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California Judge Rules In Favor Of Christian


betsy

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5 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

 

Obviously I would have no interest in what the Bible has to say about homosexuality.  Might as well as what Tom and Jerry think of it.

I guess you would fit in with the NDP or liberal crowd who support it and are imposing it on society, as Trudeau is doing.  No counter arguments or opinions considered or accepted.

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31 minutes ago, Hal 9000 said:

I've googled a fair bit actually.  I can't find anything except theory that say's programs in schools prevents anything at all.  I can see that people claim "attempted suicide" is down, but that's still just opinion.  I'm willing to listen to facts, just haven't seen any.  What I did find interesting is that gay males commit suicide at a 50% rate more than straight males.  Considering the ratio of gays vs. straights this is very troubling for straight males - but who cares about them, right?  Also, straight males commit suicide at a rate much higher than straight and gay women combined and men both straight and gay combined consist of over 80% of suicides.  This is all staggering. 

What can we do about preventing male suicide?

You are right, men do commit suicide at a higher rate than women.  But in this thread, I believe we are talking about, generally, the Christian attitude toward homosexuality.

And the articles I cited weren't 'opinions', they were actually studies on actual, collected data, by experts in their field.   But I understand that in the post-knowledge world, some people prefer to dismiss experts, facts and evidence in favor of their own uninformed opinion.

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2 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I guess you would fit in with the NDP or liberal crowd who support it and are imposing it on society, as Trudeau is doing.  No counter arguments or opinions considered or accepted.

Imposing what, exactly, on society?  The freedom for people to 'make their own choice', as you keep telling us God supports?  Imposing the idea that we aren't living in a theocracy and therefore we aren't all subject to your views of morality?   I am so glad I'm a liberal-minded person, that I actually believe in the right of people to make their own choices, and not a religious person, preaching love and 'morality' while simultaneously condemning people to death for failing to follow my particular set of beliefs.  Perhaps (some) Christians need to take a page from the extremist Muslims to set up their own Christian land, where everyone follows the rule of the Bible - whether they want to or not, and under pain of death.

Honestly, I thought better of you.  

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3 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I guess you would fit in with the NDP or liberal crowd who support it and are imposing it on society, as Trudeau is doing.  No counter arguments or opinions considered or accepted.

Actually, I'm neither.  I'm probably a libertarian, but I tend to vote conservative.  I'm just tolerant of others, and believe strongly in the separation of church and state.  As an atheist, I believe religion should play no part whatsoever in dictating how anyone should live, other than someone who make the conscious choice to allow it to do so.

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3 minutes ago, dialamah said:

You are right, men do commit suicide at a higher rate than women.  But in this thread, I believe we are talking about, generally, the Christian attitude toward homosexuality.

And the articles I cited weren't 'opinions', they were actually studies on actual, collected data, by experts in their field.   But I understand that in the post-knowledge world, some people prefer to dismiss experts, facts and evidence in favor of their own uninformed opinion.

No, the question was whether school programs reduce suicide rates in gays.  I didn't read the entire report, but everything I did read was theory around "attempted suicide".  If there is proof, I'm willing to have a look, but I feel that I was on a wild goose chase with your article.

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7 minutes ago, dialamah said:

You are right, men do commit suicide at a higher rate than women.  But in this thread, I believe we are talking about, generally, the Christian attitude toward homosexuality.

And the articles I cited weren't 'opinions', they were actually studies on actual, collected data, by experts in their field.   But I understand that in the post-knowledge world, some people prefer to dismiss experts, facts and evidence in favor of their own uninformed opinion.

Do you think that there is any chance that gay men/boys possibly commit suicide for the very same reasons as straight males?  Or is it always tied to homosexuality?

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5 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Imposing what, exactly, on society?  The freedom for people to 'make their own choice', as you keep telling us God supports?  Imposing the idea that we aren't living in a theocracy and therefore we aren't all subject to your views of morality?   I am so glad I'm a liberal-minded person, that I actually believe in the right of people to make their own choices, and not a religious person, preaching love and 'morality' while simultaneously condemning people to death for failing to follow my particular set of beliefs.  Perhaps (some) Christians need to take a page from the extremist Muslims to set up their own Christian land, where everyone follows the rule of the Bible - whether they want to or not, and under pain of death.

Honestly, I thought better of you.  

I believe in the right of people to make their own choices, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with their choices.

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6 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Actually, I'm neither.  I'm probably a libertarian, but I tend to vote conservative.  I'm just tolerant of others, and believe strongly in the separation of church and state.  As an atheist, I believe religion should play no part whatsoever in dictating how anyone should live, other than someone who make the conscious choice to allow it to do so.

Fine, but then don't tell someone like a baker or photographer he has to do something that goes against his conscience.  Otherwise you are imposing your ideology on everyone else and pretending to be "tolerant of others".

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Just now, Hal 9000 said:

Do you think that there is any chance that gay men/boys possibly commit suicide for the very same reasons as straight males?  Or is it always tied to homosexuality?

I think people commit suicide when they feel rejected, unlovable, hopeless and alone.  Christians, Muslims, Sikhs, rednecks and anyone else who thinks that LGBTQ youth are 'going through a phase', 'will grow out of it', 'don't know what they want' and 'are making a choice'  are telling these kids that they are rejects, unlovable, unaccepted and alone.  If there are programs in our schools and in society that give kids a different message to offset the negative ones given by religion and social conservatives, I'm all for it.

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9 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I believe in the right of people to make their own choices, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with their choices.

No, but it seems you are angry with the government for not imposing your choices on the rest of us.

Edited by dialamah
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2 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Fine, but then don't tell someone like a baker or photographer he has to do something that goes against his conscience.  Otherwise you are imposing your ideology on everyone else and pretending to be "tolerant of others".

I'm not sure I am yet, but just for argument's sake, why not?  They have a business licence from the government, don't they?  If they feel so strongly about it, they don't have to have a business.  If St. Catherine can be tortured and executed for her faith, surely getting a different job is not too much for them to do for God?

And what about other prejudices?  Should everybody just be able to refuse service to anyone they don't like?  After all, there's nothing special about religious beliefs.

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1 minute ago, bcsapper said:

I'm not sure I am yet, but just for argument's sake, why not?  They have a business licence from the government, don't they?  If they feel so strongly about it, they don't have to have a business.  If St. Catherine can be tortured and executed for her faith, surely getting a different job is not too much for them to do for God?

And what about other prejudices?  Should everybody just be able to refuse service to anyone they don't like?  After all, there's nothing special about religious beliefs.

I can see we're heading down a rabbit trail.  I will stop at this point. Cheers.

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5 minutes ago, blackbird said:

No, I'm not angry.  It is the liberal and NDP governments that impose their ideology on everyone else.   

What exactly are they imposing that you disagree with?  Is it that they support the right of a gay couple to marry?  Or for a woman to choose to  have an abortion?  As far as I know, those are the only two specifically bits of 'ideology' a Christian might disagree with.  Polls, however, do seem to indicate that the majority of Canadians actually support gay marriage (70%) and abortion (77%).  

Not to mention, these things are not being "imposed" on you, because you - as an individual - are free to do as you wish, to marry someone of the opposite gender, and not have an abortion.    On the other hand, if you had your way, I would not be free to do as I wished, whether to marry someone of the same gender, or have an abortion.   

Is there some other way that I'm missing that NDP and Liberals "impose" things on Christians?

 

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18 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I think people commit suicide when they feel rejected, unlovable, hopeless and alone.  Christians, Muslims, Sikhs, rednecks and anyone else who thinks that LGBTQ youth are 'going through a phase', 'will grow out of it', 'don't know what they want' and 'are making a choice'  are telling these kids that they are rejects, unlovable, unaccepted and alone.  If there are programs in our schools and in society that give kids a different message to offset the negative ones given by religion and social conservatives, I'm all for it.

Ok, so I'll take that as a yes, gays and straights commit suicide for similar reasons.  OK, with that being equal and knowing that the male gay population is more or less 5%, that would indicate a significant amount of males committing suicide for very similar reasons as gays?  Wouldn't it be fair to have a school program that addresses everybody as equals?  But no, we have studies and programs for the gays and couldn't give a shit about the straight boys - "suck it up fellas, no one cares".  And we wonder why these kids grab a gun and start shooting up a school.

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Just now, Hal 9000 said:

Ok, so I'll take that as a yes, gays and straights commit suicide for similar reasons.  OK, with that being equal and knowing that the male gay population is more or less 5%, that would indicate a significant amount of males committing suicide for very similar reasons as gays?  Wouldn't it be fair to have a school program that addresses everybody as equals?  But no, we have studies and programs for the gays and couldn't give a shit about the straight boys - "suck it up fellas, no one cares".  And we wonder why these kids grab a gun and start shooting up a school.

I know you don't believe in data and all, but the cites I provided indicated that gay/bi/transgender kids attempt suicide at a rate 5 to 8 times higher than straight kids.  Presumably, that would translate to gay/bi/transgender kids succeeding at suicide at a rate 5 to 8 times higher than straight kids.

So no, it's not the same and no, boys are not committing suicide at the same rate (even if for similar feelings of rejection and disenfranchisement) as gay/bi/transgender kids.

 

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4 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I know you don't believe in data and all, but the cites I provided indicated that gay/bi/transgender kids attempt suicide at a rate 5 to 8 times higher than straight kids.  Presumably, that would translate to gay/bi/transgender kids succeeding at suicide at a rate 5 to 8 times higher than straight kids.

So no, it's not the same and no, boys are not committing suicide at the same rate (even if for similar feelings of rejection and disenfranchisement) as gay/bi/transgender kids.

 

Attempt suicide of 5-8 times, but succeed just 50% more.  Your presumption is exactly what stat takers want you to believe.  That means that either some have multiple attempts or they're not truthful (either side) in their interviews - because really, it is based on conversations with living kids.  So, by the numbers, straight young men are committing suicide in alarming numbers - higher numbers than any demographic.    

BTW, I never claimed that they're committing suicide at the same rate.

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9 minutes ago, Hal 9000 said:

Attempt suicide of 5-8 times, but succeed just 50% more.  Your presumption is exactly what stat takers want you to believe.  That means that either some have multiple attempts or they're not truthful (either side) in their interviews - because really, it is based on conversations with living kids.  So, by the numbers, straight young men are committing suicide in alarming numbers - higher numbers than any demographic.    

BTW, I never claimed that they're committing suicide at the same rate.

This doesn't make any sense to me.  Can you provide some data showing that heterosexual young males are actually committing suicide at a higher rate than LGBTQ young males?

By the way, this from Stats Canada; it's not specific to youth, but to suicide overall among all age groups:

Quote

Research shows that mental illness is the most important risk factor for suicide; and that more than 90% of people who commit suicide have a mental or addictive disorder.1,2 Depression is the most common illness among those who die from suicide, with approximately 60% suffering from this condition.3,4 No single determinant, including mental illness, is enough on its own to cause a suicide. Rather, suicide typically results from the interaction of many factors, for example: mental illness, marital breakdown, financial hardship, deteriorating physical health, a major loss, or a lack of social support.5

 

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22 minutes ago, dialamah said:

This doesn't make any sense to me.  Can you provide some data showing that heterosexual young males are actually committing suicide at a higher rate than LGBTQ young males?

By the way, this from Stats Canada; it's not specific to youth, but to suicide overall among all age groups:

 

Not at a higher rate as a percentage of that demographic, I've stated that at least twice now.  I'm saying that it's in much higher numbers.  The obvious fact is; there is way more straight males than gay, therefore the amount of straight males that commit suicide is drastically higher.

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20 hours ago, bcsapper said:

Absolutely.  Any Christian would be allowed to stay alive until their God sent for them, if that's what they want.  The very best care they can afford should be given until that moment.  I'm not in favour of killing anyone who wants to hang on.

Lots of things we have can be corrupted, but we still have them, because it's worth it.  That's why there are laws.  For when they become corrupted.

Therefore, the law,  is one who's got control whether you should live, or die.

 

Look what happened to a boy in UK - and I don't think that's about euthanasia either.  His parents fought it out in court.  They want to give him the chance to live.    It's simply the systems wouldn't allow the parents to take the boy outside the country for treatment!    Who's in control? 

 

That's what I'm saying when I responded to the post of another poster who imagine he's got control over his death.  It's just an idea. 

To have a say whether you want to end it, and how.   Dying with dignity.  An idea that seems ideal - but it's not reality. 

Heck, a minor can't even refuse treatment (if he's terminally ill), and be left to die with dignity - IN HIS FAITH! 

If it's about faith - forget it.  They don't see the dignity in dying,  wrapped in one's faith. 

 

We live in a world with shallow values, where-in common sense seems to not exist anymore.  

 

What does the law really knows about something that's psychological in a person?  Whether the person is truly wanting to die, or simply have been "led" to that idea by others?  We have laws against murder and rape - does the law stop them from being committed?

Would you agree that women who have post-partum blues should be able to access assisted suicide?  Depression is also a painful thing to go through, though it's not readily visible to the naked eye. 

What about addicts who are forever trying to fight addiction, but always losing?  Should we allow them to have access to assisted suicide....just to end it all?   Who's more relieved in the end?  Who benefit the most?  The one who committed suicide.....or the ones who don't have to put up with him anymore?

 

 

 

 

Edited by betsy
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8 hours ago, dialamah said:

I asked you if a choice of do it or die is a real choice.   I see you don't want to answer.  Fair enough.  :)

 

:rolleyes:

If that's your question, of course it is a choice.  But that's not your question, is it?

Here's your post.  You asked:


 

Quote

 

Explain to me again how "Do what I say or DIE" is the same as 'free will' and an actual choice? 

 

When Christians are presented that choice by Islamists, do you stand by those Christians who CHOSE to die, or do you stand by those Christians who chose to LIVE?

 

 

 

 

It's not that I didn't want to respond.  It's not the question you asked.  Just because you threw in the term "chose," doesn't make your question anywhere near like what you're asking me now. 

 

 

Edited by betsy
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7 hours ago, bcsapper said:

 

Obviously I would have no interest in what the Bible has to say about homosexuality.  Might as well as what Tom and Jerry think of it.

Which proves the point that a non-believer is the last person you'd want to argue with about faith.  He doesn't care about the Scriptures, nor believe about faith. 

 

But, a Christian - like the bakers in this topic - would be.

Don't forget, these Christians are being persecuted for believing in what the Bible says about homosexuality. 

Edited by betsy
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