Jerusalem is Israel's Capital...

[Scott Mayers]

14 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

The ironic thing here is that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel.

That is reality, but President Trump is the one accused of being mentally unstable ?

"Jerusalem" in ancient history was a 'capital' of ALL people, not merely the Jewish. Their claims even then were an intolerant interpretation of a 'Temple', just as Christianity and other irrational peoples of all times have redressed in similar vein. 

Note that a "Temple" was actually a civilization's 'temporary' meeting place of ALL peoples of different groups ('tribes' originally prior to settlements). The original "Jew" was ANY transient-oriented peoples who originally did NOT yet "settle" or were the collective (non-identifying) of rejects of settled peoples, not an actual 'religion'. The Jerusalem temple was a remnant outposting of the last dying Egyptian empire. Temples were literally a PUBLIC meeting place (not religious) that acted as an accounting, trading, and officiating court between various transient groups. But as others later became dumb to the actual origins, intolerant cults came along demanding SPECIAL claim to these centers as though they had some unique group's purpose. "Jews" transitioned into a more and more puritanical and intolerant group back then who did as many groups in all similar situations of that stage of development do: they steal the 'ownership' claim as 'landrights' of some older times. 

You don't have to agree to me here but note this 'belief' is as equally and more likely original type of reality that existed in ancient times that has a more 'neutral' interpretation that ALL the peoples of the original Jerusalem was NOT for ANY specific group, not Judaism, not Christianity, ...not Muslim. 

IF you take time in more recent 'claims' as at least more valid regardless of which  history is 'true', the Muslims, NOT the Jews have better claim to them. IF this is NOT accepted, the ONLY rational solution is to assure the best peace is to remove ALL OWNERSHIP claims to ANY group. This would be the rational means of the external world to take when sincerely wanting to make peace there. 

This act, as with the present Israeli governments continued inflexibility and increasing intolerance, makes Trumps act, one of some intentional hypocritical respect for some ethnicity (-ies) over others AND with official status. It is a violent act that will no doubt only aid to foster war, something that the extreme right-wing politics favors.

[Altai]

Please look at my Palestine Israel information pol topic. There were different groups living in the region. Jews came there first as immigrants and they invaded the region in time. Today they want their ancient illegal state back. This is the story as summary.

[Altai]

Even its mentioned in Quran that they are allowed to enter region to ensure peace and justice. Then its also mention in Quran that they promise Allah that they wont kick anyone out and they will act with justice. Then they starts to get mad in time and they behave cruel against any other groups. Historical records are the same with religios documents.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Altai

[Scott Mayers]

4 hours ago, Altai said:

Do you guys know that Jarusalem means "The city of islam"

 

Now you know 

"Je-" and "Ye-" beginnings, which originate most related languages to this day, means both "I" and "The" (as in 'one'). 

"-ra", from our African/Egyptian roots, derived from the sound of lions that indicated power of force, and evolved into generally meaning any such FORCEFUL factor, specifically the "rays" of light from the sun [note lions, with the mane and its orange, sunlike appearance, relates. 

"-us-" could be from "Asher" ('A-Syria); but the "el" or "al", when placed at the END of words was a way to assert an ULTIMATE "thee" without defining, like a variable or article. For instance, when 'el'am', then likely refers to the "elohim" or, in general, "ALL ORIGINS_sources" (such as 'gods' collectively, or, even secularly, as ANY major cause of nature). 

So, "Jerusalem", likely meant, "I (or that which) sees ALL sources (or all the gods) , as the equivalent secular-and-religious shared meaning. A temple was NOT a place for a specific god, but the first stage of civil evolution as tribes settle down. Jerusalem also was an outpost of the time of Akhenaten (akin- to the [shaper]) [The sun's perfect circular shape was the ultimate container. "Adam" derives of this too, which means that which is shaped (has solid boundaries).]

Compare other similar names: Joshua (je-zheu) [the Sis (the same)]...Aramaic; Jesus (Je-sus) ["the same as" == "the Zeus"]...Greek. 

[bush_cheney2004]

17 minutes ago, Scott Mayers said:

...This act, as with the present Israeli governments continued inflexibility and increasing intolerance, makes Trumps act, one of some intentional hypocritical respect for some ethnicity (-ies) over others AND with official status. It is a violent act that will no doubt only aid to foster war, something that the extreme right-wing politics favors.

 

Jerusalem is the capital of Israel on land that is internationally recognized (West Jerusalem) as part of Israel since the 1948 war.

Domestically in the United States, Congress passed a law (Jerusalem Embassy Act) in 1995 that recognizes this reality, as leveraged by many U.S. presidential candidates.   Israel is an ally of the United States...Palestine is not.

Israel gets to decide where its capital will exist, not international opinion in the context of the Palestinian conflict.

Ottawa is on First Nations ( Algonquin ) land...should it not be recognized as the capital of Canada ?

[Scott Mayers]

23 minutes ago, Altai said:

Please look at my Palestine Israel information pol topic. There were different groups living in the region. Jews came there first as immigrants and they invaded the region in time. Today they want their ancient illegal state back. This is the story as summary.

Can you specifically name or link your topic? 

Yes, this may be. Israel/Palestine is not the only place of this issue. I believe that this occurs in all evolutions/revolutions of intellectual beings from a tribal (transient types) in conflict with settled lands. The "jews" (smallcase 'j', to indicate my interpretation of the wanderers, as similar to the word "jew-el" meant those that easily travel [see that 'el' above.]) were of no distinct group but were the remnant various peoples that acted as traders in transit going from place to place with no land claims. But as lands WERE being claimed, this conflict is similar to the North American tribes (not all) who lived in hunting gathering lifestyles with only TEMPORARY settlements. So the original "jews" that evolved were just a part of those 'aboriginals' of the Middle East. The original 'promised land' was Egypt, not Palestine; Palestine was a secondary afterthought and consolation after the fall of Akhenaten, Tut,.....[(last)Ramesses]. Akhenaten was the first kind of attempt to overthrow their in-day 'multicultural' society by demanding that their temples become ONLY of ONE specific tribe's origin priests (tribal reps). They, like the Jews later, and then Jesus also, re-interpreted temples as religious places rather than TEMPorary meeting places of the collective tribes of the past. Even then the history of their past was relatively 'ancient' and lost to certain agreement. As such, some believed their governing places should NOT be 'secular'. 

Thus, the first 'religions' of the monotheistic types were intolerant unsettled peoples who were angry at the losses of their freedom to travel as lands and places were being 'claimed' up. This 'conservative' set of peoples wanted to fight to take over the settlements to claim as their own just as modern natives in North America want to 'reclaim' what they felt they were tricked out of because of settlements in places they thought was 'un-ownable' and free to wander through without being trolled.

 

[Scott Mayers]

20 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Jerusalem is the capital of Israel on land that is internationally recognized (West Jerusalem) as part of Israel since the 1948 war.

Domestically in the United States, Congress passed a law (Jerusalem Embassy Act) in 1995 that recognizes this reality, as leveraged by many U.S. presidential candidates.   Israel is an ally of the United States...Palestine is not.

Israel gets to decide where its capital will exist, not international opinion in the context of the Palestinian conflict.

Ottawa is on First Nations ( Algonquin ) land...should it not be recognized as the capital of Canada ?

I don't care what or which groups 'agreed' or not external to those not empowered to decide otherwise. 

I disagree with the treaties and any POSTERITY claims of some specific set of peoples based solely on one's genetic roots and ethical linking to the behaviors of those ancestors. I don't "own" my parents sins. I am also not hypocritical to think that ANY 'ownership' is justified to INHERIT (as "HERITAGE" is related here). So no, even the Algonquin, do not OWN the land any more than the aboriginal Jew nor Muslim of Palestine/Israel-area is justly privileged to some 'ownership security by some God/nature'. I too was BORN ON THIS EARTH. But I was born without any right to land even based on 'economic ownership' not inherited to me. The whole crap in this world is all about claims of land.

Ottawa is not OWNED by 'whites' nor any specific 'religious link' (culture). While you ARE correct in terms of some, like Trudeau, they DO BELIEVE there is an 'INHERENT' privilege to favor "Catholic French" and "Anglican English" by the wealth establishments. This is the reason they are supporting an equal discriminatory union with the "First Nations". If our government accepted the actual universal NON_biased "ownership" to all Canadians, they'd require being SPECIFICALLY liable to the discrimination they OWN towards the very aboriginals their own ancestors created harm against. I do NOT believe our country is universally 'tolerant'.

So you can't hold your comparison of my stance as hypocritical because I don't 'own' anything here by our Constitution. Canada is young in comparison to the Middle Eastern states. Given the significant history of the Middle East, like Palestine/Israel, the nature of their own problems indicates what WILL occur here too eventually, especially if we don't realize that our constitution was fraudulently created to foster the very division those creators are pretending to not be. The topic here is Israel and while I agree that we need to contrast to remain non-hypocritical with ourselves here, my stance is definitely not valid to compare to Canada where I didn't have the power to create. I'm in the extreme minority even here, especially in today's biased politics. Israel's support by us in North America is what I'm against, equally with any other intolerant states without or within.

 

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, Scott Mayers said:

So you can't hold your comparison of my stance as hypocritical because I don't 'own' anything here by our Constitution. Canada is young in comparison to the Middle Eastern states. Given the significant history of the Middle East, like Palestine/Israel, the nature of their own problems indicates what WILL occur here too eventually, especially if we don't realize that our constitution was fraudulently created to foster the very division those creators are pretending to not be.

 

This has nothing to do with your stance or position on such matters.   Reality doesn't care what you (or I ) think about this or any other land conflict on the planet.   I have already stated that nobody has the right to land, but they do have the capacity to fight for possession.

Quote

The topic here is Israel and while I agree that we need to contrast to remain non-hypocritical with ourselves here, my stance is definitely not valid to compare to Canada where I didn't have the power to create. I'm in the extreme minority even here, especially in today's biased politics. Israel's support by us in North America is what I'm against, equally with any other intolerant states without or within.

 

Can't have it both ways...the topic is Israel's capital, and international recognition thereof.   It is very common here to try and control the scope of debate when Israel is the target; every attempt is made to discount and ignore the past and present circumstances of many other nations' actions and subjugation that pre-date the State of Israel by many generations.

Israel's capital is Jerusalem regardless of what you are for or against.   This is an incontrovertible fact.

[Scott Mayers]

41 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

This has nothing to do with your stance or position on such matters.   Reality doesn't care what you (or I ) think about this or any other land conflict on the planet.   I have already stated that nobody has the right to land, but they do have the capacity to fight for possession.

 

Can't have it both ways...the topic is Israel's capital, and international recognition thereof.   It is very common here to try and control the scope of debate when Israel is the target; every attempt is made to discount and ignore the past and present circumstances of many other nations' actions and subjugation that pre-date the State of Israel by many generations.

Israel's capital is Jerusalem regardless of what you are for or against.   This is an incontrovertible fact.

"Israel's capital is Jersusalem," is controversial. It is also irrelevant to simply dismiss in light of the actual problems existing because of this. Or do you think we are discussing some mystical place in some movie or novel? 

We CAN pressure Israel (by FORCE) to abandon this regardless of opinion and to remove bias, prevent ANY cult from claiming ownership. Washington D.C. was designed in light of this kind of approach. They created it to be untied to any state (thus being in unaffiliated "district" of neither Virginia nor Maryland to which it is bordered. This is what should be the case with "Israel" as it would certainly be most appealing to everyone in the world, including the rivaling religions. Its either that, or just let us all stop giving a shit about everyone else and opt for PURE FORCE. You know...give carte blanche to the extremes. There is no less injustice to assert anyone to maintain 'terrorism' your argument for anyone. Who cares about popular opinion if you're being forced to 'sacrifice' yourself for those who hate you by default, right?

Edited December 7, 2017 by Scott Mayers

[Scott Mayers]

bush_cheney2004,

Everyone 'agrees' that the present continents of North America, Africa, and Eurasia were all of one landmass, called "Pangea". [Absurd example of appealing to the meaning of "what the capital of Israel is". Who was there, for instance to name it. The technical nature of the MEANING is what is at issue, not some select opinion of fact.]

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Scott Mayers said:

"Israel's capital is Jersusalem." IS in controversy. It is also irrelevant to simply dismiss in light of the actual problems existing because of this. Or do you think we are discussing some mystical place in some movie or novel?

 

It is only a "controversy" in the context of the battle for international leverage and partisan politics.   Jerusalem has been the capital of Israel for many years regardless of any such controversy.   Pretending otherwise only continues a political drama and false pretense.

Quote

We CAN pressure Israel (by FORCE) to abandon this regardless of opinion and to remove bias, prevent ANY cult from claiming ownership. Washington D.C. was designed in light of this kind of approach. They created it to be untied to any state (thus being in unaffiliated "district" of neither Virginia nor Maryland to which it is bordered. This is what should be the case with "Israel" as it would certainly be most appealing to everyone in the world, including the rivaling religions. Its either that, or just let us all stop giving a shit about everyone else and opt for PURE FORCE. You know...give carte blanche to the extremes. There is no less injustice to assert anyone to maintain 'terrorism' your argument for anyone. Who cares about popular opinion if you're being forced to 'sacrifice' yourself for those who hate you by default, right?

 

The irony here is clear...pressure Israel (by FORCE) while appeasing Israel's enemies with religious concessions and moderation.   Further irony is offered in the way of Washington D.C. as an example of appealing compromise.

Getting back to reality, a U.S. president has formally executed the legislation passed over 20 years ago in his nation.   The U.S. is an ally of Israel and is not controlled by the opinions of other nations.   If U.S. recognition of Jerusalem's reality destabilizes the world, then the world is very unstable indeed.

[marcus]

17 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Russia recognized West Jerusalem as Israel's capital last year:

 

 

That's cool. Who cares if the U.S. moves their embassy to a city that is internationally recognized as being part of Israel.

[Bonam]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

It is only a "controversy" in the context of the battle for international leverage and partisan politics.   Jerusalem has been the capital of Israel for many years regardless of any such controversy.   Pretending otherwise only continues a political drama and false pretense.

Indeed. People are being silly, talking about "ancient history" or trying to decompose the meaning of the name "Jerusalem". None of that matters. In practice, Jerusalem has been the capital of Israel for almost 70 years now. Other countries pretending it ain't so doesn't change the reality. 

[bush_cheney2004]

7 minutes ago, Scott Mayers said:

bush_cheney2004,

Everyone 'agrees' that the present continents of North America, Africa, and Eurasia were all of one landmass, called "Pangea". [Absurd example of appealing to the meaning of "what the capital of Israel is". Who was there, for instance to name it. The technical nature of the MEANING is what is at issue, not some select opinion of fact.]

 

No, that is not the case at all.    "Everyone" does not agree on the theory of "Pangea", as plate tectonics is far more complex than that.

No matter, as all you have done is reinforce the idea that the people who control land get to decide what it will be, until other people take possession of the same land.   Accordingly, Israel gets to determine where its capital city is, and the U.S. gets to recognize this reality regardless of international opinion.

[marcus]

2 minutes ago, Bonam said:

Indeed. People are being silly, talking about "ancient history" or trying to decompose the meaning of the name "Jerusalem". None of that matters. In practice, Jerusalem has been the capital of Israel for almost 70 years now. Other countries pretending it ain't so doesn't change the reality. 

East Jerusalem is not recognized as being part of the internationally recognized border of Israel.  It's part of Palestinian territory. 

[Bonam]

19 minutes ago, marcus said:

East Jerusalem is not recognized as being part of the internationally recognized border of Israel.  It's part of Palestinian territory. 

Who is talking about east Jerusalem? 

[bush_cheney2004]

President Trump has stripped away an international fig leaf, and the Palestinian supporters don't like it.

That would make it a good thing.

[OftenWrong]

7 hours ago, Altai said:

Do you guys know that Jarusalem means "The city of islam"

 

Now you know 

The city existed and was called Jerusalem long before Muhammad was even born.

[Scott Mayers]

Guys, the statement by Trump was not to distinguish which of East or West was "Jerusalem" but to assign with official arrogant force that the U.S. supports the contested view of Israel to the WHOLE city as theirs with clear and direct bias with disdain, against the Muslims and the whole world of Muslims. Otherwise, Trumps words had no NEED to be spoken. 

Oftenwrong, the city was only taken by the Jewish supremacists in a war they instigated to 'justify' a retroactive theft in return. The 'settlements' too are clear indicators of their criminal behavior. The idea is to separate and ISOLATE (as abusers do) to the Muslims there. This was already being done in the past. Their discrimination is also indicated in the past by the fact that they took 'ownership' of particular properties and called it a Nation. This would be like Chinatown in Vancouver declaring that part of Vancouver as now "China's Zion" with its own segregate special laws, etc. 

[bush_cheney2004]

Joe Clark, Prime Minister of Canada, also announced plans to move Canada's embassy to Jerusalem....OVER 40 YEARS AGO:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/jerusalem-embassy-tel-aviv-clark-1.4436795

[bush_cheney2004]

5 minutes ago, Scott Mayers said:

...This would be like Chinatown in Vancouver declaring that part of Vancouver as now "China's Zion" with its own segregate special laws, etc. 

 

...or Victoria BC declaring that it is part of Canada's "Zion".

But it doesn't have to....God Save the Queen !

 

[Scott Mayers]

I already clarified the other Presidents THOUGHT about doing this. Add to this ANY leader of the past, like Joe Clark. This is not news to me. ALL of these past leaders backed off or out of their prior positions when they took offices and participated in the actual politics in practice. 

 

"Canada" is presumably a "multicultural" country. While it is certainly limited in what 'cultures' they Constitutionally favor, Canada is still NOT a 'fascist' state. They don't claim to serve ONE Constitution that serves ONE religiously and genetically favored group. The Aboriginals, as a class, though is interpreted as this and to what WILL in our future be the problem as we permit supporting segregate 'national rights'. 

 

You missed the point before too that Washington D.C. is NOT of any 'state'. If this was done in Palestine, you'd have two distinct states with clear and agreed to boundaries that are fair, and have Jerusalem be of neither Israel nor Palestine, but, perhaps, a 'district' OWNED by ALL states of the Middle East. That's what the United States intended and successfully achieved. Let Israel have a distinct "State Capital" apart from the very Jerusalem that the is the problem. It worked for the U.S..

[bush_cheney2004]

11 minutes ago, Scott Mayers said:

I already clarified the other Presidents THOUGHT about doing this. Add to this ANY leader of the past, like Joe Clark. This is not news to me. ALL of these past leaders backed off or out of their prior positions when they took offices and participated in the actual politics in practice.

 

Good....then we can agree that President Trump has done nothing different than what has been "announced" by previous national leaders, including the Russian Federation last year.    All is consistent and well.

 

Quote

"Canada" is presumably a "multicultural" country. While it is certainly limited in what 'cultures' they Constitutionally favor, Canada is still NOT a 'fascist' state. They don't claim to serve ONE Constitution that serves ONE religiously and genetically favored group. The Aboriginals, as a class, though is interpreted as this and to what WILL in our future be the problem as we permit supporting segregate 'national rights'.

 

Canada, like the United States, is severely flawed in that regard, past and present for many different groups.   Religious preferences actually were a mainstay in Canada's founding.   "Aboriginals" is a racist, imperialist word that correctly reflects Canada's history (i.e. Canadian Zion).

 

Quote

You missed the point before too that Washington D.C. is NOT of any 'state'. If this was done in Palestine, you'd have two distinct states with clear and agreed to boundaries that are fair, and have Jerusalem be of neither Israel nor Palestine, but, perhaps, a 'district' OWNED by ALL states of the Middle East. That's what the United States intended and successfully achieved. Let Israel have a distinct "State Capital" apart from the very Jerusalem that the is the problem. It worked for the U.S..

 

Israel is not the U.S., but it it more than capable of establishing its own geo-political boundaries and districts just as the U.S. did (through wars).

Israel is not required to compromise on this matter just to appease its enemies.

Edited December 8, 2017 by bush_cheney2004

[Scott Mayers]

What's your point Bush_Cheney? You just seem to be repeating yourself. If you don't think there is anything wrong, I already heard you on that. But you aren't adding any argument distinctly than a type of "it is what it is" kind of argument. I only guess from your namesake that you support a right-wing preferential and likely religious need to have Israel bring about the end-of-times?

If present power is the only justice you have for Israel's 'right' to do anything, then do you agree with Hitlers' similar stance when he was in power for his atrocities against the Jews in the Holocaust? I mean....it was their 'law' of his present ownership by right of force....stronger "willpower"! I hope I don't find you being hypocritical to 'support' any other cause here or anywhere else in the world. If might is right, that is all that matters. 

Are you just admittedly biased for Israel for personal reasons? Do you not see an advantage of an American-style distinct capital as Washington D.C.? Should Ottawa not just become both the capital of Ontario AND Canada as a whole? Would that possibly not bias Ottawa to be bound biased to Ontario versus the rest of Canada (like it kinda is given they don't separately treat Ottawa as 'provinceless'?

 

[bush_cheney2004]

14 minutes ago, Scott Mayers said:

What's your point Bush_Cheney? You just seem to be repeating yourself. If you don't think there is anything wrong, I already heard you on that. But you aren't adding any argument distinctly than a type of "it is what it is" kind of argument. I only guess from your namesake that you support a right-wing preferential and likely religious need to have Israel bring about the end-of-times?

 

No, I have never offered any religious preferences on this forum save for rights enumerated by Constitution or Charter.  

I believe in applied physics, not "gods'.   Accordingly, I will repeat present day reality over fantasy political fig leaves.

 

Quote

If present power is the only justice you have for Israel's 'right' to do anything, then do you agree with Hitlers' similar stance when he was in power for his atrocities against the Jews in the Holocaust? I mean....it was their 'law' of his present ownership by right of force....stronger "willpower"! I hope I don't find you being hypocritical to 'support' any other cause here or anywhere else in the world. If might is right, that is all that matters.

 

Godwin's Law (Hitler) will not save your position on this matter.   Power matters...then and now.   And right now Israel has the power.

 

Quote

Are you just admittedly biased for Israel for personal reasons? Do you not see an advantage of an American-style distinct capital as Washington D.C.? Should Ottawa not just become both the capital of Ontario AND Canada as a whole? Would that possibly not bias Ottawa to be bound biased to Ontario versus the rest of Canada (like it kinda is given they don't separately treat Ottawa as 'provinceless'?

 

Israel is an ally of the United States....Palestine is not.

Washington D.C.'s  actual history is more complicated, despite the provision for federal district in the Constitution.   Algonquin land was involved here as well, state donations, war with Britain, slavery, civil war, land recession (Virginia).    Israel is perfectly capable of defining and developing its own capital through such adversity and has done exactly that (e.g. multiple wars).   Power matters...."justice" sips from a fountain of power.

I don't care what Canada/Ontario do with Ottawa, other than serving as a great example of a national capital built on "stolen land".  It serves my rhetorical purposes in this and any anti-Israeli thread.

Edited December 8, 2017 by bush_cheney2004