paid taxes in Canada, adds an 4 to 5 billion dollars annually to health care costs, half of this amount being borne by already stressed Ontario taxpayers as health care costs for sponsored immigrants are funded by provincial treasuries. As a person who's experienced the dismal state of Ontario's current health care rationing scheme, this alarms me greatly. But we're not allowed to talk about it, because, well, to refuse to suffer in silence is apparently racist.  

[eyeball]

 

As a person who's experienced the dismal state of Ontario's current health care rationing scheme, this alarms me greatly. But we're not allowed to talk about it, because, well, to refuse to suffer in silence is apparently racist.  

They actually ration health care in Ontario? You showed up for extra health care but you were over your allotment and got turned away?   Did you try to shoulder your way past a brown person in the queue by any chance?   I can see how that might piss someone off.

[turningrite]

 

They actually ration health care in Ontario? You showed up for extra health care but you were over your allotment and got turned away?   Did you try to shoulder your way past a brown person in the queue by any chance?   I can see how that might piss someone off.

I've languished on gurneys for days in emergency rooms as an "admitted" patient, getting almost no sleep and having to share a filthy bathroom with dozens of other patients and their visitors, before scoring an actual acute care bed. Try brushing your teeth at a sink covered in hair and vomit, as I've had to do. And I've waited months for medically necessary surgery, including eye surgery, because, well, the resources simply aren't there to do these things on a timely basis. I've waited for several hours to see specialists for scheduled medical visits. And I've waited months and even years just to see specialists to whom I've been referred. Oh, and I was approved for out of country specialist care for what is believed to be a rare and possibly genetic condtion, which I was unable to pursue at least in part because the American hospital to which I was being referred told me that Ontario's system covers only a small part of the amount of such care and I would have had to assume an uncapped liability for the remainder, likely amounting to tens of thousands of dollars. The representative for the American hospital told me that Canadian patients are considered to be "uninsured" in the American system, an assertion that certainly burst any sense of superiority I might have felt about our health care model.  It's these kinds of experiences that justify my opinion about rationing. We have universal health care coverage in name only - at least in Ontario.

[Army Guy]

 

That's because economic growth trumps everything.

There is one rational argument for limiting immigration that has nothing to do with race at all -  the need to conserve our natural capital so we can sustain ourselves into the future.

But that would mean accepting that economic growth needs to slow, stop and probably even shrink - and to many people this scenario is basically the Apocalypse so....economics trumps everything, even racism.

Stuck between a rock and a stupid place we are.

That's bullshit, if that was the case we would have nothing but rich old bastards buying citizenship , or ruling out anyone not beneficial to the economy such as grannies, foreign medical cases, babies born to foreigners in Canada etc etc....our current policies don't support your case, the gates are open according to Justin, and people believe that this is the only solution to our problems.....

[-1=e^ipi]

Ensaf Haidar, the wife of Raif Badawi, the jailed Saudi Blogger, has joined the people's party. This is pretty expected if you have been following her on twitter. Maybe she will be a candidate in the next election.

[eyeball]

 

That's bullshit, if that was the case we would have nothing but rich old bastards buying citizenship , or ruling out anyone not beneficial to the economy such as grannies, foreign medical cases, babies born to foreigners in Canada etc etc..

According to some we do have lots of rich bastards buying their way in and their class still need lots of proles to keep growing their wealth at a rate that stays well ahead of the proles.  I bet a lot of immigrant grannies provide free day care for the proles.

The real bullshit is all the whining that immigration will increase social/health spending alongside the whining that we should increase social/health spending to encourage 'native' Canadians to have more babies. 

 

our current policies don't support your case, the gates are open according to Justin, and people believe that this is the only solution to our problems.....

I certainly don't, and lets face it the gates have been falling off their hinges for years now due in large part to our past policies and we haven't seen anything yet in terms of other consequences to those policies amongst which is a tsunami of human beings moving around the planet.  Another predictable consequence is the racial backlash to that tsunami and again, we haven't seen anything yet. 

[Michael Hardner]

 

I've languished on gurneys for days in emergency rooms as an "admitted" patient, getting almost no sleep and having to share a filthy bathroom with dozens of other patients and their visitors, before scoring an actual acute care bed. ...

20,000 grandmas and grandpas in Canada don't do this.  I would submit that if we paid attention to costs and service levels - if we even had a way to discuss such things intelligently - then things would be better.  Funny how so many of these things come down to the arguments being too dumb, and immigration too.

Edited September 19, 2018 by Michael Hardner

[turningrite]

 

20,000 grandmas and grandpas in Canada don't do this.  I would submit that if we paid attention to costs and service levels - if we even had a way to discuss such things intelligently - then things would be better.  Funny how so many of these things come down to the arguments being too dumb, and immigration too.

Michael Hardner: What an ignorant and poorly reasoned perspective you bring to the table on this. Obviously, you've never had to deal with a really serious illness in the context of Ontario's no longer universal (unless one interprets it as universally inadequate) health care system. My view on this is based on cold, hard experience. If the system actually worked when I most need it to I'd likely have a different perspective. Ontario can't afford immigrant seniors entering the system when it can't offer decent health care to its citizens who've dutifully paid taxes to support the system for decades. I think that's a pretty reasonable and fair comment. Perhaps if you too live in Ontario you'll become seriously ill and figure this out for yourself.

[eyeball]

 

If the system actually worked when I most need it to I'd likely have a different perspective.

I hear you, and that's exactly what happened in my case in BC with regard to health care.  After what I thought was just a flu that wouldn't quit I jumped into my boat one morning and went to the doctors office and 20 minutes later he was on the phone to a hospital 100 km down the road. A couple hours later I was going beep beep beep on a bed with a couple of doctors puzzling over what was wrong with me.  It took them 8 days of poking, prodding, scanning and experimenting to finally figure it out and I probably would have died a few days after that if they hadn't.  6 days later I was released and I've been fine since.  I do have to say the food really really sucked. I mean...it was so bad death was starting to look better.  For years I've also been monitored every six months for an unrelated heart condition I was born with and again I have zero complaints. I appreciate the fact the system can arrange my appointments in one day given the distances I have to travel, 200 km in this case.

Sounds like it sucks to be sick in Ontario. Given what I've seen of other issues in Ontario the fundamental problem is probably good accountable government and lack thereof.  Its not that we don't have that problem too it just seems worse in Ontario and it apparently affects your health system worse.

AFAIC the fundamental problem in virtually every case across a wide spectrum  of government services is a lack of political accountability.  The problem is entrenched at the top in Ottawa and the often filthy example this sets trickles down thru the rest.  The management of our fisheries from Ottawa is what altered my perspective - to the point I'd happily separate BC from Canada.

Edited September 19, 2018 by eyeball