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5 minutes ago, turningrite said:

We were waiting for assisted death. Now that we have it our health care system can continue to deteriorate because the final option is available.

Nah, there's still a bunch of insanely restrictive conditions on it.

Our health care system will continue to decline until it puts prevention before cure.

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3 hours ago, h102 said:

Its an elective surgery though, and the cost went down even in countries that government pay for it, so big fail for your free market superior claim.  No free market can cover poor people and minors because they don't have money.

Uhhhh freemarket does not differentiate elective surgery or not, that's a fictional categorization by socialist to deny care through wait time. Cost went down yes but are there more doctors going into said profession to provide said care ? Because the government does not provide as much profit as opposed to the free market system so to tell me that you are able to get more expedient care under a socilized system would be a lie. I can walk into any optometrist right now to get my laser eye surgery. How long would I have to wait for this elective surgery? This is the problem with socialized healthcare, it cannot provide quality AND expediency AND cost reduction. Only freemarket can provide all three through the profit motive.

I love debating socialist, their war on the profit motive is what makes them inherently evil.

Edited by paxamericana
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1 hour ago, bcsapper said:

Nah, there's still a bunch of insanely restrictive conditions on it.

 

I've had three friends/acquaintances and a relative who've obtained an assisted death since it was approved. I think medical professionals are largely giving those with significant illnesses the benefit of the doubt where their patients seek an assisted death. Reports suggest that in some medical settings assisted death is now being encouraged, as in the case of the guy in London Ontario who recorded staff recommending this option to him. And he's only seeking compassionate care to deal with a chronic illness. One cannot expect compassionate care, apparently, as we can't afford it. Assisted death is the system's preferred choice. I had a friend who last year chose assisted death rather than return to hospital. And as I live with a serious degenerative illness, it's my plan to do so as well. As more Canadians get older they'll begin to realize how degraded and unreliable our health care system has become. The next step, of course, is advance directives. It's a travesty that the current system doesn't permit them. Canadians will demand it. Maybe we could set up death wards to do this efficiently and keep a coroner on standby. Nah, we don't generally do efficiency in this country.

Edited by turningrite
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1 hour ago, turningrite said:

Your stupider ilk? To whom are you referring?

People who can't utter anything without including some ideologically deprecating comment.

Quote

I'm a non-ideologue,

Bullshit. It would still be as obvious as the day as long even if your name was turninginward.

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1 hour ago, eyeball said:

 

Bullshit. It would still be as obvious as the day as long even if your name was turninginward.

I suspect you're a troll. One can shift to the right without going all Trump. My views were once more-or-less on the progressive side of the spectrum, until I figured out the left in this country has become a sham. Now I make up my mind on an issue-by-issue basis, which presumably you do not do.

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On 8/23/2018 at 10:06 AM, paxamericana said:

Uhhhh freemarket does not differentiate elective surgery or not, that's a fictional categorization by socialist to deny care through wait time. Cost went down yes but are there more doctors going into said profession to provide said care ? Because the government does not provide as much profit as opposed to the free market system so to tell me that you are able to get more expedient care under a socilized system would be a lie. I can walk into any optometrist right now to get my laser eye surgery. How long would I have to wait for this elective surgery? This is the problem with socialized healthcare, it cannot provide quality AND expediency AND cost reduction. Only freemarket can provide all three through the profit motive.

I love debating socialist, their war on the profit motive is what makes them inherently evil.

Actually it does, its called supply and demand have elasticity.  Elective surgeries are highly elastic, one can delay it.  Mandatory surgeries are inelastic, you need it so you must pay whatever the price is.  When you have an elastic demand which increases when the price drops, more people jump in.  If you lower the price of a bypass surgery, you won't get a whole lot more people realizing they have heart attacks and paying for the surgery.  However, if you lower the price of an elective procedure like breast implants, alot more people will do it.

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2 hours ago, h102 said:

Actually it does, its called supply and demand have elasticity.  Elective surgeries are highly elastic, one can delay it.  Mandatory surgeries are inelastic, you need it so you must pay whatever the price is.  When you have an elastic demand which increases when the price drops, more people jump in.  If you lower the price of a bypass surgery, you won't get a whole lot more people realizing they have heart attacks and paying for the surgery.  However, if you lower the price of an elective procedure like breast implants, alot more people will do it.

I think you're confusing cosmetic surgery with elective surgery. Within the health care system in this country elective surgery generally means having to live with an often debilitating medical condition while one waits for a surgery spot to open up. Some of those waiting are immobile and wait for hip or knee replacements. Others, like me, suffer significant eye diseases and have to wait for surgery because, well, being nearly blind won't kill you, right? Others are put on heavy duty medications to allow them to endure and/or survive waiting periods, often suffering debilitating side effects. To trivialize the waits for elective surgeries effectively trivializes the plight of tens of thousands with serious and/or chronic debilitating conditions who are simply abandoned by the health care  bureaucracy for months or in many cases years.

Edited by turningrite
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7 hours ago, h102 said:

Actually it does, its called supply and demand have elasticity.  Elective surgeries are highly elastic, one can delay it.  Mandatory surgeries are inelastic, you need it so you must pay whatever the price is.  When you have an elastic demand which increases when the price drops, more people jump in.  If you lower the price of a bypass surgery, you won't get a whole lot more people realizing they have heart attacks and paying for the surgery.  However, if you lower the price of an elective procedure like breast implants, alot more people will do it.

Okay fair point, if everything is un regulated then yes demand elasticity would come into effect. But we both know the socialist would never stand for that...:rolleyes:

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On 8/27/2018 at 2:50 PM, paxamericana said:

Okay fair point, if everything is un regulated then yes demand elasticity would come into effect. But we both know the socialist would never stand for that...:rolleyes:

This posts makes no sense. In an highly regulated market, you are not going to buy more bypass surgeries.  In a no regulation market, you aren't going to buy more bypass surgery.  You are only getting it, if you need it.  You entire claim was based on a false premise that a free market healthcare system drops the cost of eye surgery faster.  It doesn't.  In fact US has the highest healthcare cost of any nation, and its not even in the top 10 of healthcare.

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4 minutes ago, h102 said:

This posts makes no sense. In an highly regulated market, you are not going to buy more bypass surgeries.  In a no regulation market, you aren't going to buy more bypass surgery.  You are only getting it, if you need it.  You entire claim was based on a false premise that a free market healthcare system drops the cost of eye surgery faster.  It doesn't.  In fact US has the highest healthcare cost of any nation, and its not even in the top 10 of healthcare.

eye surgery is unregulated. so in that particular case it is part of the free market system. My point and yours was the due to in elasticity of demand, free market condition would encourage price gouging. The reality however is we have a mixed healthcare system of free market on certain care and socialized on other such as emergency care. 

Edited by paxamericana
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6 hours ago, paxamericana said:

eye surgery is unregulated. so in that particular case it is part of the free market system. My point and yours was the due to in elasticity of demand, free market condition would encourage price gouging. The reality however is we have a mixed healthcare system of free market on certain care and socialized on other such as emergency care. 

I think the mixed market approach is the only reasonable solution in both the U.S. and Canada. The main problem is to find the correct balance in each country. The American system relies too heavily on the private market and thus in the absence of a "public option" insurance alternative promotes monopoly and/or oligopoly. The Canadian system, which for basic and necessary health services is a public monopoly, now relies essentially on rationing, which is a clearly sub-optimal approach. The price elasticity principle, of course, generates higher prices when demand for any necessity exceeds supply, suggesting that the Canadian system is far worse off than its American counterpart, where access cost is the main policy concern. As the supply of health services has been so constrained in most Canadian jurisdictions for so long adopting a strictly private market approach would create chaos and result in skyrocketing prices. I believe the Canadian system has to target private market insurance at meeting particular needs before entirely opening up the public monopoly to competition. The U.S. is actually in a more advantageous position and has more room to manoeuver to resolve its access cost and services cost problems.

Edited by turningrite
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On 8/21/2018 at 11:16 AM, turningrite said:

Cynical politicians like Trudeau don't and won't acknowledge the link between immigration and declining public services even though I suspect most Canadians clearly understand it. I think the health care system is too far gone to be adequately reformed within the current model. Rather, I believe we should permit the sale of private health insurance and otherwise attach eligibility for health care services to objective eligibility criteria like length of residency in Canada in combination with the number of years people have filed and paid taxes, with a combination of say 25 to 35 required to establish eligibility for benefits for all of those older than 40.

I completely agree with the implementation of a private health insurance for residents that have not yet contributed to the system, especially in the case of immigration to Canada for the purpose of economic gains. However, how does a system like this take into account those that seek asylum in Canada? The application of quality healthcare to  asylum seeking immigrants is often a key cause of refugee seeking residence in Canada. Providing much needed care is also a means of ensuring that new Canadian residence become, working, able bodied, tax paying members of our society.  

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