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NAFTA negotiations.


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18 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

After carefully listening and analyzing the various statement about who controls the fate of NAFTA (the President or Congress) I have decided nobody has a clue. I've heard so many conflicting scenarios from experts and the delightful Bush-Cheney, I am going to wait and see. If the US decides it is in their best interest to return to pre-FTA rules, fine. We will adapt. In the short term, I may need to buy a car and they may be going cheap if our friends don't want them. I do not foresee any long term damage to US- Canada relations. Without NAFTA, Ms. Barlow may finally not have much to say. Every cloud...

Free-market will adjust itself to the Canadian pesos. Fact of the matter is this, Canada needs the US. 

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2 hours ago, paxamericana said:

OR you could just agree to the terms as laid out by Trump and save your self the hassle. 

There was an interview with one of the former (US) trade negotiators under Bush on TV the other day. He said that nations normally deal with each other under the veneer of equality. That is, even though one is much more powerful than the other, there's a pretense of equality as they discuss issues and negotiate resolutions. Just because one country is much larger or more powerful it doesn't tend to bully the other mercilessly. This tends to hold true even for dictatorships, usually. But Trump doesn't believe in any of that because he has no idea how international relations work nor cares. He just sees the US is the big and powerful one and has no hesitation in bullying others, sneering at them, insulting them, and forcing them to give way to him. The problem with this sort of attitude is that even if you get your way in something it produces a lasting bitterness and dislike, and whatever the opposite of loyalty is. A country which acts like this has no friends (much like Trump), and those who might otherwise be its allies move away and join other alliances against them. All around the world, the US is losing friends and influence while China and Russia are eagerly moving forward to take its place. China is doing its best to wrap up as much of Africa and its resources as it can and is heavily involved in South American for the same reason. Russia is increasing its influence in Europe by a combination of bribery and persuasion (want some cheap gas anyone?). 

But Trump never thinks past today. In business, he mercilessly bullied suppliers, withholding payment, demanding they accept smaller amounts than in the contract he signed. He screwed over his business partners and welched on loans. He didn't care. He sat there in smug arrogance thinking how tough he was being.  Except eventually he wasn't able to buy anything without paying cash up front. Other companies had lines of credit. Not his. Other companies could get financing. Not his. He had to go to third world and Russian oligarchs. At 71 he has no friends, is alone, mocked and ridiculed by everyone he ever sought the approval of. And that's what's in store for the US under Trump. You call up your African suppliers and they say "Sorry, those are going to China now." You rant and rage and threaten and they laugh at you and tell you to talk to China and then hang up on you. Your exports to Asia dwindle because China has the market locked up. You try to exercise influence and find you have none.

Bullying people seems to make him and a certain segment of Americans (like you and Bush Cheney) feel good about themselves. But there'll be a heavy price to pay if it continues. 

Edited by Argus
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20 hours ago, taxme said:

One only has to go watch the lineups of vehicles at all of the Washington state borders to see that even despite the low Canadian peso Canadians still love to go to America for their shopping and vacations. I go to Blaine, Wash. for my gas, along with hundreds more Canadians, every two weeks as I do save quite a lot of pesos. The federal and provincial governments are so stupid here where they would rather force Canadians to pay higher prices for their gas instead of lowering their high taxes on gas and keep Canadians at home. Even with the exchange the gas still comes out somewhat still cheaper. It is the governments that cause most Canadians to run to America to do their shopping as they just do not seem to get it that by lowering the price of taxes on everything will allow Canadians to be able to buy at home instead. Get rid of the GST would be a great start that is if they can learn to stop spending tax dollars so foolishly. They appear to be totally clueless has to how capitalism works. They all think socialism is the way too go. 

It is for sure that the winter weather has a lot to do with it. Lucky you. But there are plenty of other countries to go visit in the winter time like Mexico or the Caribbean. Canadians do have a choice here but the problem is that Canadians pretty much have to pay their money in American dollars. Shit, Canadians can never win. I can always thank our dear liberal/ socialist leaders for that. Chuckle-chuckle. 

Taxme is not Canadian.  Stop the fake posts.  Visits were up to the US in your data BEFORE Trump’s tariffs.  I’ve heard first hand from many Canadians who are now avoiding travel to the US.  I’m doing it too.  Unfair trade treatment will NOT be accepted.  If the US wants 50 percent US auto content for cars imported from Canada, then we want 50 percent Canadian content for cars imported into Canada from the US, and so it goes, messing up the entire supply chain.  Nice going...

As for our tax system, we use it to set CANADA’s priorities, which include having a strong and large middle class.  

Edited by Zeitgeist
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18 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Taxme is not Canadian.  Stop the fake posts. 

 

Personal attacks on other members are not permitted in this forum....please post accordingly.

 

Quote

Visits were up to the US in your data BEFORE Trump’s tariffs. 

 

...and Canadian visits are up even more AFTER Trump took office.    There are more Canadian visits to the USA than American visits to Canada...and the USA has 10X the population.

 

Quote

As for our tax system, we use it to set CANADA’s priorities, which include having a strong and large middle class.  

 

Indeed...Canadian priorities also mean tariffs, non-tariff barriers (e.g. Can Con, banking, telcom, etc.), dumping, transshipments, and IP theft.

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Trudeau still thinks that Canada's "culture" is special, so CanCon non-tariff trade barriers are worth dying for with NAFTA.

 

Quote

Canada won’t compromise on culture, dispute resolution in NAFTA talks, Trudeau says

 

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-trudeau-indicates-he-will-not-bend-on-key-nafta-demands-at-talks/

 

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53 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Trudeau still thinks that Canada's "culture" is special, so CanCon non-tariff trade barriers are worth dying for with NAFTA.

 

 

Trudeau is absolutely right.  If you think we’re trading our rich culture for McCulture, you can take off, eh!

Sounds like your farmers want our supply management.  If only America was run by Ottawa. Americans would be so much happier. 

Edited by Zeitgeist
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Just now, Zeitgeist said:

Trudeau is absolutely right.  If you think we’re trading our rich culture for McCulture, you can take off, eh!

 

Too late for that....Canada's "rich" culture and identity is often defined as "not American" anyway.

Trump should crush this sentimental Canadian notion once and for all in trade negotiations....who else cares ?

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6 hours ago, Argus said:

 

Bullying people seems to make him and a certain segment of Americans (like you and Bush Cheney) feel good about themselves. But there'll be a heavy price to pay if it continues. 

Oh please! Save me the ethics lesson in a business transaction. Money goes to the best deal regardless of sentiment. China is currying up favor in a bid to access more markets not  "friendship". Russia's future depends on its European neighbors and vice versa. They're always seeking closer ties despite US objection.  Canada is just the same. They're only as loyal as their wallet can allow. Let America pay for global security, let america give us unfettered access to world's best market, raise Europe and china out of poverty, lets keep taking advantage of America's good will. America is done giving, its time the rest of the world pitch in. Trump woke America up to this none-sense previous leaders avoided. 

Edited by paxamericana
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Donald Trump has turned the tables on Canada, which cultivated anti-Americanism as a Canadian value for generations.....and Canada doesn't like it.   Americans mostly ignore Canada with indifference no matter how much they express disdain for America, but apparently Canada cannot do the same.

 

Quote

In his America-First campaign, Mr. Trump is remarkably casting Canada among the predator nations taking advantage of his so-called hard-done-by country. As Kim Campbell, our former nano-second Prime Minister, said the other day, we’ve usually been the ones complaining of neglect by the United States. It’s been a staple of our history. Anti-Americanism constituted a lengthy chapter.

 

Now we have a president who has turned the tables. Canadians are the villains. We’re so dastardly on trade that he’ll have to drive us into submission....

What has driven Trump to be so anti-Canada?

 

Edited by bush_cheney2004
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40 minutes ago, paxamericana said:

Oh please! Save me the ethics lesson in a business transaction. Money goes to the best deal regardless of sentiment. China is currying up favor in a bid to access more markets not  "friendship". Russia's future depends on its European neighbors and vice versa. They're always seeking closer ties despite US objection.  Canada is just the same. They're only as loyal as their wallet can allow. Let America pay for global security, let america give us unfettered access to world's best market, raise Europe and china out of poverty, lets keep taking advantage of America's good will. America is done giving, its time the rest of the world pitch in. Trump woke America up to this none-sense previous leaders avoided. 

Trump is a retarded idiot according to those around him. He knows nothing whatever about trade, economics or international relations, witness his own damned economic advisor having to snatch papers off his desk to keep him from ending a trade deal with South Korea,  justifying his actions by saying "Got to protect the country".

American has NEVER given unfettered access. It has never been among the world's free traders, not even on the top ten list. And if you think how you treat people doesn't come back to haunt you then, like Trump, you must have no friends and wonder why.

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11 hours ago, paxamericana said:

OR you could just agree to the terms as laid out by Trump and save your self the hassle. Canada has no real trading partner other than the US. There are no major market for Canadian products other than the US. Think about it, if there were markets for Canadian goods elsewhere, those market would have already establish itself. Government intervention be damn. 

Trudeau and Freeland will only agree on a deal if the interests of Quebec are looked after. If the Quebec dairy farmers really had to compete Canadians would be getting a better bargain on buying their dairy products. These are the words of Maxine Bernier. Abolish supply management. It is one great big ripoff which is keeping dairy products in Canada as expensive as they are. If Canadians did not have to deal with so many taxes and so many rules and regulations prices in Canada would come down. It is our dear leaders who are breaking Canadians and stealing their money. But for some reason no one here seems to want to say anything about it or admit that this is so. They must be pretty much all liberal/socialists I guess.

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2 hours ago, Argus said:

Trump is a retarded idiot according to those around him. He knows nothing whatever about trade, economics or international relations, witness his own damned economic advisor having to snatch papers off his desk to keep him from ending a trade deal with South Korea,  justifying his actions by saying "Got to protect the country".

American has NEVER given unfettered access. It has never been among the world's free traders, not even on the top ten list. And if you think how you treat people doesn't come back to haunt you then, like Trump, you must have no friends and wonder why.

Trudeau is the idiot, not Trump. But what do you know about trade, economics and international relations anyway? Probably nothing. But do try to enlighten us all will you on your expertise on trade? Trump is not worrying about making friends. Trump is looking after American interests. At least Trump is trying to do something for his country. What is our dear leader doing for Canada? Are you jealous of Trump?  What Trudeau is doing to Canada will come back one day and haunt us. You should show more concern about Canada for a change and less about what Trump does. You act like he is your president. :wacko:

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37 minutes ago, taxme said:

Trudeau is the idiot, not Trump. But what do you know about trade, economics and international relations anyway? Probably nothing. But do try to enlighten us all will you on your expertise on trade? Trump is not worrying about making friends. Trump is looking after American interests. At least Trump is trying to do something for his country. What is our dear leader doing for Canada? Are you jealous of Trump?  What Trudeau is doing to Canada will come back one day and haunt us. You should show more concern about Canada for a change and less about what Trump does. You act like he is your president. :wacko:

We have been forced to respond to Trump’s dangerous behaviour. Canada and the US have had a good trade relationship.  Trump’s invective against Canada is a straw man and a red herring.  There’s no substance to the criticism.  If anything our trade relationship was imbalanced in the US’s favour, but we always understood that US power and self-absorbtion made a certain amount of imbalance inevitable.  What we are seeing now is the worst kind of Mercantile imperialism. Trump’s now public trade policy is to divide partners against each other and use power to seek unfair advantage.  Canada cannot avert its eyes to the injustice.  We will appeal to Americans’ own democratic institutions, rule of law, and goodwill, as well as the WTO and international law.  Trump is poisoning international relations.  The Canadian government will protect its interests and walk away from unfair trade proposals. 

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OPINION

Canada still has a strong hand in NAFTA negotiations 

 
EDDIE GOLDENBERG
CONTRIBUTED TO THE GLOBE AND MAIL 
PUBLISHED 7 HOURS AGOUPDATED SEPTEMBER 4, 2018

Eddie Goldenberg is a senior partner at Bennett Jones, LLP and from 1993-2003 was senior policy adviser and then chief of staff to prime minister Jean Chrétien.

Many Canadian commentators argue the “deal” on NAFTA between Mexico and the United States has thrown Canada under the bus; that the “divide and conquer” strategy of the U.S. combined with threats by Donald Trump to impose huge tariffs on Canadian automobile exports or to abrogate NAFTA entirely has left little choice for Canada but to capitulate to unpalatable U.S. demands. This is wrong. By entering into a bilateral deal with Mexico, the United States has unwittingly strengthened the hand of the Canadian negotiators.

Despite Mr. Trump’s bluster, U.S. negotiators and their Mexican counterparts must realize that the U.S.-Mexico “deal” on its own is a total nonstarter in Congress without Canada. Mr. Trump can tweet and demand that Congress “not interfere with these negotiations.” Whether he likes it or not or whether he understands it or not, he does not have absolute power. On matters of trade, Congress has extensive authority. On the North American free-trade agreement, the President only has authority by law to put a trilateral deal, not a bilateral deal, to Congress with few procedural constraints. A bilateral deal with Mexico would be subject to all the procedural obstacles that would in practice make it a complete nonstarter for years to come.

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The President has another insurmountable problem. While he can threaten in a tweet to withdraw from NAFTA, doing so is far easier said than done. While NAFTA was negotiated at the executive level, it was implemented in the United States by a vote of the Senate and the House of Representatives. The best legal opinions are that it can only be revoked by a similar vote in the Congress, and not by the unilateral action of the President. The Canadian government has been extremely successful in its lobbying effort in the United States to convince American legislators of the benefits of NAFTA to the U.S. Therefore, a threat to withdraw from the trade agreement is once again a mere bluff by Mr. Trump because he will simply not get the required Congressional support to do so.

The President has resorted to another threat. If Canada doesn’t capitulate and sign a deal on U.S. terms, then he will impose a 25-per-cent tariff on exports of Canadian automobiles to the United States. This threat has caused some consternation in Canada because of the importance of the auto sector to our economy. However, the North American automobile industry is so integrated that many parts of each individual car come from all three countries. Imposing a huge tariff on cars coming from Canada might devastate the Canadian industry, but it would also devastate the U.S. automotive industry and would impose huge costs on American consumers. The resistance from U.S. business and consumer interests would be so great that it would likely make Mr. Trump’s tariff threats once again empty.

 

What does this all mean for Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland as she goes back to the negotiating table? She knows that it is in the political interest of Mr. Trump to be able to claim some victory somewhere in the world on trade before the midterm elections. He won’t have it in the near future with China and is unlikely to have one with Europe before November. He could have one with Canada and Mexico if he is prepared to compromise but not if he is completely intransigent. If the NAFTA negotiations fall apart, it will represent a political setback for the President and if they succeed, it gives him an important victory in the run up to the November elections.

Because the U.S. deal with Mexico is a nonstarter without Canada, and because Mr. Trump’s threats to abrogate NAFTA or to impose huge tariffs on the Canadian automotive sector are mere bluster by a bully, Ms. Freeland goes into the next round of negotiations with a very strong hand. She has not been backed into a corner. If anyone is in a corner, it is U.S. Trade Representative Robert Lighthizer, who now has no choice but to negotiate in good faith on issues of importance to Canada; otherwise the U.S.-Mexico deal falls apart and Mr. Trump’s claims of victory disintegrate.

Ms. Freeland need not feel rushed. She can and should take all the time necessary to negotiate what is in Canada’s interests and not succumb to artificial U.S. timetables. The Canadian pundits are wrong. Ms. Freeland and Canada enter the next round of negotiations in a strong bargaining position.

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2 hours ago, taxme said:

Trudeau is the idiot, not Trump.

Or maybe they're both idiots, each in his own way. The problem is that Trump has a far greater ability to wreak havoc than Trudeau. Trudeau can wreck Canada and few others will notice and if that's his objective he's certainly giving it a good go. Trump has the power to undermine the world's most important democracy and blow up much of the world.

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8 minutes ago, turningrite said:

Or maybe they're both idiots, each in his own way. The problem is that Trump has a far greater ability to wreak havoc than Trudeau. Trudeau can wreck Canada and few others will notice and if that's his objective he's certainly giving it a good go. Trump has the power to undermine the world's most important democracy and blow up much of the world.

 

Agreed...Trump matters far more than Trudeau.

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33 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:
OPINION

Canada still has a strong hand in NAFTA negotiations 

 
EDDIE GOLDENBERG
CONTRIBUTED TO THE GLOBE AND MAIL 
PUBLISHED 7 HOURS AGOUPDATED SEPTEMBER 4, 2018

Eddie Goldenberg is a senior partner at Bennett Jones, LLP and from 1993-2003 was senior policy adviser and then chief of staff to prime minister Jean Chrétien.

I'm a bit weary of reading analyses written by those associated with the Mulroney and Chretien regimes, which respectively forged Canada's involvement in the FTA and NAFTA deals. Of course, these people want to see their handiwork endure the test of time. What I don't see much of in these pieces, however, is introspection or objective criticism, both of which are well warranted at this time as our negotiators try to salvage some kind of new deal with a boot heal pressing on their collective neck. Perhaps decades ago they/we should have understood the problems associated with hitching our wagon to a country that throughout its history has been prone to isolationism and exceptionalism? Perhaps they/we should have understood the risk in reorienting the Canadian economy to a continental model based on chimeric notions of American attachment to the enterprise? Given the hundreds of thousands of ordinary Canadians who paid an enormous price for these trade deals, maybe the architects of these deals might explain how and why the sacrifice was worth it.

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59 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:
OPINION

Canada still has a strong hand in NAFTA negotiations

 

Indeed....this was Trudeau and Freeland's clever strategy all along....to pretend that an alliance would be formed with Mexico...to demand a "feminist agenda"...to personally attack Trump at his "bullying" level....now Canada's shrewd leadership has Trump and America right where they want them on NAFTA.

"Canadian values" will triumph over the orange American ogre, just like they did for NAFTA 1.0 !!!

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8 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Trudeau is absolutely right.  If you think we’re trading our rich culture for McCulture, you can take off, eh!

Sounds like your farmers want our supply management.  If only America was run by Ottawa. Americans would be so much happier. 

What do you mean by rich culture? 

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4 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

We have been forced to respond to Trump’s dangerous behaviour. Canada and the US have had a good trade relationship.  Trump’s invective against Canada is a straw man and a red herring.  There’s no substance to the criticism.  If anything our trade relationship was imbalanced in the US’s favour, but we always understood that US power and self-absorbtion made a certain amount of imbalance inevitable.  What we are seeing now is the worst kind of Mercantile imperialism. Trump’s now public trade policy is to divide partners against each other and use power to seek unfair advantage.  Canada cannot avert its eyes to the injustice.  We will appeal to Americans’ own democratic institutions, rule of law, and goodwill, as well as the WTO and international law.  Trump is poisoning international relations.  The Canadian government will protect its interests and walk away from unfair trade proposals. 

The difference between Trump and Trudeau is that Trump is putting America first whereas Trudeau since he was elected has been trying very hard to put Canada in last place. Trump wants to deal with a man and not a pro gay feminist. For Trudeau to walk away will be the biggest mistake he will have made since he became the prime mistake of Quebec, I mean Canada.  

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6 hours ago, taxme said:

The difference between Trump and Trudeau is that Trump is putting America first whereas Trudeau since he was elected has been trying very hard to put Canada in last place. Trump wants to deal with a man and not a pro gay feminist. For Trudeau to walk away will be the biggest mistake he will have made since he became the prime mistake of Quebec, I mean Canada.  

With comments like that it’s clear that America needs Canada like never before.  It’s getting very close to being too late to address serious, possibly extinction level climate change, but there are also shorter term domestic concerns such as gun violence and public safety.  You have to raise up your disenfranchised, set policy that expands your middle class, and push the society towards sustainable lifestyles.  This is beyond US Canada relations, though trade policy should be progressive for both countries.  I realize some want to move backwards, clingy to institutionalized racism/sexism and irresponsible growth that enhances the interests of the rich at the expense of the masses.  That’s not what the US, Canada or the world should be about.  

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If this all comes down to Article 19 then I guess bybye NAFTA. How can Canada sign on to a deal where there's no actual enforcement of the terms of the agreement? 

The deal would be as useless as the paper its written on. 

You would assume a new congress would admit that trying to negotiate like that is pure madness. 

Edited by Boges
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16 hours ago, Argus said:

And if you think how you treat people doesn't come back to haunt you then, like Trump, you must have no friends and wonder why.

Because America needed the rest of the world when it does something it wants? Last I checked, we did what ever we wanted, been doing that for 70 years. Don't see it changing anytime soon. Never needed Canada's or Europe's permission or anyone else who thinks they're important. Its actually the other way around. If Europe or Canada wanted to do something they often have to ask US. Don't forget who is the real shot caller of the world. 

Ps you caught me, I am a disgruntled middle aged neo-con white man who sits around waiting for a tinder update.

Edited by paxamericana
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3 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

 I realize some want to move backwards, clingy to institutionalized racism/sexism and irresponsible growth that enhances the interests of the rich at the expense of the masses.

Wut? We just want free trade man. If Canada want to push it's progressive agenda then become a hegemon and do so. Don't expect the world's most powerful nation on planet earth to bend over backward for a inconsequential trade deal. Might I remind you that we're taking on China and Europe as well. That's how insignificant the rest of the world is to us. Canada is just another minnow in America's pond.

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45 minutes ago, paxamericana said:

Wut? We just want free trade man. If Canada want to push it's progressive agenda then become a hegemon and do so. Don't expect the world's most powerful nation on planet earth to bend over backward for a inconsequential trade deal. Might I remind you that we're taking on China and Europe as well. That's how insignificant the rest of the world is to us. Canada is just another minnow in America's pond.

The important thing is that you're thinking about the rest of the world as well as America's long term interests, because they're very similar.  Suggestion to the Neo-Cons who support the notion that somehow the U.S. can act on self-interest at the expense of others: Consider how badly Truman f'd up America's place in the world and escalated the Cold War to a point where people lived in constant fear of being nuked.  This is the old Truman vs. Wallace dichotomy all over again.  Wallace sought world peace and for the world to enjoy similar prosperity to the U.S..  He built bridges and upheld human rights.  Truman stoked fear.  Truman's posture led to Soviet expansionism and the massive military spending that Eisenhower would extend and later regret.  Right now the U.S. is acting like post-Treaty of Versailles Germany, disgruntled and hard done by, even though its economy has done well.  The U.S. has within it the capacity to provide a high standard of living and upward mobility to the masses and to be a beacon of hope to the rest of the world.  Instead, it is acting penurious, fearful, and vindictive, for no good reason.  The long term costs for this approach may be much higher than many Americans realize.  I hope that Trump will essentially cease to be taken seriously by mainstream America and the vast majority of the voting public.  Some find his antics amusing or tough, but make no mistake, they are destructive.  We'll all be paying for the clean up, Americans more than anyone else.  Just hope it's not past the point of no return.   

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