California Judge Rules In Favor Of Christian

[betsy]

16 hours ago, Omni said:

OK. If YOU say so.

It's the fact for some of the cases!  Some gays have been long-time costumers of the baker.  One was even friendly with the gay couple.

[betsy]

16 hours ago, Omni said:

If I owned a bake shop I think I would bake a Muhammad cake and display it front and center in my shop window, and hope a gay Muslim would come in to buy it. 

Never mind hoping for some Muslims to buy it.  See if your shop is still open - or even existing -  a week later.  Maybe, you'll have a fatwa over your head and you'd be in hiding!  You'll be the bakery version of Salman Rushdie.

 

If you're in Canada....you'll be dinged for Islamophobia.  Trudeau himself, will slap you  with blasphemy!   Depicting an image of Mohammad is an offense to Muslims.

Why do you think the Muslims protested and rioted, and some even killed over those cartoons?

Edited March 4, 2018 by betsy

[betsy]

Here's the details about the Colorado case:

 

Quote

 

You may have heard of him. In 2012, when David Mullins and Charlie Craig tried to order a custom cake for their upcoming wedding from Phillips’ bakery, Masterpiece Cakeshop, he refused to take the order, stating that baking a custom cake for a same-sex wedding would go against his Christian beliefs. Phillips could make the betrothed something else — a birthday cake, a batch of cookies, a confection crudely moulded into the shape of an acoustic guitar (a specialty item I saw for sale on the Masterpiece Cakeshop website). But a custom cake for a same-sex wedding? Forget about it. Unfortunately for Phillips, Mullins and Craig didn’t. They took him to court instead.

Fast forward five years, and Phillip’s refusal to provide a service to gays that he regularly provided heterosexuals is the subject of a United States Supreme Court case being debated this week. So far media reports suggest that SCOTUS is divided on the case, a division that raises an important question

 

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2017/12/06/forget-about-the-neighbourly-approach-the-same-sex-wedding-cake-case-should-be-debated-in-supreme-court.html

A ruling is expected on June, 2018.

 

 

 

Edited March 4, 2018 by betsy

[bcsapper]

6 hours ago, betsy said:

Your life is not yours.  You can only imagine, or fool yourself into believing you have a say when it ends, and could even plan ahead for it (like giving don't resuscitate instructions, etc).   Some folks can't even get themselves dead by suicide!

That's the problem we would like to see solved.  That's why it is imperative that anyone who does not want to live be allowed a medical professional's help to ensure the job is done properly.

That way, there would be no supernatural involvement at all.

Edit>  Of course, if a country did decide to allow full assisted suicide to anyone who requested it, for any reason, and euthanasia at a loved one's request, that would be God's will for those who believe in such things, and therefore they would have no reason to protest, right?

Edited March 4, 2018 by bcsapper

[Hal 9000]

I think we can all agree that there are good cases and arguments for assisted suicide, degenerative diseases, terminal cancer, dementia, extreme old age, Omni etc.  But this is one of those situation where the "slippery slope" argument about "pain" really comes into play.  Other countries have let it get so bad that nurses are doing the procedure, Insurance companies are encouraging it to save money, people are doing it for depression, people are getting rid of their parents for the money etc etc.

[bcsapper]

9 minutes ago, Hal 9000 said:

I think we can all agree that there are good cases and arguments for assisted suicide, degenerative diseases, terminal cancer, dementia, extreme old age, Omni etc.  But this is one of those situation where the "slippery slope" argument about "pain" really comes into play.  Other countries have let it get so bad that nurses are doing the procedure, Insurance companies are encouraging it to save money, people are doing it for depression, people are getting rid of their parents for the money etc etc.

Those are all valid reasons, but in the end it comes down to choice, or more accurately, denial of choice.  I can see why you would be okay with me getting help to kill myself so the job is done properly if I was a terminally ill patient in extreme pain, but I cannot see why you would not be okay with me doing the same if I was just bored.  It's my life.  What does it have to do with you?

If people are offing their parents for the cash, deal with that, but let me go if I want to go.

Edited March 4, 2018 by bcsapper

[betsy]

17 hours ago, bcsapper said:

Edit>  Of course, if a country did decide to allow full assisted suicide to anyone who requested it, for any reason, and euthanasia at a loved one's request, that would be God's will for those who believe in such things,

That would depend on an individual's belief.  Some Christians would leave it in God's hands if there is no other way to save the life of a person. 

 

 

 

Quote

and therefore they would have no reason to protest, right?

There would be reason to protest - not necessarily for religious reason.  

Like everything else, euthanasia can be corrupted......and people could get away with actual murder (through euthanasia).  Giving power to anyone to be able to take away a life, is dangerous.   That's why there's protest from the disabled groups.

 

Quote

Not Dead Yet Disability Activists Oppose Assisted Suicide As A Deadly Form of Discrimination

http://notdeadyet.org/assisted-suicide-talking-points

 

 

Quote

Legalising assisted dying is dangerous for disabled people. Not compassionate

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/09/legalising-assisted-dying-dangerous-for-disabled-not-compassionate

 

 

Quote

We have cause to be concerned about perverse outcomes if euthanasia is adopted in Australia. In some countries where it has been introduced euthanasia has been offered to people with mental illness, people with dementia, twin brothers who were deaf, and even a woman with severe tinnitus.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/27/euthanasia-a-choice-for-people-with-disability-its-a-threat-to-our-lives

 

How do we know everyone who's euthanized had genuinely chosen to do so without any coerscion from anyone?  How do we know his state of mind at the time?   People can change their minds, too.

 

People love the IDEA of being able to chose how one would go, of being in control.......but the idea is far different from reality.

  You are not really in control when someone puts the idea of assisted-suicide as the only solution to EVERYONE'S problem (the disabled and the family who's providing the care). 

 

 

If assisted suicide legally exists......

.......and becomes an option - you are presented with that option, period. 

That in itself, can provide  psychological coerscion.

 

How does it feel to get a hint (whether imagined, or real):   "You are the problem.  You're draining our energy caring for you.  You're draining our financial resources.  You're going through what should be our inheritance, dad.  Only you can solve this.  Remove yourself."

 

You are not in control when you're made to feel and think that only you can end everyone's hardship by opting to commit suicide.  There is pressure.  We're talking psychological here.

People can get easily manipulated, psychologically.

Edited March 5, 2018 by betsy

[betsy]

Our society's mind frame too, .....is quite dangerous to have assisted suicide legalized.

 

This is the time of the "ME" generation!  Self-gratification - preferably instantly -  is the order of the day.

Edited March 5, 2018 by betsy

[betsy]

15 hours ago, bcsapper said:

Those are all valid reasons, but in the end it comes down to choice,

"IMAGINED" choice.   The IDEA of having control over one's life through "assisted-suicide," is being romanticized by the left. 

 

In oppressive societies (or SOCIALIST-leaning  societies who will no longer afford to give UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE in the near future for everyone) - it could become a way of culling the population.  Do we really want people who can no longer contribute to the system, to  live longer?

 

 

There's no real choice if one feels a psychological pressure, or is depressed enough.

 

It'll be relatives.....and doctors......and insurance companies.....and most likely the government .......who'll end up deciding what's the best "choice" for you.

 

Edited March 5, 2018 by betsy

[bcsapper]

2 hours ago, betsy said:

"IMAGINED" choice.   The IDEA of having control over one's life through "assisted-suicide," is being romanticized by the left.

 

It really doesn't matter who romanticizes it, or whether or not it is categorized by some as imagined.  All that matters is that the choice exists for all.

It doesn't now, but I sincerely hope it does in the future.

[bcsapper]

3 hours ago, betsy said:

That would depend on an individual's belief.  Some Christians would leave it in God's hands if there is no other way to save the life of a person. 

There would be reason to protest - not necessarily for religious reason.  

Like everything else, euthanasia can be corrupted......and people could get away with actual murder (through euthanasia).  Giving power to anyone to be able to take away a life, is dangerous.   That's why there's protest from the disabled groups.

 

 

Absolutely.  Any Christian would be allowed to stay alive until their God sent for them, if that's what they want.  The very best care they can afford should be given until that moment.  I'm not in favour of killing anyone who wants to hang on.

Lots of things we have can be corrupted, but we still have them, because it's worth it.  That's why there are laws.  For when they become corrupted.

[blackbird]

2 hours ago, bcsapper said:

It really doesn't matter who romanticizes it, or whether or not it is categorized by some as imagined.  All that matters is that the choice exists for all.

It doesn't now, but I sincerely hope it does in the future.

So you in fact would support anybody who wishes to end their life, even if it someone who wants to do it by jumping off a bridge?  I thought we discussed this and you denied it.

Now you're saying again that you support anyone having the choice to end their life.  

The reason the large American disabled rights advocacy association opposes doctor-assisted suicide is very simple.  They believe it would put disabled people at risk.  What you don't understand is there are many people who do not think clearly at certain times in their life and may be persuaded to end their life in a weaker moment.   Many young people would fall into this category.  People go through distressing times in their life, for a number of reasons.  Could be their girlfriend or boyfriend broke up with them.  Then they feel there is no point in living.  You would give these people the so-called freedom of choice to end their life.  Same with old people who have illness or dementia.  They may not be thinking straight.  Then there might be old people who feel they are a burden on their family.  Or disable people who feel they are a burden to society and want to not be a burden (as they see it).  This is one reason the disabled association in the U.S. opposes it.   Lots of reasons why someone might be persuaded at certain times to choose to end their life if given the opportunity, but at other times or in different or happier circumstances, may abhor the idea.in

Edited March 5, 2018 by blackbird

[dialamah]

43 minutes ago, blackbird said:

So you in fact would support anybody who wishes to end their life, even if it someone who wants to do it by jumping off a bridge?  I thought we discussed this and you denied it.

Now you're saying again that you support anyone having the choice to end their life.  

The reason the large American disabled rights advocacy association opposes doctor-assisted suicide is very simple.  They believe it would put disabled people at risk.  What you don't understand is there are many people who do not think clearly at certain times in their life and may be persuaded to end their life in a weaker moment.   Many young people would fall into this category.  People go through distressing times in their life, for a number of reasons.  Could be their girlfriend or boyfriend broke up with them.  Then they feel there is no point in living.  You would give these people the so-called freedom of choice to end their life.  Same with old people who have illness or dementia.  They may not be thinking straight.  Then there might be old people who feel they are a burden on their family.  Or disable people who feel they are a burden to society and want to not be a burden (as they see it).  This is one reason the disabled association in the U.S. opposes it.   Lots of reasons why someone might be persuaded at certain times to choose to end their life if given the opportunity, but at other times or in different or happier circumstances, may abhor the idea.in

People who are determined to end their life already do so, or they try over and over until they succeed or become to ill to keep trying.  Saying one supports doctor-assisted suicide doesn't mean throwing up one's hands in the face of someone expressing a wish to die.  I can support someone's right to make that choice, but still do all in my power to persuade them not to if the situation is likely to change for them, given time.

By the way, initiatives to support LGTBQ students in schools reduce youth suicide.    Parental rejection of an LGTBQ child means a higher risk that child will kill themselves.  Wider acceptance of LGTBQ in society reduces youth suicide and reduces attacks on and murders of gay people.  As a Christian who believes life is sacred, do you support or oppose wider acceptance of LGTBQ in schools and society, including gay marriage?

[?Impact]

7 hours ago, betsy said:

Some Christians would leave it in God's hands if there is no other way to save the life of a person.

There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. - 1 Corinthians 10:13

I guess you are saying that God didn't give us free will?

7 hours ago, betsy said:

People can get easily manipulated, psychologically.

Yes, they certainly can. Of course that implies they can be easily manipulated to your way of thinking as well.

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

The reason the large American disabled rights advocacy association opposes doctor-assisted suicide is very simple.  They believe it would put disabled people at risk.  What you don't understand is there are many people who do not think clearly at certain times in their life and may be persuaded to end their life in a weaker moment.   Many young people would fall into this category.  People go through distressing times in their life, for a number of reasons.  Could be their girlfriend or boyfriend broke up with them.  Then they feel there is no point in living.  You would give these people the so-called freedom of choice to end their life.  Same with old people who have illness or dementia.  They may not be thinking straight.  Then there might be old people who feel they are a burden on their family.  Or disable people who feel they are a burden to society and want to not be a burden (as they see it).  This is one reason the disabled association in the U.S. opposes it.   Lots of reasons why someone might be persuaded at certain times to choose to end their life if given the opportunity, but at other times or in different or happier circumstances, may abhor the idea.in

I see you are on besty's side, manipulating people to think your way. You want to force people to live a life of pain and suffering because it makes you feel better.

[betsy]

1 hour ago, ?Impact said:

There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. - 1 Corinthians 10:13

I guess you are saying that God didn't give us free will?

 

Of course there is free will.  But if God had something planned for you -  then His will, will be done. 

 

 

Edited March 5, 2018 by betsy

[dialamah]

45 minutes ago, betsy said:

Of course there is free will.  But if God had something planned for you -  then His will, will be done. 

 

 

Free will = God will do what he wants with you OR you will suffer eternal torture.

Got it.

 

[betsy]

16 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Free will = God will do what he wants with you OR you will suffer eternal torture.

Got it.

 

  Will you give yourself a head shake and check the option that you stated above.    

Can't see it? 

 

If God will do what He wants with you, why the "OR?"   

If you've got no choice -  if God will do whatever He wants with you   - what's the punishment for?

 

 

 

Yes, you got it.  Got it wrong. 

As usual.

 

I'm not even going to bother explaining things to you.  Waste of mah time. Believe what you want.

 

Edited March 5, 2018 by betsy

[dialamah]

If God will do what He wants with you, why the "OR?"    If you've got no choice -  if God directs everything - what's the punishment for?

1.  People who "choose" not to believe in God are punished, usually with the threat of eternal punishment.  That is not really "free will" anymore than it is when someone holds a gun to your head and says "Tell me what I want to hear or I will kill you."

2.  If God has a plan for you, then that is what will happen.  Calling that free will is like saying a puppet has free will.

Ergo: no free will.

Edited March 5, 2018 by dialamah
Typo

[blackbird]

3 hours ago, dialamah said:

 

People who are determined to end their life already do so, or they try over and over until they succeed or become to ill to keep trying.  Saying one supports doctor-assisted suicide doesn't mean throwing up one's hands in the face of someone expressing a wish to die.  I can support someone's right to make that choice, but still do all in my power to persuade them not to if the situation is likely to change for them, given time.

By the way, initiatives to support LGTBQ students in schools reduce youth suicide.    Parental rejection of an LGTBQ child means a higher risk that child will kill themselves.  Wider acceptance of LGTBQ in society reduces youth suicide and reduces attacks on and murders of gay people.  As a Christian who believes life is sacred, do you support or oppose wider acceptance of LGTBQ in schools and society, including gay marriage?

God has made it clear in the King James Bible that life is sacred and belong to him.  Nobody has the right to kill other people, with the exception of self defence as in the military, police or legal capital punishment for murder after due process.  

I never said an LGBTQ child should re "rejected" by parents.  You should understand there are many people who are not Christians who do things after the ways of society and the world and not along Christian principles.  There is much domestic abuse in homes and mis-treatment of children.  That is why many children are apprehended by social workers.  Children caught up in the LGBT thing should be treated with understanding, compassion, and love by their parents.  But we live in a corrupt world where people are often treated badly for all kinds of reasons.  That's one reason we have so many youth who run away from home or are placed in foster homes.   But there are also influences on youth and some rebel against parents and end up on their own because of a breakdown in the family structure. 

You should understand that people should and can be treated with respect without condoning or agreeing with the sin.  So youth in school and children should be treated with respect.  Christians cannot control what criminals who attack LGBTQ people do.  That's why we have laws and police to maintain order.  What you are talking about is a lawless society of thugs and criminals, which exist everywhere.  Some places more than others.  You can't blame Christians who do not agree with homosexuality for the evil things happening in the world.  Obviously the world is an evil place and many bad characters surround us.  

It has been reported there are a far higher incidence of suicide among transgender people than normal people and likely a higher percentage of suicide among all LGBTQ people than among heterosexual people.  That does not mean the solution is to approve of LGBTQ lifestyles or practices.  But again people should be treated with respect whoever they are.

It all comes down to accepting the King James Bible as the inspired word of God, which it is  or rejecting it in favour of humanism or the ways of the world.  A Christian by definition accepts the teachings of the Bible.  There are teachings in the Bible which were directed only to Israel which lived at that time several thousand years ago and do not apply to Christians today.  One has to have rudimentary knowledge of the Bible to understand the Old Testament for example.  

Edited March 5, 2018 by blackbird

[blackbird]

2 hours ago, ?Impact said:

There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. - 1 Corinthians 10:13

I guess you are saying that God didn't give us free will?

Yes, they certainly can. Of course that implies they can be easily manipulated to your way of thinking as well.

I see you are on besty's side, manipulating people to think your way. You want to force people to live a life of pain and suffering because it makes you feel better.

No.  I don't "manipulate" people to think my way.  The word "manipulate" implies one is trying to do something evil or sinister, which I am not. So it is not manipulation.   I try to convince them with reason and the Holy Bible which is God's inspired word and guide for life.   I only accept the King James Bible as my final authority, realizing I am a sinful person myself and depending on the mercy and grace of God to live and die.

Edited March 5, 2018 by blackbird

[?Impact]

50 minutes ago, blackbird said:

God has made it clear in the King James Bible that life is sacred and belong to him.  Nobody has the right to kill other people, with the exception of self defence as in the military, police or legal capital punishment for murder after due process.

Not sure that is in the Bible, perhaps you were reading the Qur'an because that is how it is phrased in there.

50 minutes ago, blackbird said:

No.  I don't "manipulate" people to think my way.  The word "manipulate" implies one is trying to do something evil or sinister, which I am not.

So you don't see anything evil or sinister to condemning someone to a life of pain and suffering?

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, ?Impact said:

Not sure that is in the Bible, perhaps you were reading the Qur'an because that is how it is phrased in there.

So you don't see anything evil or sinister to condemning someone to a life of pain and suffering?

I don't condemn anyone to anything.  Already said the medical system has pain killers for patients.  The solution is not to make people think they have no choice and must choose doctor-assisted suicide or suffer pain.  That's a lie.  We have palliative care which has been looking after people for years with various illnesses and diseases.   Will see what the Bible says about your other question.

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, ?Impact said:

Not sure that is in the Bible, perhaps you were reading the Qur'an because that is how it is phrased in there.

So you don't see anything evil or sinister to condemning someone to a life of pain and suffering?

Capital punishment is taught in the Bible:   "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man." Genesis 9:6

"

1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."

Romans ch13:1-4

These verses show the government has the authority to deal with law breakers.   The matter of killing people outside of lawful authority which is in accordance with the Bible is stated in Exodus   "thou shalt not kill"   Exodus 20:13

[dialamah]

2 hours ago, blackbird said:

God has made it clear in the King James Bible that life is sacred and belong to him.  Nobody has the right to kill other people, with the exception of self defence as in the military, police or legal capital punishment for murder after due process. 

Where does the bible mention "Due Process"?    

Quote

I never said an LGBTQ child should re "rejected" by parents. 

I never said you did; I only said that it happens and such children are around 8 times more likely to commit suicide than straight youth.

2 hours ago, blackbird said:

It has been reported there are a far higher incidence of suicide among transgender people than normal people and likely a higher percentage of suicide among all LGBTQ people than among heterosexual people.  That does not mean the solution is to approve of LGBTQ lifestyles or practices.  But again people should be treated with respect whoever they are.

If the Christian faith teaches that LGBTQ people are unacceptable to God and to the Church, would that not be seen as rejection by kids?   If rejection by parents and community results in suicide, does it matter how respectful you are when you tell someone that they are unacceptable?

Now I appreciate that you believe it's important to treat people with respect.   But if your child's school were supporting a straight-gay alliance, or was providing information on LGBTQ, would you object to that or would you accept it as a way to offer respect to LGBTQ children, to help such kids to feel accepted and to reduce suicide?  I realize that you do not speak for all Christians, but I don't want to assume wrong things about you personally.

 

[dialamah]

49 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I don't condemn anyone to anything.  Already said the medical system has pain killers for patients.  The solution is not to make people think they have no choice and must choose doctor-assisted suicide or suffer pain.  That's a lie.  We have palliative care which has been looking after people for years with various illnesses and diseases.   Will see what the Bible says about your other question.

Have you ever seen someone near the end of life?

We don't really have palliative care, at least not for everybody.  Its for those who can afford it, who have family and friends who can advocate for it.  Otherwise, you are just as likely to be booted home to die alone, no care and certainly no pain meds.  

If someone chooses and can afford and find palliative care for themselves or their loved ones, I support that certainly.  But if one knows that their illness is terminal, that they are going to live in severe pain, managed by opiods so powerful they will be essentially unconscious most of the time or with no cognitive ability, why should they be forced to do so?

The Bible and Christians talk about 'free will', yet it seems that free will is not really what God is about.  We must follow his rules, like it or not, or risk burning in eternal torment.  And then if the 'gift of life' given us is so filled with pain that we want only to die, once again our vaunted "free will" is subject to God's will that we should suffer.  Christ on the cross is nothing compared to the pain God inflicts upon some of the humans he "loves" so much, with the instruction that we must suffer it, or else.   These are not the behaviors of a loving being.