The Battle of Charlottesville

[Argus]

This one is from Toronto earlier in the year. Milder because of much smaller numbers.

 

[Argus]

Same sort of thing in Seattle

 

[DogOnPorch]

ANTIFA ironically are the Brown Shirts and Reds rolled into one. I doubt they really care who they clash with as long as they view it as "the establishment" and other such Nazis* that need to be destroyed....

*   "Nazis" could be the Girl Guides or Brownies to this lot if they gave cookies to Trump.

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Altai said:

Your freedom ends beyond the line where it start to harm others.

When we consider it in a singular manner, yes people have right to say whatever they want, including insults. Again when we consider it in a singular manner, people have also right to live in peace without being disturbed by others.  If someones which someones does not like are able to walk on the street, this means there is nothing wrong with them. Any groups we create in our minds to separate others from ourselves, based on skin color, based on ethnic, based on belief, based on whatever we name it and we cant disturb them just because we dont like something about them. If you think there is a problem, you need to go to a court togetger proofs/evidences of your legimate disturbance. 



We have talked this before in another topic. I dont want to derail this topic. Below I put the link.
 

 

I don't think we have a right not to be disturbed.  How could there ever have been Disco, or Country and Western music? 

No-one was forced to listen to the WS in Virginia.  They had every right to express their views, regardless of how outraged people got.  I believe even the ACLU thought so? 

The first flying fist was the first crime.

[Hal 9000]

The key word here is "counter-protest".  

You see, the White Nationalists and far right groups have been protesting for years - way before Trump.  So, what makes this protest any different?  what made this protest violent?  The WN's got their permit and arranged the protest just like every other time.  The problem is clearly the"counter protest", if they had not bothered to inject themselves, had they not cornered the WN's, had they not followed them making targeted attacks, then no violence would've happened.  The WN's would've had their protest and no one outside Charlottesville would've even know it happened.  

The new problem is gonna be this; the media and many politicians have again let the far left protestors off the hook completely - based on nothing more than they don't like the message from the group they attacked.  We're not judging right and wrong based on actions, we're judging based on who's point of view the media and local politicians agree with. "We hate Nazi's, so it must have been their fault".   This is the way it was when Bernie people would show up at Trump rallies and start fights - the narrative was always "Violent Trump supporters".  This spells really bad news for the next rally or speech from someone on the right.  The media and politicians have given expressed permission for the left to act this way and it's gonna get way out of hand.  I don't think I've seen even one incident with people on the right showing up to cause trouble at a leftist rally.  

[bush_cheney2004]

40 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

 I believe even the ACLU thought so?

 

Indeed...as the ACLU has been there...done that:

 

Quote

In 1977, a group of neo-Nazis announced their intention to march through Skokie, Illinois, where one out of every six Jewish residents had survived the Holocaust or was directly related to a survivor. The Chicago suburb denied permission for the neo-Nazis' gathering, but the ACLU accepted the case and won, upholding neo-Nazis' right to free speech.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jun/29/aclu-right-represent-ku-klux-klan

 

[Chrissy1979]

Something tells me the people ignoring the Nazi violence and focusing on the antiracist violence would be silent if, say, an Islamist preaching Jihad were punched in the face by a protester. They're deliberately ignoring the aggressive attacks perpetrated by F'ing Nazis. That shows you where their allegiances are.

[Argus]

11 minutes ago, Hal 9000 said:

 The new problem is gonna be this; the media and many politicians have again let the far left protestors off the hook completely - based on nothing more than they don't like the message from the group they attacked.

Well, to be fair, the automotive homicide drew the bulk of the attention, and it was a Nazi who was the killer.  Still, most of the conversation is on the violence, not the murder, and they're only talking about the one side doing it. Notice how the media got enraged when Trump mentioned both sides. Now that he's finally singled out the White supremacists they're bitching that he didn't use the word terrorist.

[Argus]

1 minute ago, Chrissy1979 said:

Something tells me the people ignoring the Nazi violence and focusing on the antiracist violence would be silent if, say, an Islamist preaching Jihad were punched in the face by a protester. They're deliberately ignoring the aggressive attacks perpetrated by F'ing Nazis. That shows you where their allegiances are.

I didn't see aggressive attacks perpetrated by F'ing Nazis. I'm sure there were some, mind you, but none in the videos I saw. What I saw was a bunch of Nazi thugs marching along with their dumbass flags dressed up like cut rate huns and then a bunch of screaming socialists and Marxists, or whatever you want to call them, dressed up like cut rate huns and attacking them.

My allegiance is to neither group. My allegiance is to free speech and peaceful coexistence, to discussing differences openly without violence. I'd frankly like to see everyone on the street there, Left and Right, scooped up in big dump trucks and carried out to the farms to pick cotton for the rest of the summer.

[kimmy]

1 minute ago, Argus said:

Now that he's finally singled out the White supremacists they're bitching that he didn't use the word terrorist.

People like Richard Spencer and David Duke have been calling Trump a friend and ally since long before he was elected, and today is the first time he's actually disavowed them. 

 -k

[Hal 9000]

2 minutes ago, Argus said:

I didn't see aggressive attacks perpetrated by F'ing Nazis. I'm sure there were some, mind you, but none in the videos I saw. What I saw was a bunch of Nazi thugs marching along with their dumbass flags dressed up like cut rate huns and then a bunch of screaming socialists and Marxists, or whatever you want to call them, dressed up like cut rate huns and attacking them.

My allegiance is to neither group. My allegiance is to free speech and peaceful coexistence, to discussing differences openly without violence. I'd frankly like to see everyone on the street there, Left and Right, scooped up in big dump trucks and carried out to the farms to pick cotton for the rest of the summer.

Here here!

[Hal 9000]

Just now, kimmy said:

People like Richard Spencer and David Duke have been calling Trump a friend and ally since long before he was elected, and today is the first time he's actually disavowed them. 

 -k

No it's not!

[Argus]

2 minutes ago, kimmy said:

People like Richard Spencer and David Duke have been calling Trump a friend and ally since long before he was elected, and today is the first time he's actually disavowed them. 

 -k

And what is his word worth anyway? It's meaningless. He's a congenital liar. And given his history, his sympathies are certainly on their side. Remember, this is a guy whose company had to be sued twice by the justice department for not renting to Blacks.

But Trump, while he might have encouraged the 'alt-right' through signaling language, is not the cause of these groups. They've been around forever.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Argus

[kimmy]

2 minutes ago, Argus said:

My allegiance is to neither group. My allegiance is to free speech and peaceful coexistence, to discussing differences openly without violence. I'd frankly like to see everyone on the street there, Left and Right, scooped up in big dump trucks and carried out to the farms to pick cotton for the rest of the summer.

I think there's a limit to peaceful coexistence.  I don't think I could peacefully coexist with a Wahabbi Islamist who thought people like me should be put to death, for example.  I don't think I can blame people for not wanting to coexist with people who march around advocating that blacks belong in cotton-fields or Jews belong in gas-chambers.

 -k

[Hal 9000]

1 minute ago, kimmy said:

People like Richard Spencer and David Duke have been calling Trump a friend and ally since long before he was elected, and today is the first time he's actually disavowed them. 

 -k

The problem isn't with Trump, the problem is that Antifa and BLM and the other leftist groups have aligned and become empowered by the media.  These leftist groups have been getting consistantly more violent with every rally. 

[Argus]

4 minutes ago, kimmy said:

I think there's a limit to peaceful coexistence.  I don't think I could peacefully coexist with a Wahabbi Islamist who thought people like me should be put to death, for example.  I don't think I can blame people for not wanting to coexist with people who march around advocating that blacks belong in cotton-fields or Jews belong in gas-chambers.

 -k

Unfortunately, you don't have that choice. There are Wahabbi Islamists living in our society. White Supremacists, too. Communists, Nazis, and Pedophiles. Probably cultists who want to sacrifice blondes on their alters. And I don't see how things are likely to get better if say "Well, if these people are disgusting and offensive to me so it's okay to physically attack them. We can't do anything to suppress their freedom of speech without endangering our own.

As for these ANTIFA people, for your second sentence, they would silence you if they could, and call you racist scum. You can see it at the M103 demo video I posted.

 

 

Edited August 15, 2017 by Argus

[kimmy]

3 minutes ago, Argus said:

And what is his word worth anyway? It's meaningless. He's a congenital liar. And given his history, his sympathies are certainly on his side. Remember, this is a guy whose company had to be sued twice by the justice department for not renting to Blacks.

Certainly.  I think this is much like the Obama "birther" conspiracy theory... he pandered to the true-believers for 6 years, and only disavowed a personal belief in it when it became a political inconvenience to him.  This is the same. I don't think he's actually a white supremacist or a birther, I just think he likes having the votes of people who think he is. Look at all the pressure it took for him to grudgingly throw those people under the bus. Even Jeff Sessions, who was once deemed too racist to appoint to be a federal judge, had no hesitation in denouncing the white supremacist groups and saying that yes, the justice department was investigating every possible legal avenue including terrorism.  I think that it annoyed Trump that he was forced to sell out bigots that voted for him today, because he needs their vote next time too.

 -k

[kimmy]

4 hours ago, LonJowett said:

Can you provide evidence from a reputable source that Soros paid for the protesters? If you can't, do  you have the integrity to admit you have no evidence?

Alex Jones has claimed that George Soros is behind the anti-racist protests.

So mostly just a lot of mentally impaired people are going to be saying Soros is behind it.

 -k

[Argus]

4 minutes ago, kimmy said:

Certainly.  I think this is much like the Obama "birther" conspiracy theory... he pandered to the true-believers for 6 years, and only disavowed a personal belief in it when it became a political inconvenience to him.  This is the same. I don't think he's actually a white supremacist or a birther, I just think he likes having the votes of people who think he is. Look at all the pressure it took for him to grudgingly throw those people under the bus. Even Jeff Sessions, who was once deemed too racist to appoint to be a federal judge, had no hesitation in denouncing the white supremacist groups and saying that yes, the justice department was investigating every possible legal avenue including terrorism.  I think that it annoyed Trump that he was forced to sell out bigots that voted for him today, because he needs their vote next time too.

 -k

Jeff Sessions has better political instincts than Trump. I wouldn't say Trump is likely a white supremacist. I don't think Trump has any coherent ideology. I don't think Trump even knows what an ideology IS. Trump likes to be admired. That's all that's ever really mattered to him his whole life. If the 'alt-right' admire and cheer him then he's going to find it hard to say anything bad about them. But I would say as far his views on race, that Trump's feelings are about as sophisticated as Archie Bunker. He's not going to be burning any crosses, or physically attacking  anyone, but he wouldn't want a Jew or a Black guy, or a gay guy for that matter, living next door either. Archie wasn't hateful, just really ignorant.

[Argus]

2 minutes ago, kimmy said:

Alex Jones has claimed that George Soros is behind the anti-racist protests.

So mostly just a lot of mentally impaired people are going to be saying Soros is behind it.

 -k

I really don't get where this fixation with Soros came from. I mean, yes he's a billionaire who gives money to political groups, but there's tons of those and most of them are on the right. But you don't see people making up conspiracy stories about the Koch brothers funding Nazis. Well, maybe bad comparison given they're Jews.

[kimmy]

11 hours ago, Argus said:

I think it more likely this was unplanned, and that it was spurred by him being worked up by/enraged by the fighting, probably because he got beaten (speculation, I admit). 

It sounds like you're actually arguing that this was premeditated.  If he got beat up, went back to get his car, and ran over a bunch of people to get "revenge", he should definitely be charged with 1st degree murder, not 2nd.

9 hours ago, Argus said:

Counter rallying is one thing, but when you show up with bricks, bottles, helmets, masks, shields and clubs, that's not a rally and you should all be arrested on the spot.

Here's a picture of James Field (center), the driver of the car that struck the crowd, taken earlier that day. As you can see, he and his friends had riot shields decorated with white power symbols, some of them have ballistic eyewear and helmets, and metal flag-poles... you can't tell me these people weren't ready for a fight.

 -k

[kimmy]

21 minutes ago, Argus said:

I really don't get where this fixation with Soros came from. I mean, yes he's a billionaire who gives money to political groups, but there's tons of those and most of them are on the right. But you don't see people making up conspiracy stories about the Koch brothers funding Nazis. Well, maybe bad comparison given they're Jews.

I think the Koch brothers are actually a pretty good comparison... they were the go-to right-wing billionaire boogeymen for a long time.  Except that most of the stuff that the Koch brothers were accused of doing, they were actually doing. There was a factual basis behind it.  Unlike the current Soros obsession from the Alex Jones types who think Soros is responsible for everything from funding violent protests to creating more-potent marijuana.

 -k

[Michael Hardner]

2 hours ago, drummindiver said:

Don't forget killing free speech. The epoch of fascism.

Free speech is telling you to stuff your Nazi opinions and stop blubbering to mommy about it.  Now it's your turn to reply.

Very simple.

Can you handle it or not?

[Michael Hardner]

49 minutes ago, Argus said:

I really don't get where this fixation with Soros came from.

It's a nutbar conspiracy theory and a great way to differentiate regular conservatives from the drooly kind.

[Michael Hardner]

2 hours ago, Argus said:

What about Communists and Marxists? What if I feel they must be stopped and destroyed. Are you okay with that?

 

 

Yes.  Say that the movements must be stopped and destroyed.  It's your right.