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45 minutes ago, cannuck said:

Right.   Making the existing University of Crime into a five star resort is going to be a hell of a deterrent.

You seem to forget that Norway is a different country in so many ways.  You are cherry picking statistics to prove a supposition that suits your ideology.  Go spend some time with violent criminals and tell me you still think the same way. 

 

At least I did some research.  Feel free to find research that demonstrates how much better the "punishment" model preferred by the US, Canada and the UK work.

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Economically preventing crime in the first place is a hell of a lot more cost effective than cheaper incarceration costs. 

 Agree.  And look what happens if there is any suggestion that we, as taxpayers, contribute to the economic well-being of the poorest among us.  Conservatives especially tend to scream bloody murder if they think their tax dollar might be used to better society through helping individuals.  They're much happier spending more tax dollars keeping people poor, locked up and incapable of getting a job.

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BTW: we already have a precedent for the mollycoddling model - healing lodges.   Seems the miracle of Norse gaols does not transfer well to that part of Canada.

Part of that is the lack of judgement of and more acceptance for ex-cons among Norwegians, exactly the opposite of what you demonstrate here.  

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22 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

So if anyone killed Brevik, there need not even be a trial.  Rehabilitation wouldn't be required.  It's not like they're going to kill anyone else.

To me, rehabilitation comes after public safety and victim satisfaction.  That said, if the Norwegians think 21 years in a resort is enough, I suppose that's up to them.  I wouldn't if it was my kid.

Reabilation increases public safety.  "Victim satisfaction" is pretty subjective; some people forgive even the most horrific crimes against themselves or loved ones, other people never do, regardless of the severity of the punishment.   I do not agree that state-imposed revenge on behalf of victims is worth more crime, more victims, more misery.

 

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11 minutes ago, dialamah said:

At least I did some research.  Feel free to find research that demonstrates how much better the "punishment" model preferred by the US, Canada and the UK work.

 Agree.  And look what happens if there is any suggestion that we, as taxpayers, contribute to the economic well-being of the poorest among us.  Conservatives scream bloody murder if they think their tax dollar might be used to better society through helping individuals.  They're much happier spending more tax dollars keeping people poor, locked up and incapable of getting a job.

Part of that is the lack of judgement and more acceptance for ex-cons among Norwegians, exactly the opposite of what you demonstrate here.  That makes you part of the problem.

First of all, we don't punish them, we put them up in comfortable surroundings, feed them three squares a day, watch colour TV, allow conjugal visits, they can buy all of the drugs and make all of the booze they want (the resourceful ones) and spend their days learning how to exploit the fruits of everyone else's labour inside and outside of jail.

Real conservatives object to government agencies taking far more money out to their unionized members to go through the appearances of "giving" someone else's money out for just about any reason.  Take a trip down to RUH (and so many other places in Saskatoon) and note how many of those genuinely conservative people gladly open up their wallet and give MILLIONS to all kinds of causes that have no possibility of ever benefiting them directly.  You are just spouting the party line of divisive politics upon which the NDP was founded.
 

I have hired ex cons and welcomed them into my home.   Have you?

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56 minutes ago, cannuck said:

I have hired ex cons and welcomed them into my home.   Have you?

Yes.  I have heard and seen the effects of their PTSD, the nightmares, the inability to make a decision on some simple choice taken-for-granted by the rest of us, the endless search for a job nobody will give them because of their record, the assumptions made about them, in and out of their hearing.  I've heard the stories of the brutality by the guards, the fear of violence from other inmates, the constant wariness, the mind-destroying weeks and months in solitary, the lack of freedom to decide anything - when to eat, what to eat, when to sleep, when to get up, where to go,  the constant fear and despair of prison life.   I have seen how the ingrained lack of trust in others and in the system, the internalized belief of their own worthlessness, learned and reinforced in prison and then by a society that rejects them, makes jobs and relationships much more difficult for them to establish and maintain.  A color tv, conjugal visits and three squares a day does not make up for any of that, by any stretch of the imagination; most people would rather live on the street than spend time in prison.  That so many do, somehow, overcome all of that to succeed is a testament to the resiliency of human beings, not to the effectiveness of a system that seeks to break them.

Thank you for giving some of them a job.  Wouldn't it be better if many more of them could get a job, if many more were capable of keeping that job, of succeeding outside jail in greater numbers and sooner.  That is the value of true rehabilitation vs. revenge and punishment.

 

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20 hours ago, YMS_1975 said:

And "lifers" should be rapists & murderers; of course they'd have to narrow that down to much more greater detail though.

Was it premeditated, self defense, etc. We can do it, but our government is too soft on crimes.

We do, however, need to apply some degree of scientific logic. It's been determined in the U.S., which incarcerates a much larger percentage of its population than does any other Western country, that long sentences for repeat/habitual offenders do in fact help to reduce crime rates. In this country, a significant percentage of habitual offenders seem to begin their "careers" at quite early ages and the youth offender system is seen by many as merely as slap-on-the-wrist resolving door program that does little good. I agree with those who say that serious crimes, and particularly gun-involved crimes, committed by offenders over the age of, say, 15 should be addressed in the regular court system with the attendant penalties. And habitual criminals should be treated differently than are first-time criminals. Try rehabilitation early on. If it doesn't work, it's not likely to.

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19 hours ago, dialamah said:

On crimes or criminals?

Do you have a recommendation for a criminal justice system that Canada should emulate to reduce crime here?

Here's a list of countries by "Intentional Homicide" per 100,000 people.

Here's a list of countries by 'rape' per 1,000,000 people.

A few countries score better than Canada, so maybe there is some takeaway for our politicians to consider.  What do you think?

 

Well, I'd look to the country which has the lowest crime rates. I'd study what they're doing. I mean they must be doing something right, so why reinvent the wheel? Emulate their successful model.

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17 minutes ago, YMS_1975 said:

Well, I'd look to the country which has the lowest crime rates. I'd study what they're doing. I mean they must be doing something right, so why reinvent the wheel? Emulate their successful model.

Saudi Arabia, Japan and Norway all report low crime rates.  Which country should we emulate?

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On 6/23/2018 at 7:10 AM, Centerpiece said:

I don't think it takes any imagination to determine the colour of most, if not all of these gang-bangers. This would be a perfect opportunity for a sociologist to profile each and every one of them - family make-up, education, countries of origin, etc. Most people - obviously including me - have pre-conceived notions that most gun crime in the GTA is black-on-black with root causes in the Baby-Mom culture and absentee fathers - mostly stemming from crime-ridden Caribbean countries with a systemic single-parent cultural bias. Call out the hand-wringers who whine about blacks being over-represented in the justice system. Get the facts - do the work - tell the truth - and work to stop the violence.....for the sake of the overwhelming, vast majority of the Black community that just wants to get on with their lives.

I know that it is politically incorrect to mention names but would you be referring to Jamaican drug gangs by chance? We know that if it were some Hells Angels doing drive by/mall shootings it would be front page news on the CBC. The police know. The politicians know. The Canadian media knows. Many other people know. I guess that color has something to do with it. No doubt about that. 

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On 6/23/2018 at 8:24 AM, Michael Hardner said:

1) Would you therefore trust a professional sociologist to do that ?  What comes out of the discussion once root cause is determined ?  A systemic approach, or a blame/excuse approach ?

2) Since you are willing to give the problem over to professionals for information gathering, will you abide by what they find whether you agree with the politics or not ? 

 

If not, then we are talking about the heart of the 'epistemic crisis' we are living in today, the disagreement over facts and knowledge.  Objective arts and sciences are a good way to establish common ground, as you seem to be willing to investigate but to my mind the end result can't be blame/excuse as it takes a process back into the realm of the amateur/generalist.  And although I'm obviously a fan of the academic/specialist approach I also recognize that without trust and buy-in it's a non-starter.

It's Jamaican drug gangs. :D

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3 hours ago, YMS_1975 said:

Well, I'd look to the country which has the lowest crime rates. I'd study what they're doing. I mean they must be doing something right, so why reinvent the wheel? Emulate their successful model.

That would be Switzerland and Japan. Both have largely homogeneous populations, though. In Switzerland, half the crime is committed by foreigners.

There tends to be less crime, particularly violent crime, in homogeneous communities where people feel some sense of kinship with each other.

Edited by Argus
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19 minutes ago, Argus said:

In Switzerland, half the crime is committed by foreigners.

Interesting; I did not see that when I was looking stuff up this morning.  Do you have a cite?

There tends to be less crime, particularly violent crime, in homogeneous communities where people feel some sense of kinship with each other.

Sounds like opinion; do you have anything to back that up?   El Slavador is extremely violent, yet has a homogenous population.  

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4 hours ago, dialamah said:

   El Slavador is extremely violent, yet has a homogenous population.  

Hey, I read one!  Well part of one, anyway.

Do you think the Norwegian system will help in El Salvador?

Violent crime including armed robbery, banditry, assault, kidnapping, sexual assault, and carjacking is common, including in the capital, San Salvador. Downtown San Salvador is dangerous, particularly at night. Public safety is no laughing matter, San Salvador hosts one of the most notorious unified crime family transnational gangs that spread across the Central American heart region, like the Mara Salvatrucha and the 18th Street gang that arrived during and since the Salvadoran Civil War.

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5 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Hey, I read one!  Well part of one, anyway.

Do you think the Norwegian system will help in El Salvador?

Violent crime including armed robbery, banditry, assault, kidnapping, sexual assault, and carjacking is common, including in the capital, San Salvador. Downtown San Salvador is dangerous, particularly at night. Public safety is no laughing matter, San Salvador hosts one of the most notorious unified crime family transnational gangs that spread across the Central American heart region, like the Mara Salvatrucha and the 18th Street gang that arrived during and since the Salvadoran Civil War.

 

The irony of MS-13 was that it was formed in LA (along with 18th) and then deported back to El Salvador only to morph into an even bigger monster.

Edited by DogOnPorch
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  • 1 month later...
On 11/18/2018 at 5:32 PM, dialamah said:

So you have no ideas or opinion on what a better system looks like and just think bitching makes you look.smart.  Figures.  

BTW, Norway has the lowest crime rate of all countries, the fewest of its citizens in prison and the lowest recidivism rate.  They impose short sentences in comfortable surroundings and focus on rehabilitation rather than punishment.  Seems to work; unfortunately, we in Canada are still barbaric enough to think thay treating people like animals and imposing harsh punishments will somehow inspire them to behave better.

The reason is that Norway is full of Norwegians.   Take a look at Canada's most wanted lists and you will notice that they are almost all immigrants or clearly from easily distinguished minorities - not of traditional Canadian ethnicities.   Let me refresh your memory:  http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/wanted

Oh, I should add:  Norway RESTRICTS immigration to a large extent:  https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/11/norway-is-hard-on-migrants-but-tough-love-works/

Edited by cannuck
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Rehabilitation is a word that suggests you can get someone to stop engaging in crimes when used in reference to how we should manage criminals. While It does have some application to first time criminals, some drug and alcohol addicts and in aboriginal healing circles with some natives, the reality is it has little impact on reducing crime.

I think if you can get to some kids it can work, likewise with some addicts, but anyone who thinks it will work with terrorists, violent offenders, needs to come inside a prison, sit in a support group, or clean up after a terrorist attack and get a reality check.

Street gangs are just pack behaviour... a behaviour seen in all primates. It's a part of the life cycle of simeons. As immature males age their dependency on the pack will change as the need to break away from the alpha male and find a mate and reproduce and form a new pack becomes the imperative.

Street gangs, boy scouts, sports teams, combat units, church groups, political parties, musical bands, are all variations of the pack. 

You are never going to get rid of pack behaviour. The best you can do is redirect the attention of a pack to something benevolent to as opposed to detrimental to the prevailing social norms.

One option is to appeal to a pack's sexual and material desires. We pay certain gangs huge salaries, surround them with material excesses and concubines. We call such pack members athletes or rappers. They used to be called gladiators.  Rehabilitation? Try signing them to a rap label. 

Regards,

Frank, Dino, Sammy, Joey, Peter, Spanky, Green Bay

 

 

 

Edited by Rue
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  • 2 months later...
On 11/16/2018 at 7:54 PM, YMS_1975 said:

If chopping off hands & the death penalty is your idea of justice, I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you're a Conservative, white male.

I vote none of the above. politicians of any stripe are filthy slimy vermin who only baglick and suck their leaders schlong. I would vote or an independant only

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On 11/16/2018 at 8:06 PM, YMS_1975 said:

Violence will not solve anything. You can either accept that, or you can let your delusions take control over you. Free will gives you the power to make that decision. What will deter crimes however, are very strict policies. Our laws are quite lax. If you want to solve this problem, start with pressuring lawmakers to fix their policies.

 

Sentences handed out for those guilty are a joke at best. But for some reason, I'm finding that certain people think capital punishment will somehow fix this problem. It most certainly will not. When a serious crime is committed and the perpetrator is killed as part of his sentence, the only ones who remember the crime are the perpetrators family, the victim & their family. Society quickly forgets and moves on to the next cause of the month.

But people who are thrown in prison and kept in prison (yes, at the tax dollars expense) are a constant reminder to those of us on the other side of those gates. Look at Paul Bernardo. We're still reading about him. People still talk about him. And when we remember those criminals & see that they're still doing time, it forces would-be criminals to think twice. Death is an easy out. Those who commit crimes don't really fear death. They live a fast life with little to no regard for consequence.

Lock them up & throw away the key, and then suddenly their peer group takes notice. But sensible policy will always lose to mob mentality. I guess that's just the way it is.

Ya their peer group says hey tyrone or whatever injun name they have. Hes doing time that leaves more money for me. Bottom line no hands you can't pick up a gun. Buried you never commit another crime

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On 11/16/2018 at 8:23 PM, YMS_1975 said:

I agree that many criminals do hone their skills while in the bin & that it's a "badge of honour". That much we can agree on. But I could never agree to ending a life; even that of the harshest criminal. I'm afraid we'll simply have to agree to disagree.

So we'll mark you down as a do gooder. 

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