The Great Immigration Debate

[paxamericana]

As you are all aware immigration is currently a hot subject and can be considered political poison for those in office.

This issue stems back many generations since immigrants first settled here from Europe and every where else since. 

Each wave of immigrants left a distinct mark on American society and way of life. Some for better some for worse, but mostly better. 

By in large, immigrants are just seeking a better opportunity, the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness. The American dream. This has been true for every wave of immigrants coming here. Unless of course you're a slave.

I would like to hear what are your thoughts on immigration, specifically, who, how and where.

 

 

 

[eyeball]

14 minutes ago, paxrom said:

I would like to hear what are your thoughts on immigration, specifically, who, how and where.

Anyone, anywhere and everywhere they want without limit, exactly like our money which seeks the very same thing, greener pastures.

I think a border-less world for money is unconscionable in the face of limits on the movement of people.

[paxamericana]

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

Anyone, anywhere and everywhere they want without limit, exactly like our money which seeks the very same thing, greener pastures.

I think a border-less world for money is unconscionable in the face of limits on the movement of people.

Oh? that's a radical idea, at least to most Americans. Because in effect what you're advocating for is anarchy if I'm not mistaken. The concept of nation state would no longer hold true. 

[eyeball]

5 minutes ago, paxrom said:

Oh? that's a radical idea, at least to most Americans. Because in effect what you're advocating for is anarchy if I'm not mistaken. The concept of nation state would no longer hold true. 

Anarchy seems less radical than the chaotic migration being caused by the unrestricted movement of money.  A one world economy seems ludicrous without a one world state to check and balance its excesses.   

[paxamericana]

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

Anarchy seems less radical than the chaotic migration being caused by the unrestricted movement of money.  A one world economy seems ludicrous without a one world state to check and balance its excesses.   

Ah I see, you're the united earth directorate. I hear rumors of you guys want to start world war 3, a war to end all wars. 

[Jimwd]

There is no doubt every nation has a right to secure borders. However America's  situation is in peril because of American greed. Undocumented workers live in America precisely because they can get jobs.

It's economics 101 ..supply and demand. If you give people jobs they will come. No jobs =no illegals.

Canada doesn't have the illegals problem because every time   they have to come to Canada they leave when they can't find work. No jobs= no illegals.

So Americans created  a problem and now have no idea how to fix the mess. I have the solution that accepts responsibility for your past mistakes and doesn't harm innocent people.

1. Any illegal in America today gets landed immigrant status and permission to stay.( unless criminal record)

2. Any American who hires an undocumented worker goes to prison for a minimum stay of 5 years. If its a corporation the CEO is jailed.

3/ Guarantee that wil stop all future illegals from coming since there would be no jobs for them.

That would be a humane solution that takes into account America's past greed and mistakes.

 

Edited June 28, 2018 by Jimwd

[paxamericana]

18 minutes ago, Jimwd said:

Any illegal in America today gets landed immigrant status and permission to stay.( unless criminal record)

2. Any American who hires an undocumented worker goes to prison for a minimum stay of 5 years. If its a corporation the CEO is jailed.

1) Assuming you aren't advocating for a pourus border. Would that not encourage more immigration in the short term? Exacerbating the issue we currently see at the border. Would that also lower the labour market for wages as there is an increased supply of labour.

 

2) already have laws against hiring undocumented, may need more enforcement. 

[Argus]

1 hour ago, Jimwd said:

Canada doesn't have the illegals problem because every time   they have to come to Canada they leave when they can't find work. No jobs= no illegals.

Canada has no idea how many illegals it even has. And like in the US the liberals in our largest cities have declared them 'sanctuary cities' for illegals and don't report them.

 

[Argus]

Given the amount of services government supplies to people, and the nature of a progressive taxation system, the more poor people you take in, the poorer your country becomes. That's something most people seem to ignore.

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, paxrom said:

Ah I see, you're the united earth directorate. I hear rumors of you guys want to start world war 3, a war to end all wars. 

You see, there you go again. Next you'll be peppering your comments with references to Pol Pot and eco-terrorists.

Where's my shovel? 

[eyeball]

40 minutes ago, Argus said:

Given the amount of services government supplies to people, and the nature of a progressive taxation system, the more poor people you take in, the poorer your country becomes. That's something most people seem to ignore.

Yes, you were warned about this decades ago but, but, but, Castro and feminists... 

[Jimwd]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

Canada has no idea how many illegals it even has. And like in the US the liberals in our largest cities have declared them 'sanctuary cities' for illegals and don't report them.

 

Yea we do because Canadian businesses that hire illegals pay severe penalties. Just because you don't know you can't just make it up as you go.

[Jimwd]

1 hour ago, paxrom said:

1) Assuming you aren't advocating for a pourus border. Would that not encourage more immigration in the short term? Exacerbating the issue we currently see at the border. Would that also lower the labour market for wages as there is an increased supply of labour.

 

2) already have laws against hiring undocumented, may need more enforcement. 

No.... the date is effective today. Tomorrows arrivals don't get in.

[Bonam]

Seems to me like America clearly needs low skilled immigrant labor for a variety of jobs, but has no viable legal mechanism for said immigrants to enter. Existing employer-sponsored methods of immigrating to America for work take up to years of processing and tens of thousands of dollars in application and legal fees and is only suitable for highly skilled professionals sponsored by major corporations. 

A fast-track system for low skilled labor should be implemented so people can apply and be approved within < 1 month at a cost of no more than a few hundred dollars total. This should not require employer sponsorship but should come with the requirement that the person finds employment and housing within 1 month of entering the country, and is required to leave otherwise. Temporary workers should have to get their stay extended every 2-3 years. After 5 years of continuous work in the US, they should be allowed to apply for a green card. The number of entry visas allowed under this scheme should be carefully controlled to match the demand for low skilled workers but not to flood the market and depress wages. During times of recession, the allowed number would likely fall to zero, while during times of prosperity it may be up to a few hundred thousand per year. 

For those already in America illegally, they should simply have to follow the same system as above, and they should be assessed a significant but not crushing one time monetary penalty in exchange for forgiveness of their prior illegal entry. 

At the same time as the above changes, significantly increase the enforcement against any future illegal immigration (since people will now be able to legally immigrate for legitimate purposes). Companies hiring illegal workers must be penalized very harshly so as to destroy the job market and thus the incentive for illegal immigration. 

Edited June 28, 2018 by Bonam

[Argus]

2 hours ago, Bonam said:

Seems to me like America clearly needs low skilled immigrant labor for a variety of jobs, but has no viable legal mechanism for said immigrants to enter. 

If American was finding low-skilled labor in short supply it would increase the wages for low-skilled labor. Since it has not significantly done so, there is no shortage.

[bush_cheney2004]

Illegals depress American labour wages.   Capitulating to 12 million illegals with a "path to citizenship" or legal residency undermines legal immigration and those who followed the rules.   Illegals put more burden on social programs and education costs.   

Detain and deport all illegals...no exceptions.     And yes, that includes the 100,000+ Canadian illegal overstays who won't go home !

(Canada is going to start recording all departures from its borders...sharing data with the USA.)

[Bonam]

2 minutes ago, Argus said:

If American was finding low-skilled labor in short supply it would increase the wages for low-skilled labor. Since it has not significantly done so, there is no shortage.

Well, there's no shortage, since a lot of those positions are filled with illegal/undocumented (depending on your preferred terminology) immigrants. By converting this unofficial sector of the economy to a legitimate one, it could be better measured and the number of people being let in could be modulated to allow for gradual wage growth without the shocks that would be caused by a harsh enforcement regime without simultaneously creating a legitimate pathway. 

[Argus]

9 minutes ago, Bonam said:

Well, there's no shortage, since a lot of those positions are filled with illegal/undocumented (depending on your preferred terminology) immigrants. By converting this unofficial sector of the economy to a legitimate one, it could be better measured and the number of people being let in could be modulated to allow for gradual wage growth without the shocks that would be caused by a harsh enforcement regime without simultaneously creating a legitimate pathway. 

But to do that you have to give citizenship to millions of people who cheated in crossing the border and who otherwise have no right to be there. That also then makes them eligible for all government services. Since most of these people are poor, that would be a pretty high cost to government since government pays a lot more in services to poor people than it ever gets back in taxes. Plus this would encourage others to stream across the border in hopes of a similar amnesty. In addition, many of them would abandon the jobs they're doing now, as in the farm sector, where they're needed, and head to the cities in hopes of something better. That would further depress low income wages in urban areas and make it harder for farmers to get their crops in.

 

[H10]

17 hours ago, paxrom said:

As you are all aware immigration is currently a hot subject and can be considered political poison for those in office.

This issue stems back many generations since immigrants first settled here from Europe and every where else since. 

Each wave of immigrants left a distinct mark on American society and way of life. Some for better some for worse, but mostly better. 

By in large, immigrants are just seeking a better opportunity, the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness. The American dream. This has been true for every wave of immigrants coming here. Unless of course you're a slave.

I would like to hear what are your thoughts on immigration, specifically, who, how and where.

Trump is right on immigration, seal up the border and just say sorry, you cannot come here, you may apply for asylum in Mexico or some other nation.  These are mostly economic migrants or not legitimate refugees and asylum seekers.  I saw a news story where a woman said she just wanted a good education for her son.  Her Daca son graduated university, but she didn't leave the country after they got the education.  So they just want money.  And America cannot absorb all of latin America who wants to move into USA.

 

Sadly, there is an unholy alliance between the center left and center right.  The center left views the central americans as future voters.  The center right and far right view them as cheap labor without rights.  Sadly, neither sad actually cares about these people, because if they did they'd stop them from immigrating and stabilize their home nations rather than just letting them all run here.

There is not one good argument in favor of illegal immigration.  They claim they are fleeing MS13, but MS13 started in America!  Further MS13 is killing many latin Americans here in America.

 

They claim they are legitimately persecuted in their homeland, but if they are, why didn't they go to costa rica or panama or Argentina or brazil or Mexico for asylum?  See they just want to get into an country where the pay is higher!  Further if the gangs are targeting everyone, that doesn't make everyone a refugee, unless it is on a prohibited ground (Race, gender, culture,etc).

 

My only complaint was Trump backed down on separating children, he should have double downed and not backed down.

[paxamericana]

3 minutes ago, H10 said:

 

Sadly, there is an unholy alliance between the center left and center right.  The center left views the central americans as future voters.  The center right and far right view them as cheap labor without rights.  Sadly, neither sad actually cares about these people, because if they did they'd stop them from immigrating and stabilize their home nations rather than just letting them all run here.

 

Interesting perspective. I will say that most Americans want to have a secured border. Where they divide is what to do with the ones already here. Trump is deporting those with criminal background (minor drug offenses too).

[H10]

3 minutes ago, paxrom said:

Interesting perspective. I will say that most Americans want to have a secured border. Where they divide is what to do with the ones already here. Trump is deporting those with criminal background (minor drug offenses too).

Its not about most Americans, it is determined by most donors.  And most donors either want cheap immigrant desperate labor who can be exploited and won't sue or whine about their rights or don't even know them to destroy American labor or they are liberal and just want more left wing inclined voters coming from left wing socialist latin american nations.  None of that goes with a secured border.  Do you understand that most of the farms in the southwest from Calfornia to Texas plus Florida cannot run without illegal labor or raising wages to $20-25 an hour? Hence despite hating brown people, they want them in the country to work for $7 an hour.  When you add on the fact that most illegals bring their 5 kids to help pick fruit, the average illegal does the work of at least 3 hard working americans for a fraction of the price.

 

Also what does it take to secure the border? 1. Border wall from sea to sea.  2. Secure the homelands where the illegals are coming from. 3. Stopping foreign intervention which destabilizes the home nations.  The reality is that Americans have conflicting priorities.  You don't get a border crisis without Iran-contra.  You don't get a border crisis, without American government destabilizing latin America.  However, most Americans favor the foreign interventionist wars and cia missions to harm governments they don't like.  You cannot destabilize Haiti, Cuba, and Mexican government, then "secure the border".  Securing the border starts there.  

 

There really is no divide. The American far left has conceded the point on illegals as the leadership is from California and has forced them too, it wasn't always that way though.  Right now, it is just the far right trying to stop the illegals.  The center right cannot legalize them, because if the become legal they walk off the farms and compete with regular Americans for better paying jobs and they demand $20 an hour.  The left would love to legalize them but probably know they cannot win on that platform.  Almost all illegals have criminal backgrounds as crossing the border outside a port of entry is illegal and overstaying your visa is illegal and lying about your purpose to the border FEDERAL AGENTS is a SERIOUS crime (most illegals actually claim to  be visiting a family member or cross border shopping then don't go back).  Not to mention that once they are here, the illegals then typically use a fake id to get a job, a fake or stole ssn, a fake or stole drivers license and drive without insurance.  Illegals basically commit a series of ongoing crimes just to be present in the nation.

[turningrite]

I think immigration mainly works well for the U.S., primarily because immigrants have to work and contribute to the economy in order to survive. Unlike Canada, where generous social programs, including publicly funded health care, are available almost immediately to immigrants, this is not the case south of the border. I recently read an article estimating net tax proceeds paid by recent immigrants into tax coffers in the U.S. exceed $60 billion (U.S.) annually. In Canada, on the other hand, it's estimated that recent immigrants constitute a net drain tax drain exceeding $30 billion (CDN) annually. That being said, I think all countries must have secure borders. It's a primary hallmark of effective sovereignty. In the U.S. I think a bigger issue than in Canada (although we're getting there) is the problem of uncontrolled migration and I believe concern about this problem is valid.

[Argus]

2 hours ago, turningrite said:

I think immigration mainly works well for the U.S., primarily because immigrants have to work and contribute to the economy in order to survive.

There is that. But it's also true that most immigrants need to have a firm job offer for a decent job before they can go to the US. That's not the case in Canada. 

[Hal 9000]

I don't mind bringing in immigrants so much, it's the paying for them that I have issue with.  It's bad enough paying for career students and welfare cases, now we have to pay for a family of 7-12 children to live for free...because "that's who we are".

[paxamericana]

7 hours ago, Hal 9000 said:

I don't mind bringing in immigrants so much, it's the paying for them that I have issue with.  It's bad enough paying for career students and welfare cases, now we have to pay for a family of 7-12 children to live for free...because "that's who we are".

If you take in unskilled immigrants ie the illegals or refugees, that's what going to happen. I'm not saying that this is morally right but again, America has no obligation to do the impossible, we do our best. And the best is to make sure you limit or control the number of refugee/asylum seeker/ unskilled labor you allow into the country at any given point in time. The only way to do that is to secure the border. 

Because when you allow refugee in you have to make sure they're able to take care of themselves and contribute to society, obviously this isn't realistic in the short term because they'll often have no skill, language barrier and no financial capital. So the country can only handle/absorb so many of these "charity" cases per year.