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About those tax breaks for the 'rich'


Argus

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13 hours ago, cannuck said:

Two things, most glaring: anyone who goes into business or a business deal to avoid tax is an idiot.  Sorry, but it is exactly the wrong reason to be either in or exposed to business.

Which brings us to the axiom I have developed over the years: we reward the least productive people the most.

Secondly:  I really don't consider $200 or $250  a year "rich" by any standard.  top1%, yes, but hardly rich.  Think about it this way:   ANYONE who owns a house in Hogtown or Hongcouver are shelling at at least a mil.  Tens of thousands of them have housing worth several mil - but modest holdings by the standards of much of the ROC.  Do you think you could afford the mortgage payments on a mil on a gross of only $17k/mo? If that is sallaried earnings, your net would be under $10k and $6k of that gone just for the mortgage.   My point is: there are a LOT of Canadians earning well up in the $100k-$200k range, or they could not live in the cities and homes in which they live.

Average declared income in Vancouver is not that high which is one part of the reason why it's so unaffordable for working Canadians.

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1 minute ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Average declared income in Vancouver is not that high which is one part of the reason why it's so unaffordable for working Canadians.

Always wondered about that.  I imagine a lot of people have owned their homes long enough for their cost to be based in some realistic time frame vs. income.  BUT, the houses and condos keep selling, and I can not imagine that they are all going to Chinese immigrants fleeing Beijing or Shanghai pollution with bulging pockets full of cash.

Some of my HS friends have retired, sold their Van homes and moved into Canada with a very nice nest egg and a nicer home in a sane place.

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 Morneau has to resign, today.  When you go after the poor while hiding the fact you own a villa in france and probably using it to save taxes, then it is time to step down. And married to one of the McCain girls , really?

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25 minutes ago, PIK said:

 Morneau has to resign, today.  When you go after the poor while hiding the fact you own a villa in france and probably using it to save taxes, then it is time to step down. And married to one of the McCain girls , really?

You think these tax proposals are designed to go after the poor?

Edited by SpankyMcFarland
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30 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

You think these tax proposals are designed to go after the poor?

I think they are designed to pretend to be going after the rich, though in reality the rich are people like Morneau, not doctors and farmers, and he's certainly not going after 'his people' or touching family trusts or other shelters for their money.

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1 hour ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

You think these tax proposals are designed to go after the poor?

Yes they are. A Lot of small business owners have everything they own in thier business, and if they lose it they lose everything. They are risk takers and the risks are high enough without the government making it worse. Spanky your government has spent waaaay to much money and are now looking to hit everyone to get it back. Hit everyone but them selves that is.

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Those who live on salaries paid by someone else and those who have inherited or married enough money not to know what a paycheque is have no idea of the level of risk and work involved in "small" business.   That also excludes the MDs who are nothing but contract employees of the state for the most part.

A small biz guy is LUCKY to net a hundred Gs after sticking his neck out for years and busting his arse daily.  With something like 95% failure rate, it is hardly the free ride that the feds are claiming are taking a ride on the back of taxpayers.  Now, GOVERNMENT employees, who have no risk, no function, no contribution but enjoy massive paycheques well up into the quarter million range (yes, MANY management and professional government jobs are right up there) and enjoy benefits the private sector could never afford are clearly NOT in the line of fire for the Libs.  Suggesting the highest risk working people in the land - the ones who create most of the wealth - are getting some undue benefit is disgusting in the extreme.

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Closing these loopholes will not take any significant money out of the pockets of people making less than $150,000 per year.  Under this amount it is not feasible even under the current rules to incorporate to avoid taxes because of the benefits of RRSPs and TFSAs.

I can't think of a reason why incorporated small businesses should use these loopholes to pay less taxes than salaried people that have the same net income.

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13 minutes ago, carepov said:

Closing these loopholes will not take any significant money out of the pockets of people making less than $150,000 per year.  Under this amount it is not feasible even under the current rules to incorporate to avoid taxes because of the benefits of RRSPs and TFSAs.

I can't think of a reason why incorporated small businesses should use these loopholes to pay less taxes than salaried people that have the same net income.

I can not imagine any reason they WOULD!!!   Business people are usually 100% invested in themselves.  To hand over their money to some asshole financial institution for a paultry couple percent return - just to avoid some kind of tax - would be suicide and illogical.   Also TFSAs are only tax free from the INTEREST earned.   RRSP contributions are nothing but tax deferrement, not tax reduction.   Income splitting is extremely important to small business as it REDUCES the amount of money earned from their work being given to an unaccountable government to squander away on idiotic things such as immigrtation vote buying.

and YES, income splitting from  a business earning $100k makes a significant difference in what is in the bank account.

Edited by cannuck
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1 hour ago, cannuck said:

I can not imagine any reason they WOULD!!!   Business people are usually 100% invested in themselves.  To hand over their money to some asshole financial institution for a paultry couple percent return - just to avoid some kind of tax - would be suicide and illogical.   Also TFSAs are only tax free from the INTEREST earned.   RRSP contributions are nothing but tax deferrement, not tax reduction.   Income splitting is extremely important to small business as it REDUCES the amount of money earned from their work being given to an unaccountable government to squander away on idiotic things such as immigrtation vote buying.

and YES, income splitting from  a business earning $100k makes a significant difference in what is in the bank account.

Non-business people are usually 100 % invested in themselves...

I agree with income splitting for all Canadian families, and yes it does save real money for the middle class.  Of couse any business can split income with family members that work in the business (incorporated or not). 

RRSPs do reduce taxes if you deffer to later years when you are going to be in a lower tax bracket.  The "problem" is that some people accumulate so much wealth that they make more money in retirement than what they did while working.....

 

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5 hours ago, Argus said:

I think they are designed to pretend to be going after the rich, though in reality the rich are people like Morneau, not doctors and farmers, and he's certainly not going after 'his people' or touching family trusts or other shelters for their money.

Morneau is indeed very rich. That does not mean that people who are worth a lot less than him are not rich as well. Doctors earn a very large income compared to most Canadians. That is a fact. There are rich farmers in this country as well. 

I'd like to see family trusts targeted but this proposal was a start at targeting some clear abuses of the system. The opposition to it avoided discussing the tricks doctors get up to as much as possible. 

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4 hours ago, PIK said:

They are backing down and even said they will honour a promise to drop the business tax down to 9%. But don't hold your breath.

It's very disappointing to see that. I know the medical associations ran a big campaign across Canada to organize opposition to these proposals and it seems to have borne fruit. 

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5 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

It's very disappointing to see that. I know the medical associations ran a big campaign across Canada to organize opposition to these proposals and it seems to have borne fruit. 

The medical associations should be castrated anyways. They are behind most of our healthcare woes.

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10 hours ago, cannuck said:

Those who live on salaries paid by someone else and those who have inherited or married enough money not to know what a paycheque is have no idea of the level of risk and work involved in "small" business.   That also excludes the MDs who are nothing but contract employees of the state for the most part.

A small biz guy is LUCKY to net a hundred Gs after sticking his neck out for years and busting his arse daily.  With something like 95% failure rate, it is hardly the free ride that the feds are claiming are taking a ride on the back of taxpayers. 

That scenario does not describe physician 'entrepreneurs' whose success is all but guaranteed if they turn up. 

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21 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Morneau is indeed very rich. That does not mean that people who are worth a lot less than him are not rich as well. Doctors earn a very large income compared to most Canadians. That is a fact. There are rich farmers in this country as well.

It is simply very bad optics to have these lifelong limousine liberals with their inherited wealth targeting those upper middle class Canadians who are working their asses off to try to claw their way into the lowest ranks of what you might call 'rich'.  It's especially so when they ignore the tax loopholes THEY are using to shield their income from the taxman.

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13 minutes ago, Argus said:

It is simply very bad optics to have these lifelong limousine liberals with their inherited wealth targeting those upper middle class Canadians who are working their asses off to try to claw their way into the lowest ranks of what you might call 'rich'.  It's especially so when they ignore the tax loopholes THEY are using to shield their income from the taxman.

 

I agree it looks terrible, reminiscent of Martin's 'Canada' Steamship Line in Barbados and the Bronfman family trust saga. Unfortunately, the oligarchs are always going to have armies of accountants and enablers trying to get them special deals. That's the way in every country. Don't Canada's rules on residency for tax purposes make it a little harder here than it is in Europe to pretend to live offshore? Nearly every mega-wealthy Brit or Irishman claims to reside abroad while living at home. Anyway, we should be as tough as we can on the oligarchs but fair rules should apply to the smaller fry too. 

    

Edited by SpankyMcFarland
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18 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

That scenario does not describe physician 'entrepreneurs' whose success is all but guaranteed if they turn up. 

They are a cartel of contractors with little accountability for performance and no competitive marketplace to control costs.  Nothing at all like a business.

In fairness to the government: I believe is was PSCs (Personal Service Companies) that was their target, but they instead drew the circle around actual business out of total ignorance.

Edited by cannuck
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On 2017-10-17 at 4:46 PM, Argus said:

It is simply very bad optics to have these lifelong limousine liberals with their inherited wealth targeting those upper middle class Canadians who are working their asses off to try to claw their way into the lowest ranks of what you might call 'rich'.  It's especially so when they ignore the tax loopholes THEY are using to shield their income from the taxman.

This thing about the middle class still gets me. Very, VERY upper 'middle' class Canadians, some of these guys. Perhaps penthouse middle class Canadians? You're talking upwards of two million a year for some ophthalmologists in Canada. Still middle class for you? Plus they do claim to be part of the owner entrepreneur class as well, not the wage slaves. 

Anyway, you are conflating two separate issues: Morneau's personal behaviour over his assets and his sensible proposals regarding the abuses of incorporation. We should be capable of seeing simultaneously the errors in the first situation and the merits of the second. If Morneau resigns and a suitably impoverished successor is found, I sincerely hope income sprinkling is still restricted as much as possible. Because it is wrong. 

 

 

Edited by SpankyMcFarland
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  • 2 weeks later...
On 2017-10-17 at 4:54 PM, SpankyMcFarland said:

 

I agree it looks terrible, reminiscent of Martin's 'Canada' Steamship Line in Barbados and the Bronfman family trust saga. Unfortunately, the oligarchs are always going to have armies of accountants and enablers trying to get them special deals. 

    

And speaking of which:

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/nov/05/justin-trudeau-adviser-stephen-bronfman-offshore-paradise-papers

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/paradise-papers-offshore-bronfman-lobbying-1.4384912

http://www.hiddenmysteries.org/conspiracy/reststory/bronfmanevade.html

 

 

 

Edited by SpankyMcFarland
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2 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Anyone think CRA will investigate this one thoroughly? With Trudeau's father being in the files, along with Chretien and Paul Martin Jr, and his bagman Bronfman? They will promise a thorough investigation and then assign someone 'reliable' to make sure nothing is found. Then this will be quietly swept under the rug.

If the Liberals really wanted to tax the rich he'd cut out these offshore tax havens. But he won't. He and his finance minister use them, after all, as to a lot of other rich Liberals.

Edited by Argus
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6 minutes ago, Argus said:

If the Liberals really wanted to tax the rich he'd cut out these offshore tax havens. But he won't. He and his finance minister use them, after all, as to a lot of other rich Liberals.

Canadian law does not extend to legislating other countries' tax laws. One would think that conservatives would be aware of these things. 

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14 hours ago, hot enough said:

Really, do you actually think conservative rich people care about you? 

I am a conservative rich person and I do. So what am I hearing about the tax shelters this morning .

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