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Liberals to increase immigration to 350,000+


Argus

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2 hours ago, Argus said:

Well, that is the reason given. However, one of those Statistics Canada studies I posted in the OP said that we could maintain our population with just 100,000 immigrants a year. So why are we moving towards 350,000? Second, I hate to harp on this, but given our progressive tax system, in which the bottom half of Canadians only pay 3% of the income tax while the top half pay the other 97%, if our immigrants are earning poor wages they're not contributing taxes, they're consuming them. That is why we should be taking only the most skilled and capable of immigrants able to earn decent salaries.

And does anyone think those 60-70k 'refugees' we're bringing in every year, who have no job skills, little education, no language skills, etc. are going to be making high salaries?

Yes, and if we didn't have 100,000 abortions a year, we might be able to reduce immigration by at least that amount.  I suspect high immigration numbers has more to do with political parties hoping to make political gain by it.

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12 hours ago, Bonam said:

Sorry but this is just oft-repeated BS. There are no jobs that no one is willing to do... just jobs that no one is willing to do for rock bottom wages. The way capitalism is supposed to work is when labour gets scarce, companies compete for workers by raising wages and improving benefits and working conditions. Instead, the very same people that criticize companies for paying rock bottom wages (i.e. liberals) also are in complete support of the main mechanism by which wages are kept so low... flooding the labour markets with masses of immigrants that are willing to do any job for a low price as they get settled in. 

Restaurant jobs in toronto are paying $14-15 an hour plus tip out so $close to $18 an hour on average.  How much more should they offer?  The labor shortages means working conditions get worse because less workers to do same volume of work.  Companies will almost never voluntarily raise wages, they will only do it in response to government forcing them.  Why would they?  IN a free market you are right, but with exception of somalia, afghanistan and some places like cambodia and east europe, these true free markets don't exist.  The Canadian market is highly regulated and manipulated, etc.

 

12 hours ago, Bonam said:

Stop the flood of cheap labour and all those businesses that will supposedly shut down without immigration will just have to pay better wages, wages which will actually allow their workers to live reasonably in the cities they serve. And they'll have to raise their prices a bit to compensate. Boo-freaking-hoo. 

No, you need to have the gov't raise the wages, the people who run businesses do not run them logically, in many cases, they'd rather shut the business down than pay a higher wage ie. mcdonald's in quebec.

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7 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Cite ?  A surplus ?  How much ?

2. Obviously.  I'm talking about targeting high-end jobs though.

3. 'stealing jobs' isn't an apt term.  It's a market.  If they make $90K, that's a big tax surplus and a net plus to the Canadian economy.  If the US cancels H1B we will take those jobs and those people and win bigly.

1. "A compelling body of research is now available, from many leading academicresearchers and from respected research organizations such as the National Bureau of Economic Research, the RAND Corporation, and the Urban Institute. ... All have concluded that U.S. higher education produces far more science and engineering graduates annually than there are S&E job openings—the only disagreement is whether it is 100 percent or 200 percent more...."

2.  Yes, anti immigrnt resentment doesn't come from a mexican taking a 12 hour fruit picking job on a farm no one wants, it comes from an unemployed stem grad who sees the government letting in foreigners take the job he wanted or having to train your indian replacement.

3. Stealing jobs is highly apt because the employers are committing visa fraud, a form of theft against the workers in collusion with the foreign nationals who they are bringing in to steal local workers jobs. It is a market but there are rules.  If the USA cancels H1Bs, the companies will do 1 of 2 things.  1 replace them with US workers at low wages if possible.  2. Offshore the jobs to India as much as possible.  There is no reason to move the job to Canada.  Canada has higher operating cost than USA in general, but at best slightly lower.  They'd also pay lower knowing that Canadian engineers earn less than in silicon valley.

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2 hours ago, H10 said:

1. "A compelling body of research is now available, from many leading academicresearchers and from respected research organizations such as the National Bureau of Economic Research, the RAND Corporation, and the Urban Institute. ... All have concluded that U.S. higher education produces far more science and engineering graduates annually than there are S&E job openings—the only disagreement is whether it is 100 percent or 200 percent more...."

'Tech' usually refers to Information Technology.  Your cites will include people who took biology, and other fields that aren't as buoyant.  Here's an article that puts the IT unemployment rate at 2.5%.

https://insights.dice.com/2017/05/02/tech-unemployment-rate-level-q1/

2 hours ago, H10 said:

Stealing jobs is highly apt because the employers are committing visa fraud, a form of theft against the workers in collusion with the foreign nationals who they are bringing in to steal local workers jobs. 

I don't know about 'visa fraud'.  It's hardly even necessary if they can offshore jobs.  

2 hours ago, H10 said:

1 replace them with US workers at low wages if possible.  2. Offshore the jobs to India as much as possible.  There is no reason to move the job to Canada.  

Offshoring was declared 'dead' by Gartner 4 years ago, I think.  There is indeed reason to move to Canada.  it's "near shore" with more proximity, fewer language differences, similar laws and practices and same time zone.  I am starting to doubt your expertise in this field of discussion.

They will not have enough onshore resources to do it and wages will rise oppressively.  That's why offshoring happened in the first place.

Anyway, despite your griping, the on-topic discussion is about why this would be a good idea for Canada, ie. accepting IT workers from India, Pakistan, Eastern Europe etc.  It is a good idea.

 

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The problems we have with immigration are multiple, and complex.

Certainly, the quality of refugees that have been dragged here after the Europeans have had their pick do not bode well for a positive outcome.  This seems to be where the Liberal party places most of its emphasis, and one can only conclude that is because they are most likely to hold that vote.   Sad part is: by simply giving the money to those same refugees to stay where there were, about 10x as many could have been helped, and we would not suffer the long term costs - financial and otherwise - of supporting and accomodating them.

I am not terribly sad about so many immigrants going to the big three in cities, as let's face it, they are not really very productive places.  Happy to see the cultural, economic and criminal problems stay where they belong.  

The business of why "traditional" Canadians are not reproducing at a sustainable rate has a lot to do with us not understanding the difference between creating wealth and just re-distributing it.  The latter (allowing in fact PROMOTING speculation as a legitimate way to make money - when it only redistributes it) is what requires Mom and Dad BOTH to have to work to pay for "location, location, location", not to mention the "stuff" that seems to define lifestyle these days.  No time left for those pesky children thingies that keep at least one parent busy 24 x 7 for decades if you want to raise them yourself.   Cost so much to contract what work out, second income is too reduced to have that big mortgage payment.   But, as has already been mentioned, why in the name of anything sane would we want to grow our population at all???   Instead of taxing the living shit out of citizens, we can afford a whole lot better by learning to control totally out of control government spending.   Add to that: kill the speculative crap and costs drop dramatically.

Now: on to those "professionals" coming in from Asian and African countries.  What I have seen is generally the standards of ethics, integrity and professional skills simply are NOT up to "traditional" North American standards.   Yes, there are a few diamonds in all of that rough, so let's take those and keep the other 99 out of 100 right where they belong - at home in Asia or Africa.

Before you simply jump to the conclusion that I am against all immigration unless from some kind of Euro-centric sort of source, nothing could be further from the truth.   I just want to see the Liberal version of seeking quantity replaced by some as-yet-to-be-seen conservative version of quality.  That doesn't mean bring in nothing but PhDs (we have enoughj post hole diggers already) but families who's SECOND generation are most likely to be very successful.  Yeah, right off the first gen, as they will not likely ever just blend in, but their children are a very different story - and the "they" I mean certain countries or people with certain proven accomplishments and successes who will raise their children to take full advantage of the ample opportunites in Canada.  One of my closest friends for many years just immigrated from China to SK.  Both he and his wife are engineers, his professoriate level, but they came here so she can stay at home with their son while he goes out to bring home the bacon (having had as many as 20,000 people under him should tell you he has a pretty good idea how to make stuff happen).  While they got in under immigrant investment programme, it should be pointed out that anyone who can meet those requirements is very, very likely to pay their own way in this country starting pretty much on day 1.   But their children I expect will go on to REALLY contribute as Canadians, borne or naturalized.  What IMHO should be the #1 requirement, though, is that immigrants qualify financially from places or situations where they EARNED their money, not acquired it through privilege and the skim (puts quite a dent in most African candidates).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, H10 said:

Restaurant jobs in toronto are paying $14-15 an hour plus tip out so $close to $18 an hour on average.  How much more should they offer?  The labor shortages means working conditions get worse because less workers to do same volume of work.  Companies will almost never voluntarily raise wages, they will only do it in response to government forcing them.  Why would they?

Sorry, wrong. Wages go up all the time in high demand fields. There's no reason that a computer programmer is inherently worth $120k/year while an insurance agent is worth $50k/year, it's just that one is in greater demand than the other. No one is forcing companies to pay their developers 100-200k, and yet they do, because they need the talent and that's what it costs to get it. $18/hour in Toronto is still meager crap, yes, you can live on it if you're frugal (and I have lived on wages like that) but why would I live in an expensive city to work an $18/hour job? You want a worker, keep raising those wages. 

Quote

No, you need to have the gov't raise the wages, the people who run businesses do not run them logically, in many cases, they'd rather shut the business down than pay a higher wage ie. mcdonald's in quebec.

Fine, then let them close down. Other businesses with better business models will take their place, and it will be better for the workers and the communities that they live in.

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7 hours ago, H10 said:

2.  Yes, anti immigrnt resentment doesn't come from a mexican taking a 12 hour fruit picking job on a farm no one wants, it comes from an unemployed stem grad who sees the government letting in foreigners take the job he wanted or having to train your indian replacement.

There's only one word for an unemployed (for more than a few months) STEM grad: an idiot. It's super easy to get a job in STEM unless you are in the bottom 5-10% of ability in that field. And even the very lowliest entry level STEM jobs will pay $45k/year. Further, STEM jobs at many companies are protected from competition by foreign nationals due to the government's requirements for security clearances. 

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6 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

'Tech' usually refers to Information Technology.  Your cites will include people who took biology, and other fields that aren't as buoyant.  Here's an article that puts the IT unemployment rate at 2.5%.

https://insights.dice.com/2017/05/02/tech-unemployment-rate-level-q1/

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/videos/60-minutes-examines-h-1b-visas-outsourcing-american-jobs/

Tech is more than just IT in my mind

Any how, I cannot explain why your study had the IT unemployment rate so low, without knowing how they came to those numbers or the calculations that went into it.  Most IT people are smart, they will find work packing groceries if they have to rather than being unemployed or homeless in the street.  So its not a question of unemployment, rather a question of being employed in an area that they are trained for.

"Americans are losing jobs to foreigners and training their replacements.

Disney laid off 850 American workers, some of whom were given 90 days to train their replacements with the threat of losing their severance pay if they didn’t stay to the end. “We all felt humiliated when the foreign workers sat next to us and watched everything that we did,” wrote one Disney employee going through the experience. The training sessions prove that the H-1B workers don’t hold special skills that American workers lack. “If our own pool of IT professionals were so incompetent, then why would companies like Disney have us train our replacements and spend months teaching them?” wrote the displaced worker.

So many staff spoke Hindi during their training period that a departing employee remarked, “I really felt like a foreigner in that building.”"

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/judy-frankel/insourcing-american-lose-_b_11173074.html

"As H-1B expert Ron Hira of Howard University in Washington, D.C., testified, “over the past year, in addition to the Southern California Edison case, a number of other cases—including Disney, Northeast Utilities, the Fossil Group, Catalina Marketing, New York Life, Hertz, Toys R Us, and I could keep going on—were highlighted by the press. But these were only the proverbial tip of the iceberg. There are many more cases out there.” Testimony by labor force expert Hal Salzman of Rutgers University, New Brunswick, in New Jersey added that “all evidence and events suggest [that] the substitution of guest workers for U.S. workers is accelerating.”"

 

" they tell a different story in filings to the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC), Salzman noted. “Accenture states that restrictions on guest worker supply would result in ‘new or higher minimum salary requirements and increased costs.’ Another firm says they would have to ‘replace existing offshore resources with local resources, namely U.S. workers, at higher wages.’ That is, without the congressional discount for guest workers, the highly profitable IT industry would have to hire more U.S. workers and pay them more than guest workers.”"

http://www.sciencemag.org/careers/2016/03/displaced-american-stem-workers-spur-senate-hearing

6 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

I don't know about 'visa fraud'.  It's hardly even necessary if they can offshore jobs.  

It is cheaper to bring in labor at first than to outright offshore it from scratch.  After all, even if you intend to offshore, it is more logical to bring in your Indian worker//trainers to California to see how everything is done in America and try to replicate that setup in India.

 

6 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Offshoring was declared 'dead' by Gartner 4 years ago, I think.  There is indeed reason to move to Canada.  it's "near shore" with more proximity, fewer language differences, similar laws and practices and same time zone.  I am starting to doubt your expertise in this field of discussion.

Then it is a contradiction.  If offshoring is dead, there is no reason to move outside the country to a neighbour in a high cost environment with substantial business regulations and high taxes and employer health tax, wsib, ei, cpp and insurance, when they could literally pay 10 Indians who speak fluent English what 1 english-canadian manager would get.  Why would timezone matter, don't be ridiculous here, India is also a common law nation and most Indians who are educated are fluent in English.  Some of those smart Indians getting paid  to work in an offshore firm will work 18 hours a day because they know how rare it is to get the opportunity.

 

6 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

They will not have enough onshore resources to do it and wages will rise oppressively.  That's why offshoring happened in the first place.

Anyway, despite your griping, the on-topic discussion is about why this would be a good idea for Canada, ie. accepting IT workers from India, Pakistan, Eastern Europe etc.  It is a good idea.

 

I don't oppose accepting IT workers from other regions if the jobs are there for them, but I have seen no evidence of a shortage requiring millions of skilled immigrants when we have alot of skilled people struggling to find work here in Canada.

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1 hour ago, cannuck said:

The problems we have with immigration are multiple, and complex.

Certainly, the quality of refugees that have been dragged here after the Europeans have had their pick do not bode well for a positive outcome.  This seems to be where the Liberal party places most of its emphasis, and one can only conclude that is because they are most likely to hold that vote.   Sad part is: by simply giving the money to those same refugees to stay where there were, about 10x as many could have been helped, and we would not suffer the long term costs - financial and otherwise - of supporting and accomodating them.

I am not terribly sad about so many immigrants going to the big three in cities, as let's face it, they are not really very productive places.  Happy to see the cultural, economic and criminal problems stay where they belong.  

The business of why "traditional" Canadians are not reproducing at a sustainable rate has a lot to do with us not understanding the difference between creating wealth and just re-distributing it.  The latter (allowing in fact PROMOTING speculation as a legitimate way to make money - when it only redistributes it) is what requires Mom and Dad BOTH to have to work to pay for "location, location, location", not to mention the "stuff" that seems to define lifestyle these days.  No time left for those pesky children thingies that keep at least one parent busy 24 x 7 for decades if you want to raise them yourself.   Cost so much to contract what work out, second income is too reduced to have that big mortgage payment.   But, as has already been mentioned, why in the name of anything sane would we want to grow our population at all???   Instead of taxing the living shit out of citizens, we can afford a whole lot better by learning to control totally out of control government spending.   Add to that: kill the speculative crap and costs drop dramatically.

Now: on to those "professionals" coming in from Asian and African countries.  What I have seen is generally the standards of ethics, integrity and professional skills simply are NOT up to "traditional" North American standards.   Yes, there are a few diamonds in all of that rough, so let's take those and keep the other 99 out of 100 right where they belong - at home in Asia or Africa.

Before you simply jump to the conclusion that I am against all immigration unless from some kind of Euro-centric sort of source, nothing could be further from the truth.   I just want to see the Liberal version of seeking quantity replaced by some as-yet-to-be-seen conservative version of quality.  That doesn't mean bring in nothing but PhDs (we have enoughj post hole diggers already) but families who's SECOND generation are most likely to be very successful.  Yeah, right off the first gen, as they will not likely ever just blend in, but their children are a very different story - and the "they" I mean certain countries or people with certain proven accomplishments and successes who will raise their children to take full advantage of the ample opportunites in Canada.  One of my closest friends for many years just immigrated from China to SK.  Both he and his wife are engineers, his professoriate level, but they came here so she can stay at home with their son while he goes out to bring home the bacon (having had as many as 20,000 people under him should tell you he has a pretty good idea how to make stuff happen).  While they got in under immigrant investment programme, it should be pointed out that anyone who can meet those requirements is very, very likely to pay their own way in this country starting pretty much on day 1.   But their children I expect will go on to REALLY contribute as Canadians, borne or naturalized.  What IMHO should be the #1 requirement, though, is that immigrants qualify financially from places or situations where they EARNED their money, not acquired it through privilege and the skim (puts quite a dent in most African candidates).

And how will you prove who inherited money vs who earned it.  You don't really even know if your friend family earned that money, alot of the immigrants who come here got their money doing something seedy and then come to Canada or another nation to launder the money. 

The liberals are in control, they will set the immigration policy, there is nothing you can do, Harper lost.

 

Why would any immigrant who was independently wealthy and did not obtain their money in a seedy manner leave their country of birth, where they are likely accustomed to, have plenty of connections, face few or no barriers to basically live as 2nd class citizens in Canada?  Think about it.

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1 hour ago, Bonam said:

Sorry, wrong. Wages go up all the time in high demand fields. There's no reason that a computer programmer is inherently worth $120k/year while an insurance agent is worth $50k/year, it's just that one is in greater demand than the other. No one is forcing companies to pay their developers 100-200k, and yet they do, because they need the talent and that's what it costs to get it. $18/hour in Toronto is still meager crap, yes, you can live on it if you're frugal (and I have lived on wages like that) but why would I live in an expensive city to work an $18/hour job? You want a worker, keep raising those wages. 

In that area I think it is obvious I was speaking of low end jobs. Not low demand, low end.  Restaurants will never pay a worker $100,000 a year to flip burgers, they'd rather shut it down than do that.  The market doesn't work off of strict supply and demand like that, there are other factors causing people to make illogical decisions.

Most restaurants would rather close the restaurant in the city of Toronto than to pay a line cook or a server $20 an hour.  It is just an issue of greed.

 

1 hour ago, Bonam said:

Fine, then let them close down. Other businesses with better business models will take their place, and it will be better for the workers and the communities that they live in.

Except what happens when the businesses have largely been consolidated by a few major players who are behaving in a greedy way and irrational way?  Many of them are closing down, this is why the landlord are selling out for condos, the restaurants would rather not pay more money than to make money and payout more.

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1 hour ago, Bonam said:

There's only one word for an unemployed (for more than a few months) STEM grad: an idiot. It's super easy to get a job in STEM unless you are in the bottom 5-10% of ability in that field. And even the very lowliest entry level STEM jobs will pay $45k/year. Further, STEM jobs at many companies are protected from competition by foreign nationals due to the government's requirements for security clearances. 

See the above quotes, I showed where stem workers wth 10-20 years experience are not only fired and cannot find reasonable employment, but also are fired and replaced by foreigners.

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9 hours ago, H10 said:

Disney laid off 850 American workers, some of whom were given 90 days to train their replacements with the threat of losing their severance pay if they didn’t stay to the end.

This looks to be an old story.  All I can tell you is that you work in a market where you skills are sold.  Offshoring as a trend has been going on for almost 20 years and I was impacted by it then.

Calling attention to it so long after the impact has been felt, and with a protectionist morality has not worked, and will not work.  I am in favour of collective action, and government action to create a more level playing field but this example isn't practical at all.

 

9 hours ago, H10 said:

 After all, even if you intend to offshore, it is more logical to bring in your Indian worker//trainers to California to see how everything is done in America and try to replicate that setup in India.

That's not taking jobs then, it's bringing in offshore people for training then sending them back.

 

9 hours ago, H10 said:

Some of those smart Indians getting paid  to work in an offshore firm will work 18 hours a day because they know how rare it is to get the opportunity.

Have you ever worked with Indian companies ?  You strike me as an old-school developer who hasn't been impacted by these changes yet.  I'm shaking my head here, as this is all old, old news.  The world has, in fact, adapted to the new way and is moving on.

 

9 hours ago, H10 said:

shortage requiring millions of skilled immigrants when we have alot of skilled people struggling to find work here in Canada.

...if you're a skilled IT person then you can find work.

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H10 your comments are well thought out and you take a effort to explain them. Appreciated. I tend to agree with Michael H's last comments but said respectfully you still make some valid points. I just think  the IT sector is not the major problem area for immigration policy. Skilled IT people are in demand and borders won't stop them. The IT sector if we call it that I s very specialized and of course takes extended years of education and that education quickly expires requiring constant upgrading so immigration policy must be hand in hand with cohesive education policy and job sector requirements based on geographic regional needs.

The problem is most provinces; education ministries and college ministries do not run cohesively with federal policy and often work in opposition to one another or as is the case today, immigration policy places unrealistic expectations on the education and college systems to absorb and retrain new immigrants.

What we have done is set up a cottage industry of private colleges and community colleges gorging themselves on new Canadians and who have lowered their standards of admission and marking to the point of rendering colleges and high schools and now many universities a joke in terms of what it takes to graduate.

I teach in universities and colleges and I would estimate and I am not exaggerating in the colleges the majority of students do not bring in a pen and paper or a text book. They have no idea how to read or write at grade 11 level and depend on the cell phone. They don't use lap tops thinking the cell phone is good enough to send things out on or read things from. The cell phone has shrunk their brains and given them a false sense of being able to pass through training with only a cell phone.

The average college student who is NEW Canadian is no different butt hey also have a more pressing need for English at a grade 6 level which they do not have.Very few students I see in colleges or under-grad have good skills.

I exempt from the above those students going into specific vocations like plumbnig, carpentry, mechanical type jobs, hands on jobs-those kinds of students are very directed and motivates.

Also exempt from that generalization are returning older students getting industry designations or say nurses, specific health care provider students. They too are focused.

Now the ones that do, do well. They accelerate and do what they have to do to get into graduate schools or specific vocations but they are now the minority of students. The majority are in a sort of unemployed bubble using school to cushion the unemployment with student loans. New Canadians enroll in colleges so they can get a work permit enabling them 20 hours of work a week but the reality is they work 40 to as much as 60 hours a week and make token appearances at school for exams. Its so bad Immigration Canada is threatening to revoke work permits to students not getting a 1.98 average. New Canadian students are doing what they have to do to get in this country and one way to get in quickly is to enroll in college. They pay cash for their school. Their parents often  sacrifice everything depending on these kids to bring their parents in down the road. That's a lot of stress and pressure. Some are absolute idiots who waste the money and end up marginal, criminals, drunks, burdens on society, others bust their butts.

However in that bell curve he majority are a large lump of vulnerable, unskilled individuals  very disconnected from soft skills as the cell and computer have  made soft skills necessary for adjustment and assimilation non existent. In fact the cell phones reinforce their ability not to have to speak English and stay disconnected from the environment around them using the cell phone to navigate while they stay within the ghetto bubble the cell phone direction enables them..

Their critical analysis skills are just not there and this is because that part of the brain which develops at 4,5 by playing games or engaging in activities like sports, music, gardening, art, building things, hand writing, sculpturing, reading books, is just not there. Those exercises once developed a mind's ability to see the grey in between black and white. Now we have essentially people used to taking orders. They are probably better at reading instruction manuals for sure-however not with innovation which is an essential element of an entrepreneur who generates the economic sectors with cutting edge innovations and approaches.

Y'all ask me we are training the majority of people to be salivating sheep or lemurs or marmots and enabling a smaller elite to run and rule us. Whether that is just an inevitable human nature thing or being conditioned with social engineering I think our technology is lphysically changing the structure of brain development to make followers of orders, people who don't question and challenge and see themselves as overwhelmed by a larger matrix and so have lowered their expectations of success to focusing on obtaining  immediate needs.Now mind you I am influenced by what I see in hundreds of students which is subjective, and certain studies I read, I admit.

What I would like to see however  are more concise interactioan between provincial education and training policies, federal immigration policies, and acknowledgement from the federal government that there is direct cause and effect from their immigration policies and the increase in welfare dependency, mental illness, physical illnesses, crime, domestic violence when immigrants chosen to come do not have proper adjusting skills and a willingness to take responsibility for such issues dumped on municipalities.

I do  not think the current government cares. I do not think they care that the hundreds of thousands of people they tell to come to Canada are in fact being set up for jobs no Canadians want and with even those jobs there will be far more of new Canadians desperate for them than jobs and that is deliberately planned.

I believe this government is exploiting the poor, the needym with a false message of prosperity to attract them to Canada and have them serve as a captive bottom class for unskilled jobs since the average Canadian has high expectations and won't take such jobs.

You know we can talk all we want about $18 minimum wage but the bottom line is small businesses will simply fire workers if they have to pay that wage as they have what is called a profit margin. That profit margin is based on rational analysis not irrational analysis. Its based on a very simple principle, if there is no profit margin, the company dies and there is only so much elasticity in what can be paid in wages. Small business does not have unlimited elasticity to simply increase wages. Often they are on a very precarious footing as it is with one step from bankruptcy.

Look we have an entire work place now predicated on temporary jobs. The vast majority of people now do not get benefits of any kind other than Employment Standards as set out in their provinicial legislation. There is ZERO security. If you are lucky you are in a union. Professionals who people say have it easy have soaring income tax rates, malpractice and professional license rates and regulations that stifle their creativity and growth and their work hours are forever increasing due to the new practice regulations they all face.

Academics today are no longer protected by unions with seniority and their jobs are predicated on students writing surveys that say they like or hate them which is insane since students today actually threaten teachers who do not give them certain marks and the administrators in colleges change the marks or order the teachers to change the marks or not get another job somewhere else.

We also have people still hiring based on subjective inside preference. I see blatant racist and elitist hiring practice by ethnic groups hiring only their own ethnicity and turning work sectors into non English speaking ghettoes.

Multi-culturalism and this notion you can just indiscriminately place 300 thou or so not speaking English people in Canada with no skills every year and presto they will learn language skills and get a job is insane.

The no. of unadjusted, unassimilating new Canadians adds to the list from the years before. It doesn't disappear it log jams.

Our Prime Minister lives in a fantasy land where the only contact he has with fudge looking people is with photo ops for seconds , or because he hires a few as Ministers. He's oblivious to them, their needs and the damage he is doing them patronizing them as if they will automatically when they ILLEGALLY enter Canada, presto turn Canadian.

Trudeau sends a message of instant utopia not years of struggle.

Twenty let alone thirty years ago, new Canadians expected no help from the government and three generations of struggle to climb. Now immediately upon crossing illegally expect and get free room, board, shelter, training and medical and dental benefits far better than Canadians born here.

Yet this government seems oblivious to its message by allowing a flood of illegal migration.

Until that flow of illegal migrants is stopped and illegals deported, legitimate immigration and refugee policy can not exist and be practiced.

The quota amounts Trudeau announced are a travesty, an utter joke. They mean nothing. T hey don't include the number of illegals now flooding this country. This government is supressing the true volume of illegal migration and how it is directly conflicting and choking off legitimate immigrants with needed skills or genuine refugees.

 

Edited by Rue
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On 11/4/2017 at 2:00 AM, August1991 said:

Iceland has existed for centuries - its birth rate has varied;  There is no reason that Canada should allow more foreigners into our society simply because for the past few years, our women/men have had fewer children. 

It hasn't been the last few years.  It's a worsening long-term trend that won't reverse any time soon, nor likely ever.

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On 11/4/2017 at 11:42 AM, Argus said:

Only if they did it all at once. It is evident they are trying to ramp it up year by year, so that, like a frog in hot water we don't quite realize how hot the water is getting...

Yes you're absolutely right.  Mission creep.

Edited by Moonlight Graham
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On 11/4/2017 at 11:43 AM, Argus said:

That's not true. The government could encourage people to have more kids through a variety of measures, from advertising to economic support for families.

True.  But children don't have any economic value in a country with a capitalist economy.  Children are a net drain on the capitalist economy if immigration of educated working adults is an option.  Children don't work and therefore produce no GDP or tax revenue.  Meanwhile, they are a huge cost as they take parents out of the workplace, governments must spend to educate them for decades before they enter the workforce full-time, provide them daycare & healthcare etc.  Compare this to immigrating an economic migrant of working age who is usually immediately ready to enter the workforce, produce goods & services, generate GDP, generate income for themselves to spend in the economy to further increase GDP & tax revenues etc.

This is the sad state of our society.  It's disgusting.

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2 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

 Compare this to immigrating an economic migrant of working age who is usually immediately ready to enter the workforce, produce goods & services, generate GDP, generate income for themselves to spend in the economy to further increase GDP & tax revenues etc.

The average economic immigrant comes with ~3 dependents. They don't come by themselves. 

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15 hours ago, H10 said:

In that area I think it is obvious I was speaking of low end jobs. Not low demand, low end.  Restaurants will never pay a worker $100,000 a year to flip burgers, they'd rather shut it down than do that.  The market doesn't work off of strict supply and demand like that, there are other factors causing people to make illogical decisions.

Most restaurants would rather close the restaurant in the city of Toronto than to pay a line cook or a server $20 an hour.  It is just an issue of greed.

 

Except what happens when the businesses have largely been consolidated by a few major players who are behaving in a greedy way and irrational way?  Many of them are closing down, this is why the landlord are selling out for condos, the restaurants would rather not pay more money than to make money and payout more.

Of course if they can sell their property to a condo developer and make more that way than x years of profit from a businesses then they should do it. Why wouldn't they? There are restaurants that pay their chefs ~$100k or even more. Not fast food of course, but high end restaurants with high prices and high wages certainly exist. 

Again, if lots of food service businesses shut down "irrationally" because they can't stand the thought of paying their employees $20 an hour, new businesses will spring up to replace them, because people still want to go out to restaurants. 

And if food service jobs become more expensive for a long enough stretch, more and more of the various functions (food preparation, table service and ordering, etc) will be automated. Automation is a continuing trend in many industries and I've already seen restaurants with tables that have built in tablets that take your order and allow you to pay at the end. 

15 hours ago, H10 said:

See the above quotes, I showed where stem workers wth 10-20 years experience are not only fired and cannot find reasonable employment, but also are fired and replaced by foreigners.

Years of experience does not equal skill/talent/employability. Yes, you can find a poor performer in any field even with many years of experience. In STEM fields in particular, many people have poor social skills and therefore do poorly in interviews. Jobs in STEM are easy to find except for the bottom 5-10% of ability/interviewability. 

Edited by Bonam
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15 hours ago, H10 said:

Why would any immigrant who was independently wealthy and did not obtain their money in a seedy manner leave their country of birth, where they are likely accustomed to, have plenty of connections, face few or no barriers to basically live as 2nd class citizens in Canada?  Think about it.

Because even wealthy people in many developing countries face higher risks to their personal safety from day to day than people in Canada. Developing countries often have higher rates of violent and property crime, increased air and water pollution, higher prevalence of infectious diseases, etc. They may also face religious or ethnic persecution, or may want to leave a country before their children are conscripted for mandatory service in its armed forces. Also, there are no "2nd class citizens" in Canada. 

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On 11/4/2017 at 9:59 AM, Argus said:

That is why we should be taking only the most skilled and capable of immigrants able to earn decent salaries.

Not satisfied with raping and pillaging the wealth from the poor nations of the world, kind, generous folk want to steal the best and the brightest from developing countries. 

Edited by hot enough
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52 minutes ago, hot enough said:

But they don't come with delusions of Manifest Destiny, the divine right to murder others and steal their wealth. 

Some of them most certainly do. 

I don't dislike immigrants, as i have many friends who are such, including Muslims, and these friends of mine are wonderful people.  I don't dislike white "old stock" Canadians .  There's vultures and sociopaths and criminals and idiots amongst all races, cultures, ethnicities.  They all need to be stopped.  Everyone needs to get that through their heads and stop generalizing entire demographic groups as "bad" or "evil".

Generalizing entire groups as such is what causes racism, sexism etc.  It's amazing how easily it is to hate other groups of people, and equally amazing how we keep doing it & fail to learn from past mistakes & mindsets.

Edited by Moonlight Graham
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