BubberMiley Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 "Populist" and "Russian mob money-laundering operation" are not synonyms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 2 hours ago, betsy said: Like, do you think Italy would be so stubborn to refuse refugees if they don't have this new populist government? Where do you think the inspiration came from? You must be very proud of Canada's history of refusing Jewish refugees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 46 minutes ago, dialamah said: You must be very proud of Canada's history of refusing Jewish refugees. Those Jews (I will guess you are talking about the boat back int he 40s? that were turned away from Canada were also turned away by a few other nations. But sure Canada has big shoulders, we can take the blame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OftenWrong Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 11 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said: I don't think you understand....nothing Trump has done prevents or precludes Trump from attacking the DPRK in response to an existential threat. Kim does not control the ultimate outcome of such a conflagration...Trump does. Judging by the comments of forum members here, it seems most do not understand this. Trump has "given" nothing either, or whatever he did agree to can just as easily be taken away. Trump seems to have extended an "olive branch" to NK. That does not mean much, or it could mean everything for Kim Jong Un. It certainly is a safer, more sane approach to negotiations than open hostility, making threats and launching test missiles... that is, if it works. Given the track record with NK, this is a gamble but for now the raving madman KJU seems to have stopped his rocket and nuclear tests. The next logical step would be some kind of legal treaty. None of this implies that the US/Trump cannot reverse his position at any time. Military presence is the backbone for these negotiations and it would be irrational to stand down now, or reduce US military capability in the region. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 (edited) Even those who are Trump friendly are dismissing this as a big nothingburger. In fact, it may simply be a tacit acknowledgement by the United States that they are impotent and can't do anything about North Korea's nukes. Despite tough U.S. talk before the summit about “complete” and “verifiable” denuclearization, the vaguely worded 1 1/2-page document Trump and Kim signed doesn’t include that language and essentially represents “tacit approval” of North Korea’s nuclear program, said Jeffery Lewis, director of the East Asia Non-Proliferation Program at the Middlebury Institute for International Studies in Monterey, California. Even the Foundation for Defense of Democracies, a Washington-based policy research group normally supportive of Trump’s foreign policy, signaled its reservations. “It is difficult to evaluate whether Trump and Kim’s joint statement is a small step toward” verifiable denuclearization or is, instead, “a sign that the Trump administration will accept other outcomes.” http://ottawacitizen.com/news/world/will-north-korea-ever-give-up-its-nukes-trump-kim-deal-suggests-its-unlikely/wcm/16767b84-9b48-4787-9e91-f33f42b05bea Edited June 14, 2018 by Argus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 3 minutes ago, OftenWrong said: None of this implies that the US/Trump cannot reverse his position at any time. Military presence is the backbone for these negotiations and it would be irrational to stand down now, or reduce US military capability in the region. And the demented Donald Trump would never do anything irrational. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 27 minutes ago, GostHacked said: Those Jews (I will guess you are talking about the boat back int he 40s? that were turned away from Canada were also turned away by a few other nations. But sure Canada has big shoulders, we can take the blame. Did I say or even imply Canada was the only nation? And why does that matter? The plaint "But Ma, everyone else does it!" didn't work when my kids were 10 and it doesn't work any better now from you. Damn right Canada should take responsibility for their past actions, good and bad, though I understand taling responsibility for the "bad" is not part of Conservative ideology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 11 minutes ago, dialamah said: Did I say or even imply Canada was the only nation? And why does that matter? The plaint "But Ma, everyone else does it!" didn't work when my kids were 10 and it doesn't work any better now from you. Damn right Canada should take responsibility for their past actions, good and bad, though I understand taling responsibility for the "bad" is not part of Conservative ideology. You singled out Canada in that post. So I took it to task. Canada will take responsibility when other nations like the USA decide to step up to the plate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 1 minute ago, GostHacked said: You singled out Canada in that post. So I took it to task. Canada will take responsibility when other nations like the USA decide to step up to the plate. Seriously? Is that how you operate your life? Do you slack at work because other people do and you won't quit till they do? Do you lie, steal, cheat and are only willing to quit when other people do? Can't you stand on your own two feet and take responsibility for your own behavior? And if you do, do you really think countries should do any less? This kind of BS is why the claim that Conservatives believe in "Personal Responsibility" is so laughable. They only believe in personal responsibility when it comes to the other guy, not themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 17 minutes ago, dialamah said: Seriously? Is that how you operate your life? Do you slack at work because other people do and you won't quit till they do? Do you lie, steal, cheat and are only willing to quit when other people do? Can't you stand on your own two feet and take responsibility for your own behavior? And if you do, do you really think countries should do any less? This kind of BS is why the claim that Conservatives believe in "Personal Responsibility" is so laughable. They only believe in personal responsibility when it comes to the other guy, not themselves. It's not how I operate, but seems like this is just how things are these days. And that is how Trump got into power because people are not paying attention to what is really going on. If you want to talk about responsibility. But my personal life and how I go about it is irrelevant to world leaders fucking things AND us over. Thing is I consider myself a political atheist, and if anyone spends any time here reading my posts they will know I am not partisan. I think they are all assholes fucking us over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimwd Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 5 hours ago, betsy said: How can there be a replacement.....if Iran doesn't want a replacement? Iran is fighting it. And why would Iran want a replacement..........if Iran had such a win-win deal with Obama? If I'm Iran, I won't want any changes too. What is Iran fighting ? what was presented to them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimwd Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 5 hours ago, betsy said: Because it's true. And the world cares. Even our media! Since Trump came into office......he overshadowed news about Trudeau! He's more covered by our news channel than our own PM! Heck, the White House daily briefing suddenly is so important! I've never seen the WH daily briefing covered as such at any time. People - and other leaders - may not want to acknowledge it, but Trump is re-shaping the world. Look at the Korean peninsula. The Mid-east! Israel! NAFTA! Given time, he'll have a hand in re-shaping even our own system - like, the supply management! Like, do you think Italy would be so stubborn to refuse refugees if they don't have this new populist government? Where do you think the inspiration came from? I know all about refugees. America tuned away boat loads of jews during ww2 sending them back to hitlers death camps. Trump isn't the first fascist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimwd Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 11 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said: That's why I keep repeating it...thank you for agreeing with me. Trump matters more than Trudeau...and Macron...and Merkel...and Abe....and.....you get the idea. Canada is a NATO/NORAD deadbeat...doesn't get to eat at the adults table when it comes to North Korea. You have only reinforced my point...because whatever deals your PMs have made with murderous dictators, they are trivial compared to the responsibility Trump has as U.S. president. American presidents make deals all the time....Canada gets to watch on TV. We watched as bone spurs attacked pows and gold star familiies. we know what he is..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimwd Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 2 hours ago, dialamah said: You must be very proud of Canada's history of refusing Jewish refugees. The Jewish refugees the US turned away In May 1939 more than 900 Jews fled Hitler's Germany on a luxury liner, the SS St Louis; they hoped to reach Cuba then travel to the US, but were turned away from both. The increasingly desperate passengers were forced to sail back to Europe, where more than 250 of them were later killed by the Nazis. Gerald Granston, who was six years old when he and his father travelled on the SS St Louis, recalls that frantic search for sanctuary across the Atlantic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OftenWrong Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 2 hours ago, Argus said: And the demented Donald Trump would never do anything irrational. There may be economic reasons for wanting to withdraw, which necessitates a resolution to this decades old problem. A good sign would be if the war is officially declared over. For now, what we saw in Singapore was (at best) symbolic. It is however, at least the right kind of symbolism. I'm with Trump if he applies pressure on all fronts, including options for NK that give them positive outcomes... a place for them to escape, without annihilation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Greene Posted June 14, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 2 minutes ago, OftenWrong said: There may be economic reasons for wanting to withdraw, which necessitates a resolution to this decades old problem. A good sign would be if the war is officially declared over. For now, what we saw in Singapore was (at best) symbolic. It is however, at least the right kind of symbolism. I'm with Trump if he applies pressure on all fronts, including options for NK that give them positive outcomes... a place for them to escape, without annihilation. Best way to solve the problem is through Capitalism. Get global investment into North Korea, and guarantee the dictators a luxurious lifestyle without the threat of invasion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paxamericana Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 18 minutes ago, Robert Greene said: Best way to solve the problem is through Capitalism. Get global investment into North Korea, and guarantee the dictators a luxurious lifestyle without the threat of invasion. Oh? how so? That's a radical thought. You mean like turn North Korea into South Korea? I think that was the plan all along by both sides. The only real opposition to this has been China and Russia. They do not want a western democracy on close to their borders. This has been the reason why North Korea has been allowed to exist. Without China's support hey would have bellied up long ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 2 hours ago, OftenWrong said: ....For now, what we saw in Singapore was (at best) symbolic. It is however, at least the right kind of symbolism. I'm with Trump if he applies pressure on all fronts, including options for NK that give them positive outcomes... a place for them to escape, without annihilation. Agreed....Trump inherited the failed outcomes of previous administration(s) policies for North Korea....nuclear weapons and long range ballistic missiles. Whether Trump will be more or less successful remains to be seen. What has Trudeau/Canada done to deal with the DPRK that is better / more effective ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Greene Posted June 14, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, paxrom said: Oh? how so? That's a radical thought. You mean like turn North Korea into South Korea? I think that was the plan all along by both sides. The only real opposition to this has been China and Russia. They do not want a western democracy on close to their borders. This has been the reason why North Korea has been allowed to exist. Without China's support hey would have bellied up long ago. Listen China. You cooperate or will hit you with a 35% levy on everything that comes into our country. If you want to see a financial crisis, the likes your country has never seen before, continue to snub us on North Korea. As far as Kim, just tell him and the generals we have thousands of Tomahawk Cruise missiles, sign the paper, or will assassinate you. Do you wanna die little Rocket Man? Or would you like to live out the rest of your life as a billionair? If war breaks out, it won't just be your soldiers that die little Rocket Man, it will be you. Edited June 14, 2018 by Robert Greene Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paxamericana Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 5 minutes ago, Robert Greene said: Listen China. You cooperate or will hit you with a 35% levy on everything that comes into our country. As far as Kim, just tell him and the generals we have thousands of Tomahawk Cruise missiles, sign the paper, or will assassinate you. Do you wanna die little Rocket Man? Or would you like to live out the rest of your life as a billionair? If war breaks out, it won't just be your soldiers that die little Rocket Man, it will be you. That would be ideal but currently I do not have enough data to fully support a regime change in North Korea. A power vacuum would be filled by either a new authoritarian regime or democratic one and could potentially lead to the second Korean war or world war 3. If any deals are to be had it will ultimately involve china and russia. It is not in their national interest to allow a Unified democratic Korea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Greene Posted June 14, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 29 minutes ago, paxrom said: That would be ideal but currently I do not have enough data to fully support a regime change in North Korea. A power vacuum would be filled by either a new authoritarian regime or democratic one and could potentially lead to the second Korean war or world war 3. If any deals are to be had it will ultimately involve china and russia. It is not in their national interest to allow a Unified democratic Korea. I'd love to just give North Korea to China. Here you keep the land. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paxamericana Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 2 hours ago, Robert Greene said: I'd love to just give North Korea to China. Here you keep the land. They also don't want because they need a buffer state. It's a traditional soviet policy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted June 15, 2018 Report Share Posted June 15, 2018 16 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Agreed....Trump inherited the failed outcomes of previous administration(s) policies for North Korea....nuclear weapons and long range ballistic missiles. Whether Trump will be more or less successful remains to be seen. What has Trudeau/Canada done to deal with the DPRK that is better / more effective ? Interesting that Fox news hated the idea of talking to North Korea when Obama wanted to give it a go, but no problems when Trump does it. Hypocrisy. That is how the USA operates. And now if you think Canada is a shitstick for putting tariffs on the US after Trump did it first. Now he wants to impose tariffs on China.. And if China retaliates, I think that will be a very large impact on the USA> http://money.cnn.com/2018/06/14/news/economy/trump-china-tariffs/index.html But Trump has been doing business with China as he needs to buy cheap stuff for his hotel guests. So this is going to affect his businesses bottom line as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paxamericana Posted June 22, 2018 Report Share Posted June 22, 2018 On 6/15/2018 at 7:31 AM, GostHacked said: Interesting that Fox news hated the idea of talking to North Korea when Obama wanted to give it a go, but no problems when Trump does it. Hypocrisy. That is how the USA operates. And now if you think Canada is a shitstick for putting tariffs on the US after Trump did it first. Now he wants to impose tariffs on China.. And if China retaliates, I think that will be a very large impact on the USA> http://money.cnn.com/2018/06/14/news/economy/trump-china-tariffs/index.html But Trump has been doing business with China as he needs to buy cheap stuff for his hotel guests. So this is going to affect his businesses bottom line as well. We are not an export dependent country. You will find how robust our economy is. Its the world's envy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 22, 2018 Report Share Posted June 22, 2018 14 minutes ago, paxrom said: We are not an export dependent country. You will find how robust our economy is. Its the world's envy. True...no other country in the world is so dependent on exports to a single nation as is Canada to the United States. Canada cannot win a trade war with America, but it would be fun to watch them try. They haven't even won "their" NHL Stanley Cup in 25 years ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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