NAFTA negotiations.

[bush_cheney2004]

9 minutes ago, August1991 said:

When I put mushrooms in my omelette, I want to know that the mushrooms are safe, free of OGM, normal DNA, free range, biological - organic. I trust produce from Canada; you Americans - in particular from New Jersey - are a dishonest lot.    

 

 

No, we just don't care.

Still, it was a Canadian pet food manufacturer that killed and sickened millions of pets in North America (Menu Foods - 2007).

[Zeitgeist]

Yeah I hope we don’t do a deal with these cheats.  Keep crap American dairy and produce out of Canada and protect our resources.  I think Canada should counter in negotiations with a 20 year sunset clause, expansion of supply management to all agriculture, a stronger dispute resolution process, Canada first priority for our resources, additional cultural protections, you get the idea.  Throw gender equality requirements in there to really piss off the neocons. Make this so unpalatable that the US doesn’t sign on.  Let Trump proceed with his irresponsible tariffs, so that we can do counter tariffs and redirect trade away from the US.  Screw ‘em. 

[Wilber]

12 hours ago, August1991 said:

Wilber,

There are about 12,000 dairy farms in Canada - half in Quebec. Milk production is concentrated among a few farms.

These are not "mom & pop" businesses.

=======

But I have a few different questions: why don't we have supply management for onions?  Cauliflower? Beef? Brussels sprouts? Why not alfalfa? Barley? 

Why do we have supply management specifically for milk? Why milk? (True, we also have supply management for eggs and chicken.... )

If "supply management" is so good, maybe we should extend the concept to onions, beef, canola - heck, why not crude oil? Gasoline?

Maybe the federal government should even "supply manage" the production of beer - and take this critical question away from provincial governments. 

August,

When I look down on the Fraser Valley from my kitchen window, I can see over a dozen family owned dairy farms. Not one mega farm. 

I didn't pull that 85 number out of my ass.

Canadian Dairy Farms

Quebec Dairy Farms

People go on about the rich dairy farmer and his $160,000 income. If you had well north of a 10 million capital investment in a private business with another million or so annual  operating cost (almost all of which is spent locally), a 365 operation where you might get one day a week off and maybe get away for a week occasionally if you have reliable help, but you still can't be without your phone, just in case. Dairy farmers don't go south for a month every winter. Cows are very expensive and have to be well taken care of and the financial implications if they aren't are serious. Unhealthy animals are a liability not an asset.  They don't get days off, take vacations and have to be milked every day. If the milk from just one cow that is being treated with antibiotics gets into the system by accident or negligence, the farmer takes a big financial hit.

Bearing all that in mind, you might not think $160K is an unreasonable return for your investment, risk and labour. Hell, 10 million invested at 5% will get you more than three times that much.

It's disappointing how many people go into these discussions full of other peoples Kool Aid without doing even basic fact checking of their own.

When it comes to supply management or subsidies you have to decide whether an industry is a net benefit to your society and economy or not but it is interesting that many of the same people who are bemoaning the movement of manufacturing jobs out of the country are falling all over themselves wanting to do the same to agriculture.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Wilber

[bush_cheney2004]

It's all coming out now....how Canada first tried to screw Mexico on NAFTA...but Mexico was smarter and turned the tables on the Sunshine Band:

 

Quote

Mexico, in effect, did to Canada what Canada had done to Mexico.

“Canada swung for the fences in May with a skinny NAFTA deal. I think Mexico remembered that,” said Daniel Ujczo, an Ohio-based trade lawyer representing auto and steel companies that trade under NAFTA. “Any country in Canada’s position would have tried that, but it came with risks, and one of the risks manifested itself [last] week.”

Two factors in Canada’s May gambit particularly aggravated some on the Mexican team. For one, said one Mexican industry source, the three sides had already set up a meeting to negotiate the most contentious auto proposal: mandating that 40 to 45 per cent of the content in all North American-made vehicles come from factories paying at least US$16 an hour. The idea of the measure was to push auto jobs away from Mexico, where workers earn close to US$4 an hour.

 

But Canada cancelled the meeting at the last minute, the source said, and instead proposed that the auto rules be written into NAFTA with no further negotiation.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-why-mexico-stabbed-canada-in-the-back-in-nafta-negotiations/

 

 

[Zeitgeist]

2 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

It's all coming out now....how Canada first tried to screw Mexico on NAFTA...but Mexico was smarter and turned the tables on the Sunshine Band:

 

 

 

Nevertheless, both the US and Mexico stabbed us in the back and we won’t forget the treachery. 

[OftenWrong]

11 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Yeah I hope we don’t do a deal with these cheats.  Keep crap American dairy and produce out of Canada and protect our resources.  I think Canada should counter in negotiations with a 20 year sunset clause, expansion of supply management to all agriculture, a stronger dispute resolution process, Canada first priority for our resources, additional cultural protections, you get the idea.  Throw gender equality requirements in there to really piss off the neocons. Make this so unpalatable that the US doesn’t sign on.  Let Trump proceed with his irresponsible tariffs, so that we can do counter tariffs and redirect trade away from the US.  Screw ‘em. 

cutting off nose to spite face

[OftenWrong]

4 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Nevertheless, both the US and Mexico stabbed us in the back and we won’t forget the treachery. 

The Canadian government was naive to believe it would turn out otherwise. As though Mexico would say no to a good deal with the USA, because they care so much about Canada.

[bush_cheney2004]

...especially after Canada tried to screw Mexico first.    Karma is a bitch !

[Zeitgeist]

18 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

...especially after Canada tried to screw Mexico first.    Karma is a bitch !

That’s a ridiculous exaggeration.  I actually feel for Mexico.  They buckled under pressure from Trump and accepted too many concessions.  They would have been better off bargaining alongside Canada because there’s strength in numbers and multilateralism.  They drank the Cool Aid for sure, falling for Trump’s divide and conquer strategy of pitting America’s rivals against each other (not that we were rivals before Trump).   It’s a sad display of obsequiousness, like a poor servant fawning over a rich employer as he exploits them.  Very feudal and right up Trump’s ally.  

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

That’s a ridiculous exaggeration.  I actually feel for Mexico.  They buckled under pressure from Trump and accepted too many concessions.  They would have been better off bargaining alongside Canada because there’s strength in numbers and multilateralism. 

 

No, it is exactly what happened, now documented in Canadian news media.   More will be forthcoming as the incompetence of the Sunshine Band on NAFTA is revealed.

Canada is only 8% of North America's population and is very dependent on the U.S. export market (75%), just like the United Mexican States (79%)....the number that really matters.

Canada and Mexico have an order of magnitude less trade with each other than with the United States.    Predictably, Mexico chose its own national interests over partnering with a Canadian dead end.

[Zeitgeist]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

No, it is exactly what happened, now documented in Canadian news media.   More will be forthcoming as the incompetence of the Sunshine Band on NAFTA is revealed.

Canada is only 8% of North America's population and is very dependent on the U.S. export market (75%), just like the United Mexican States (79%)....the number that really matters.

Canada and Mexico have an order of magnitude less trade with each other than with the United States.    Predictably, Mexico chose its own national interests over partnering with a Canadian dead end.

You know as well as I do that the US is seeking to take unfair advantage of trading partners by using its power to make economic threats and instill fear in the smaller power. It must not be tolerated by the international community.  To allow such behaviour, even by remaining silent, is nothing short of appeasement, and we all know how that worked out for Britain under Chamberlain.  The answer to might is right pressure tactics must always be “Fuck off!”

[bush_cheney2004]

4 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

You know as well as I do that the US is seeking to take unfair advantage of trading partners by using its power to make economic threats and instill fear in the smaller power. It must not be tolerated by the international community.  To allow such behaviour, even by remaining silent, is nothing short of appeasement, and we all know how that worked out for Britain under Chamberlain.  The answer to might is right pressure tactics must always be “Fuck off!”

 

Tantrum noted, but the answer has been and will be more trade dependence on the USA.  

The "international community" has seen how things don't get done in Trudeau's Canada.

[Zeitgeist]

19 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Tantrum noted, but the answer has been and will be more trade dependence on the USA.  

The "international community" has seen how things don't get done in Trudeau's Canada.

I strongly disagree.  Trudeau has been cool throughout the trade proceedings. He has said nothing unreasonable or rude.  Trump is consistently rude and unreasonable and everyone around him is constantly doing damage control.  Why is it okay for him and not others?  It isn’t. Having said that, I’m not convinced that Trump only represents himself in his misguided rantings. He does have enough supporters that we need to be very wary of what this force can inflict.  I’m basically a centrist, if anything slightly fiscally and socially conservative by Canadian standards, but the US is toying with fascism.  I will say that I wasn’t a fan of Bush Jr., Nixon, Truman, and to some extent Reagan.  The US seems to have been at its best under Clinton and Obama.  That doesn’t make me a Democrat necessarily, because the two party system is, I think, far too limiting on political choice. 

[bush_cheney2004]

21 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I strongly disagree.  Trudeau has been cool throughout the trade proceedings. He has said nothing unreasonable or rude.  Trump is consistently rude and unreasonable and everyone around him is constantly doing damage control.  Why is it okay for him and not others?

 

Because Trump has never claimed to be otherwise, unlike Trudeau who plays the usual passive aggressive Canadian version of identity politics instead.

 

Quote

I’m basically a centrist, if anything slightly fiscally and socially conservative by Canadian standards, but the US is toying with fascism.  I will say that I wasn’t a fan of Bush Jr., Nixon, Truman, and to some extent Reagan.  The US seems to have been at its best under Clinton and Obama.  That doesn’t make me a Democrat necessarily, because the two party system is, I think, far too limiting on political choice. 

 

Regardless, your "fandom" or disdain for American political leadership reflects the reality that Trudeau and Canada find today....dependence and influence by American culture and power.   Most Americans don't know or care what brand of "fascism" exists in Canada (e.g. Crown corporations)....it just doesn't matter.    Clinton and Obama started more wars for the U.S. than Trump has to date.   Canada sold out for NAFTA...long before Trump became the latest U.S. president.

Canada has a domestic challenge and international reputation for not being able to get big things done....it has more trade barriers between provinces than with the U.S. or Mexico.   Pipelines don't get built....refineries don't get built....LNG terminals do not get built....ships do not get built.    Sometimes, Canada is its own worst enemy, and blaming Trump will not change that.

 

 

[DogOnPorch]

2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Because Trump has never claimed to be otherwise, unlike Trudeau who plays the usual passive aggressive Canadian version of identity politics instead.

 

 

Regardless, your "fandom" or disdain for American political leadership reflects the reality that Trudeau and Canada find today....dependence and influence by American culture and power.   Most Americans don't know or care what brand of "fascism" exists in Canada (e.g. Crown corporations)....it just doesn't matter.    Clinton and Obama started more wars for the U.S. than Trump has to date.   Canada sold out for NAFTA...long before Trump became the latest U.S. president.

Canada has a domestic challenge and international reputation for not being able to get big things done....it has more trade barriers between provinces than with the U.S. or Mexico.   Pipelines don't get built....refineries don't get built....LNG terminals do not get built....ships do not get built.    Sometimes, Canada is its own worst enemy, and blaming Trump will not change that.

 

 

 

Arrow...cough...cough.

[Zeitgeist]

16 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Because Trump has never claimed to be otherwise, unlike Trudeau who plays the usual passive aggressive Canadian version of identity politics instead.

 

 

Regardless, your "fandom" or disdain for American political leadership reflects the reality that Trudeau and Canada find today....dependence and influence by American culture and power.   Most Americans don't know or care what brand of "fascism" exists in Canada (e.g. Crown corporations)....it just doesn't matter.    Clinton and Obama started more wars for the U.S. than Trump has to date.   Canada sold out for NAFTA...long before Trump became the latest U.S. president.

Canada has a domestic challenge and international reputation for not being able to get big things done....it has more trade barriers between provinces than with the U.S. or Mexico.   Pipelines don't get built....refineries don't get built....LNG terminals do not get built....ships do not get built.    Sometimes, Canada is its own worst enemy, and blaming Trump will not change that.

 

 

And yet Canada is a better place to be right now than the U.S..  My opinion of course...

[bush_cheney2004]

8 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

And yet Canada is a better place to be right now than the U.S..  My opinion of course...

 

That's great....even if it takes a payday loan to buy supply management cheese or 40 litres of gas.    Canadians are watching the NFL....right now.

[Zeitgeist]

A little tidbit from the National Post:

Farmers and agricultural economists are worried that president Donald Trump'­s trade, immigration and biofuels policies will cost farms billions of dollars in lost income and force some out of business. Nati Harnik/AP

But the agriculture issue’s outsized profile in the negotiations belies a surprising fact: for most of the States’ farm sector, the North American Free Trade Agreement — and trade with Canada specifically — has been a resounding success.

With tariffs reduced to zero on the vast majority of agricultural products, U.S. farm exports to Canada have soared from about $2 billion a year to over $20 billion since the nations first signed a free-trade pact, American government data show. Even U.S. exports of dairy products to Canada — a legitimate sore point — have ballooned over ten-fold in that time.

In March the Trump administration itself admitted that “the main reason for strong increases in (farm) trade with Canada” was the countries’ 1987 free-trade agreement, and the NAFTA accord that replaced it.

“These trade agreements eliminated nearly all tariffs on U.S. exports to Canada, significantly improving export opportunities for U.S. producers,” said the American Department of Agriculture report.

Canada was the biggest export market for U.S. agriculture in 2017.

“For farmers, it’s just seen as a place where there has been a lot of good back-and-forth trade,” Dave Salmonsen of the American Farm Bureau Federation said about NAFTA. “They want it to keep going.”

Edited September 9, 2018 by Zeitgeist

[paxamericana]

On 9/8/2018 at 9:13 AM, Zeitgeist said:

Yeah I hope we don’t do a deal with these cheats.  Keep crap American dairy and produce out of Canada and protect our resources.  I think Canada should counter in negotiations with a 20 year sunset clause, expansion of supply management to all agriculture, a stronger dispute resolution process, Canada first priority for our resources, additional cultural protections, you get the idea.  Throw gender equality requirements in there to really piss off the neocons. Make this so unpalatable that the US doesn’t sign on.  Let Trump proceed with his irresponsible tariffs, so that we can do counter tariffs and redirect trade away from the US.  Screw ‘em. 

you're making me agreeee...keep pushing it and you're going to "SUFFER CONSEQUENCES THE LIKES OF WHICH FEW THROUGHOUT HISTORY HAVE EVER SUFFERED BEFORE."

Why not just petition for state hood; and not deal with this crap. You can keep all your pseudo groups under state jurisdiction. The feds can't do anything about. in fact i would argue the benefits outweigh any potential downside. 

Edited September 10, 2018 by paxamericana

[OftenWrong]

Gonna be  long, cold, hungry winter without that US produce.

[Zeitgeist]

2 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Gonna be  long, cold, hungry winter without that US produce.

I quite enjoy South American produce.  Cheaper too.

[paxamericana]

17 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I quite enjoy South American produce.  Cheaper too.

As if the canadian diet is any different from americans... still going to need the same stuff we make here that are well priced and fda approved. If you eat steak, are you going to eat rare beef from argentina? 

Edited September 10, 2018 by paxamericana

[Zeitgeist]

7 hours ago, paxamericana said:

you're making me agreeee...keep pushing it and you're going to "SUFFER CONSEQUENCES THE LIKES OF WHICH FEW THROUGHOUT HISTORY HAVE EVER SUFFERED BEFORE."

Why not just petition for state hood; and not deal with this crap. You can keep all your pseudo groups under state jurisdiction. The feds can't do anything about. in fact i would argue the benefits outweigh any potential downside. 

This is why I think that we should do these negotiations right, take our time, and ask some bigger questions.  What would it look like to add free movement of labour and residence for Canadians and Americans anywhere in Canada and the US to a bigger agreement between our countries?  Residents from either country simply live as citizens within the local jurisdiction, paying taxes and obeying laws like regular Americans or Canadians.  Maintaining the two federal governments is much easier than trying to subsume a completely different system with very different challenges and cultural values under one federal government.  I'm sure you don't want to add liberal seats to the U.S. Congress.  Basically have an economic union between Canada and the U.S.  We can closely align our security.  I do think maintaining a border is important for reasons of screening entrants, keeping out unlawful weapons, illegal aliens, etc.  We can also maintain our own priorities in terms of food and drug protections, media, environment, etc.  I think Canada represents a huge future security blanket for Americans in terms of access to resources and safe places of residence with ample land, water, and thriving business communities.  In exchange, Canadians get the same access to America that Americans have.  Voting rights remain only for citizens of the home country.  Americans can only vote for U.S. jurisdictions.  Canadians can only vote for Canadian jurisdictions.  This is a bigger vision than either Trudeau or Trump have brought to the table, but it's probably where we should go eventually to iron out most of our concerns, so why not get there sooner?  I think that proposing bigger prizes for both countries makes it easier to give up certain trade protections.

[paxamericana]

51 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

In exchange, Canadians get the same access to America that Americans have.  Voting rights remain only for citizens of the home country.  Americans can only vote for U.S. jurisdictions.  Canadians can only vote for Canadian jurisdictions. 

I would argue against this part of the proposal. That's another form of apartheid and a time-bomb waiting to go off for future generations.  That's why if we were to have an economic union might as well get a political union in place. Even if Canada get more liberal senate seats, gerrymandering is still in effect. The current system is pretty robust, look at how Trump got elected after loosing the popular vote. 

Edited September 10, 2018 by paxamericana

[Zeitgeist]

4 minutes ago, paxamericana said:

I would argue against this part of the proposal. That's another form of apartheid and a time-bomb waiting to go off for future generations. 

I'm listening.  What do you propose as an alternative?  Another option is that voting is based on residency.  For example, after two years of residency, whether Canadian or American, you receive voting rights within the jurisdiction where you are living.  There are different ways to manage these things.  I'm not saying it would be easy to iron everything out, and I'm sure some policy would change over time based on experience, but I think these items can be resolved.  It would be an exciting opportunity for both countries.