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The Great Immigration Debate


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Politics needs to be more international if it is to stop all the associated problems of migrations everywhere.

I'm not sure what can be done or if anything can be done anymore. I don't believe we'd actually be able to unify the world without realistic solutions to limits on wealth and inheritance rights everywhere first.

So, for now, while it may be unpleasing to some, immigration needs to be curbed regardless of any emotional concern. I wouldn't want to be anyone desperate enough to migrate and feel for them but we cannot let our emotions from here dictate that we open our doors. Let's first deal with the opposite internal problems: those suffering here exclusively. We can't help others if we can't be healthy ourselves. 

But this also means we'd have to cap unlimited growth to specific people, provide minimal capital rights of ownership by all here, and NOT exploit the outside economies either for our own benefits individually or as a whole.

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3 minutes ago, Scott Mayers said:

Politics needs to be more international if it is to stop all the associated problems of migrations everywhere.

I'm not sure what can be done or if anything can be done anymore. I don't believe we'd actually be able to unify the world without realistic solutions to limits on wealth and inheritance rights everywhere first.

So, for now, while it may be unpleasing to some, immigration needs to be curbed regardless of any emotional concern. I wouldn't want to be anyone desperate enough to migrate and feel for them but we cannot let our emotions from here dictate that we open our doors. Let's first deal with the opposite internal problems: those suffering here exclusively. We can't help others if we can't be healthy ourselves. 

But this also means we'd have to cap unlimited growth to specific people, provide minimal capital rights of ownership by all here, and NOT exploit the outside economies either for our own benefits individually or as a whole.

Hmm interesting views. I see immigration as a solution to a shrinking native population, something America has been very good at. Often times legal immigrant work harder and are more productive then people who are born here with all the advantages it carries. 

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47 minutes ago, paxrom said:

Hmm interesting views. I see immigration as a solution to a shrinking native population, something America has been very good at. Often times legal immigrant work harder and are more productive then people who are born here with all the advantages it carries. 

 

I think this is true for many immigrants, as the need for cheap labour has been the principle driver for immigration over U.S. history (not the Statue of Liberty motto), slavery notwithstanding (slaves were not immigrants).   Immigrants from Europe and Asia flooded America in controlled spurts, working hard (and some dying) in industry, railroads, mining, agriculture, military, etc.    They still faced discrimination and other challenges upon arrival, but that was just part of paying their dues, making some super patriots. That's because they knew what it was like not to have such opportunities (or worse) back home.

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1 hour ago, paxrom said:

Hmm interesting views. I see immigration as a solution to a shrinking native population, something America has been very good at. Often times legal immigrant work harder and are more productive then people who are born here with all the advantages it carries. 

Population growth is driven by evolution without compassion in an accelerating way. We are bound to the same laws of physics that first assure that energy is conserved though. Any population increase locally draws energy from other parts of the world and makes us appear more successful. This then, though, makes those in the low-energy places try to steal that energy back by making more babies that can only work if it the overall population of people in the world remains stable and in place where they are born. But when they discover their environment cannot keep their babies alive, they are deluded to go to where more energy concentration exists.

The law of thermodynamics regarding 'entropy' (tendency to disorder) increases until all its parts are distributed. So increased population on the whole MUST reduce each member's share of the wealth. Yet only some people are getting even wealthier! ??

The immigrant appears to work harder ONLY because they are strengthened with better power coming into a new improved place compared to those born here in the same economic conditions. Employers are more easily able to exploit the new comer but the new-comer has the advantage over those 'native' to the land because of their recent history of suffering from where they came from. If we expect those here to have the same mentality, it would require us to abuse those here to the same degree of those elsewhere. And so this creates an incentive to both harm our own poor while favoring those who come from those 'evil' places.

And so it DOES penalize those poor here! We have better compassion for those strangers of places that have an overall normal balance of poverty than to those born at home. So we ignore AND abuse those here MORE because those empowered to employ them falsely interpret their own place of beneficial wealth as distributed to those poor people here also.

And you just proved it when you say, " Often times legal immigrant work harder and are more productive then people who are born here with all the advantages it carries. " This only tells me that you interpret our own as 'spoiled' and it gets reflected upon by HOW employers treat our own poor when or if they even hire them. So why would the poor here WANT to work for the employer here who would dismiss them as though they were their own ungrateful children who are assumed to be well fed but ungrateful when they are NOT!?

Edited by Scott Mayers
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18 hours ago, turningrite said:

I think immigration mainly works well for the U.S., primarily because immigrants have to work and contribute to the economy in order to survive. Unlike Canada, where generous social programs, including publicly funded health care, are available almost immediately to immigrants, this is not the case south of the border. I recently read an article estimating net tax proceeds paid by recent immigrants into tax coffers in the U.S. exceed $60 billion (U.S.) annually. In Canada, on the other hand, it's estimated that recent immigrants constitute a net drain tax drain exceeding $30 billion (CDN) annually. That being said, I think all countries must have secure borders. It's a primary hallmark of effective sovereignty. In the U.S. I think a bigger issue than in Canada (although we're getting there) is the problem of uncontrolled migration and I believe concern about this problem is valid.

Do you even know about the American immigration system which not only gives immigrants free healthcare, education, housing, social grants, funding and business loans but forces the banks to have special immigrant loans with no interest?  My ex use to work in a bank in New York and she was telling me how they are required to give X billions in loans to immigrants or else face federal government clampdown.

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5 hours ago, Scott Mayers said:

This only tells me that you interpret our own as 'spoiled' and it gets...

Yeah mate, I don't know why you wanted to bring the second law of thermal into this but people are just lazy ,mainly because they have these fall back safety net you liberals keep wanting to give them. There's no incentive to work harder if you can get free food, housing and other services. The fear of poverty is a treadmill, a good one too. 

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3 minutes ago, paxrom said:

Its actually true. Its a lot easier for them to get loan. Because they have no credit the government give them this ability. 

Additionally, there was a study I read back in business school, where Chinese and Korean immigrants were explaining how all those trade deals are really just set up to help Korean Americans and Chinese American immigrants to make money.  For instance, there was a case study where the Korean community leader in USA explained how they had the US government through political pressure give special economic favours for Korean products, which they got to in turn import as the producers in Korea are their relatives, friends, family, village members, or klan members etc.  The study talked about how the Koreans used their political power to basically get all non-Korean wigs tariff highly and the Chinese ones banned altogether.

 

In the case of hispanics, the us government pays illegal immigrants to set up businesses in their home country.  Imagine that, a citizen cannot get a loan, but an illegal can get a loan over a citizen and get paid loans to do so.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/04/16/its-all-your-money-us-aiding-business-start-ups-for-illegal-aliens.html

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1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

Cite ?

"

Wilson/Fish

The Wilson-Fish (WF) program is an alternative to traditional state administered refugee resettlement programs for providing assistance (cash and medical) and social services to refugees."

So much for the lie that the don't get free stuff.

 

"The purpose of the Wilson/Fish Alternative Program is to provide integrated services and cash assistance to increase refugees (and other Office of Refugee Resettlement populations) prospects for early employment and self-sufficiency. The program also aims to reduce their level of welfare dependence and promote coordination among voluntary resettlement agencies and services providers."

 

In order to qualify for this benefit program, you must be a refugee who was granted asylum and is now a U.S. citizen. You must also be of Amerasian, Cuban, or Haitian heritage, or a victim of trafficking.

 

That is the real reason Amerasians are doing so well..

https://www.benefits.gov/benefits/benefit-details/874

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15 minutes ago, H10 said:

Additionally, there was a study I read back in business school, where Chinese and Korean immigrants were explaining how all those trade deals are really just set up to help Korean Americans and Chinese American immigrants to make money.  

I haven't noticed you much as a poster, and now I can see that your posts come along with the wave of new posters who are addicted to posting utter horseshit and refusing to post cites.  This is where we are with politics now, and the tactic was taken from the strident Marxists of the 60s and 70s and picked up by Fox News to be used in this 'great immigration debate'.


Good luck with your echo chamber.

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Just now, H10 said:

 So much for the lie that the don't get free stuff.

Unbelievable.  You make a claim, and my request for a cite - which you initially refused - is now claimed as a "lie".

This was your claim and a vague 'program' doesn't satisfy it. 

Quote

gives immigrants free healthcare, education, housing, social grants, funding and business loans but forces the banks to have special immigrant loans with no interest?  

You have fallen short and appear to be more interested in posting falsehoods to please the team than actually discussing and exploring things in an interesting way.  I would recommend you watch how conservatives like Argus and BushCheney post here - they are long time posters.

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2 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I haven't noticed you much as a poster, and now I can see that your posts come along with the wave of new posters who are addicted to posting utter horseshit and refusing to post cites.  This is where we are with politics now, and the tactic was taken from the strident Marxists of the 60s and 70s and picked up by Fox News to be used in this 'great immigration debate'.


Good luck with your echo chamber.

There you go with name calling, I provided sources above and I did source the study I read.  Immigrants start businesses more because they have special no interest loans.  PERIOD.

"The government implemented the Assisted Passage Loan Scheme to help immigrants from Europe who could not pay their own transportation.  Loans were to be repaid over the two years following landing.  A version of this loan scheme continues to this day and is used by resettled refugees."

http://ccrweb.ca/sites/ccrweb.ca/files/static-files/canadarefugeeshistory3.htm

I'm sure if locals had access to free loans, we'd do much better as a group.

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I would like to point out to no one in particular that debate and discussion advances the public dialogue and presents closure on bad arguments as well as challenging incomplete ones.  If you come to the site to discuss immigration then you do not have all the answers, no matter who you are.  Please see the debate as a collaborative effort and a kind of non-zero-sum-game if you like.  

There is no winning or losing in this, unless you refuse to play properly.

The "good" thing about times like these is that it allows both sides to examine its fundamentals and explore new ideas, especially with regards to immigration, trade and the culmination of such policies into a future vision.

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Just now, H10 said:

1) There you go with name calling,  

2) I'm sure if locals had access to free loans, we'd do much better as a group.

1) I called you no names.  I said you post horseshit, which we have a few examples of.

2) When I eventually pulled a cite from you, like pulling teeth, it had scant details.  For example, aggregate numbers.  

Anyway, you blew your chance at having an interesting discussion when you scampered away from providing a cite when asked.  Good luck.

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1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

I would like to point out to no one in particular that debate and discussion advances the public dialogue and presents closure on bad arguments as well as challenging incomplete ones.  If you come to the site to discuss immigration then you do not have all the answers, no matter who you are.  Please see the debate as a collaborative effort and a kind of non-zero-sum-game if you like.  

There is no winning or losing in this, unless you refuse to play properly.

The "good" thing about times like these is that it allows both sides to examine its fundamentals and explore new ideas, especially with regards to immigration, trade and the culmination of such policies into a future vision.

Of course, I provided multiple sources, there are special loans for immigrants, are you denying this?

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9 hours ago, paxrom said:

Hmm interesting views. I see immigration as a solution to a shrinking native population, 

It's not. Not unless immigrants refuse to adapt the local culture and values. Because once they do become Americans they stop having large families, just like other Americans, and settle for one, maybe two kids at most. The only reason your birth rate is the ONLY healthy one in the West is because of all those Hispanic Catholic third world immigrants you've got, both legal and illegal. If they become Americans their birth rate goes down. And if you bring in enough of them to establish their own cultural identity then get ready for fights between Spanish language activists and the rest of you. 

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2 hours ago, paxrom said:

Yeah mate, I don't know why you wanted to bring the second law of thermal into this but people are just lazy ,mainly because they have these fall back safety net you liberals keep wanting to give them. There's no incentive to work harder if you can get free food, housing and other services. The fear of poverty is a treadmill, a good one too. 

True. Just look at your lazy ass president working 1 1/2 - 2 hrs a day with long golfing weekends every week.

Born to a rich family,  never developed a strong work ethic because he never needed to work.

Edited by Argus
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53 minutes ago, Argus said:

True. Just look at your lazy ass president working 1 1/2 - 2 hrs a day with long golfing weekends every week.

Born to a rich family,  never developed a strong work ethic because he never needed to work.

Yup wealth has the same effect. Affluenza as they call it. 

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14 hours ago, paxrom said:

Yeah mate, I don't know why you wanted to bring the second law of thermal into this but people are just lazy ,mainly because they have these fall back safety net you liberals keep wanting to give them. There's no incentive to work harder if you can get free food, housing and other services. The fear of poverty is a treadmill, a good one too. 

You likely are the 'lazy' one if you expect others to be more submissive in some power relationship over them when or where you hire them. People who are poor here need MORE of a gamble than they are provided....including the possibility of more leniency when or where they get hired. What you miss is that for even the average middle-class families, they receive a prior "kit" of support that is NOT even remotely a possibility for many:

(1) As kids, your wealthier children get an allowance they can FREELY use to buy things they 'want' versus what they 'need'. Poor kids not only lack this, but ANY earnings are often taken by the family. If their parents are themselves 'troubled', add the fact that most of these kids would not be able to KEEP what they earn.

(2) As kids, your children get to both have that allowance AND be permitted to work without requiring to use the earned money to pay rent or other necessities. This factor alone is not even ALLOWED where government services help the poor. That is, if a teen who is poor and tries to work at some McJob entry-level job, they are more often than not, required to pass that money on to necessities. Any earnings are never 'profitable' if they get government assistance because these get subtracted OR be removed from assistance even if they so much work for one hour. (volunteering labor is also illegal for these people and a justification to cancel their aid). This lack of being able to experience 'free' power to spend, including making stupid spending decisions, are not allowed. So the poor, as kids, do not even get this essential experience in handling money NOR being privileged to see the value of earning money given it is ALL taken from them.

(3) Essential entry-level needs (especially for males), is to require a CAR, something sufficient to prevent.

Your own arrogant 'conservatives' history in politics to cleverly use manipulative tactics to defeat the minimum wage REALITY towards those poor initially even getting an entry level job, ....most of which are reserved for your own wealthy spoiled brat children as stepping-stone jobs. The poor at home get eliminated from these type of jobs to favor your own wealthy kids because the employers would rather hire kids who don't NEED the money but WANT it for extras their parents permit them to spend freely.

(4) People who immigrate often are the more 'fortunate' of the impoverished of their countries of origins in either: Numbers of Supportive family members,  or being able to have the fortune of the money needed to GET HERE.

This means the people who even risk spending illegal costs associated with getting here, regardless of any abuses by the transporters or indemnity 'owners', the relative larger amount of the poor of those countries are NOT the ones who can even get here. This is because the poor are more isolated as individuals without being associated to some gang or strong family numbers.

(5) People get their first significant jobs by WHO their parents are. If they are middle-class, the middle-class working jobs are preferentially passed on to them with priority. For the wealthier, the children get easy recognition by their class level with priority. How they dress to how they behave....all of this is NOT due to some innate internal superiority over others who are poor but due to HOW they are treated growing up. [The better one IS, is due to HOW they were treated, not to their own superior willpower. ... an inferior mindset by the stupid wealthy who inappropriately interpret their success as ONLY due to themselves and not the fortunate environment that the very environment has provide them; To those who are treated badly by the environment, their self-reflected worth is due to that environment, not to some 'weak' will.]

 

There are others. But these should give you a suggestive start. The people who come here are simply the more better off ones who represent an even minor minority of those poor where they come from. The quantity of those coming here represent trivial quantities of the poor where they come from. All people everywhere are 'equal' in potential by the averages but only those who have the set of essentials provided by that "kit" even allows them to get past the initial doors needed to sustain worthwhile employment. You are spoiled as a 'conservative' for your own arrogance of not even willing to notice this.....understanding, given you ARE the 'spoiled' who are 'lazy thinkers'.

So don't blame this on some 'liberal' mindset. The 'liberal' mindset comes from those enslaved who demand the freedom to which "liberal", as a term, derives.

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Democrats may be setting themselves up for a big letdown in the 2018 midterms...."catch and release" for illegal immigrants is not a winning strategy.    Democrats took a beating when they shut down the federal government to favour illegals over citizens just a few months ago.

 

Quote

Today, New York City based political commentator, Ryan Girdusky, pointed out a statistic from a CBS poll released today that may surprise some Democratic officials – most Americans want parents and children who enter America illegally kept together as a unit, but prefer that the entire family is either detained or deported after they are caught crossing the border into America. In fact, just 21% of Americans believe that these illegal aliens and their offspring should be released into American streets.

According to a CBS poll, 48% of Americans says that the United States government should “release the entire family back to their home country together.” 11% of Americans believe that the parents should be arrested, but have their children kept with them in the same facility.

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/timothymeads/2018/06/24/untitled-n2493996

 

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3 hours ago, Scott Mayers said:

 The people who come here are simply the more better off ones who represent an even minor minority of those poor where they come from. The quantity of those coming here represent trivial quantities of the poor where they come from. All people everywhere are 'equal' in potential by the averages but only those who have the set of essentials provided by that "kit" even allows them to get past the initial doors needed to sustain worthwhile employment. You are spoiled as a 'conservative' for your own arrogance of not even willing to notice this.....understanding, given you ARE the 'spoiled' who are 'lazy thinkers'.

 I believe in equal opportunity not legislative equality or statistical equality or any entitlement mentality. Especially when it comes to immigration, illegal immigration is unfair to those who are willing to put up with the time, effort and large amount of money to go through our long vetting process. Immigration is not a right, it is a privilege and opportunity the host nation has graciously offer. How that host nation decides who gets in is up to the policy maker. But immigrants are in no position to "demand" anything. 

For the love of Vishnu could you not reply with an essay. Please just keep it concise and to the point, I don't see the need for long convoluted examples. No offense, just really difficult to read an essay on my mobile device while praising our dear leader Trump

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