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The Battle of Charlottesville


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6 minutes ago, Wilber said:

Lee was one of the great soldiers of the 19th century and widely regarded as a real gentleman. It's unfortunate that he chose to fight for a cause that wanted to keep people as slaves.

The largest slave holder in the South was a black fellow if I'm not mistaken.

Again, you would do yourself a service by actually reading-up on the US Civil War. There were no bad guys or good guys...just Americans killing each other. No matter the PC bullsheet fed to you, it wasn't about ending slavery until after Gettysburg...1863. Unless you count border states which the abolitionists wanted Federal Law to trump State Law...something the new states were't keen on at all.

I recommend everything by Bruce Catton...

Edited by DogOnPorch
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1 hour ago, drummindiver said:
1 hour ago, drummindiver said:

Damn. Try thread drift of this caliber when you're moderating.

Only thing pointed out is that the fascist left is still trying to shut down free speech, just as you do here when you disagree with an opinion.

Once again, I'm not moderating.  Disagreeing with you is not shutting down speech.  That's probably the stupidest idea today. (So far.)

And it's exactly on topic.  Time to log out for a few days and do some reading...

 

1 hour ago, drummindiver said:

 

1 hour ago, drummindiver said:

 

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3 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

The right side? In 1862, when Seven Pines occurred, the conflict wasn't even about 'right or wrong' re: slavery. It was still about King Cotton. Remember...Lee had already 'emancipated' his slaves before hostilities. A large number of Union generals were staunchly FOR continuing slavery. 

Nobody reads Bruce Catton, anymore, it would seem.

It was always about slavery, even if it wasn't yet official policy. The South believed King Cotton required slavery to be economically viable. Lee never spent any time in the deep south among cotton and rice plantations.  All his time was spent in the North or border states and his experience of slavery was probably slavery at its best.

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2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

The who-started-it discussion happens every war.  I think Trump did.  State your opinion on that if you want.

Stopping the escalation is on our leaders.  That's their job.  Betsy's hero is not up to the task.  If Betsy thinks protesting justifies violence, she doesn't get it.  

Yeah, stopping the escalation is the job of leaders.  That's why I blame the Charllotesville authorities for this!  Why have these two groups at the same location?

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Just now, Wilber said:

It was always about slavery, even if it wasn't yet official policy. The South believed King Cotton required slavery to be economically viable. Lee never spent any time in the deep south among cotton and rice plantations.  All his time was spent in the North or border states and his experience of slavery was probably slavery at its best.

 

Your history is faulty.

Slavery...ending it...was only an issue in the so-called border states before 1863. Kentucky, W Virginia, Missouri.

Not in the South. 

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5 hours ago, Altai said:

It first start with hate speech and insults under the pretext of freedom of speech. Then turns out as some attacks against places and persons subject to hate speech and insults.

  It's not the right to free expression that's at fault.  It's the "mob mentality."

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3 hours ago, Argus said:

Hate is hate - but it's okay to hate if someone disagrees with you, and okay to attack them in the streets. And if anyone disagrees, why, then they're a racist.

That's the way it is with left wingers.   As you can see from some of the posts here - they're all ignoring the fact that the left wing protesters were as guilty as the right-wing in committing acts of hate and violence.  

 

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5 hours ago, Chrissy1979 said:

Can betsy criticize the Nazis enough to say that the Nazis who were there in full body armour with guns might have also been looking for a fight? Or are Trump's Nazis wholly innocent in this? I just know Trump can't criticize them directly. Maybe Putin won't let him because he knows how divisive to the country being silent about Nazis could be.

 

So there were people carrying guns. Are only right-wingers the ones carrying guns?   Were shots fired? 

Is it wrong to wear body armors in an event such as this?   Heck, just getting hit by flying projectiles can be deadly.

 

The buck stops with Charlottesville authorities for not having the foresight to see this happening!  They already had a taste of it the night before......and they still let these two groups converge at the same location.  What were they thinking?

 

Oh....and that Dem (mayor) even blamed the right wingers for the death of the two in a helicopter crash - who "needlessly died" because of this incident.  :rolleyes:

  It's not the fault of the protesters if the helicopter crashed, unless it was shot down from the sky by the protesters, buster!

Edited by betsy
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2 minutes ago, Wilber said:

 

Did your source forget this fellow? Apparently...

Not the biggest...just one of the biggest in South Carolina where this Lee miff started.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Ellison

How does he fit into your no-true-Scotsman scenarios?

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13 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Americans have the constitutional right to free speech and bear arms....it's a great 1 - 2 combination !

 

........and with those people - mostly hot-headed, impulsive youth - who knows how many among them were armed with gun....... it's amazing that no one resorted to a shoot-out what with all that hatred flying around!  It's one guy who'd lost it that rammed that car.

How many among them were stoned, I wonder?  I saw the footage.  That there's only one casualty, is surprising with this kind of situation.  It could've been a whole lot worse!

 

 Charlottesville officials have a lot of explaining to do why they let this kind of violence to continue on to the next day!  There should've been drastic changes after that violent confrontation the night before.

Edited by betsy
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8 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Did your source forget this fellow? Apparently...

Not the biggest...just one of the biggest in South Carolina where this Lee miff started.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Ellison

How does he fit into your no-true-Scotsman scenarios?

Say what, your link doesn't say Ellison held any more than 53 slaves.

Also from South Carolina

Joshua Ward,   1130 slaves

William Aitken, 700 slaves

Robert Withers, 631 slaves

Joseph Blake, 575 slaves

As a big player, he doesn't fit at all. The only thing that makes him unusual is that he was black.

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6 minutes ago, Wilber said:

Say what, your link doesn't say Ellison held any more than 53 slaves.

Also from South Carolina

Joshua Ward,   1130 slaves

William Aitken, 700 slaves

Robert Withers, 631 slaves

Joseph Blake, 575 slaves

As a big player, he doesn't fit at all. The only thing that makes him unusual is that he was black.

 

No True Scotsman would hold slaves.

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55 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Your history is faulty.

Slavery...ending it...was only an issue in the so-called border states before 1863. Kentucky, W Virginia, Missouri.

Not in the South. 

There were a lot of reasons for the war and slavery was a factor in just about all of them.

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Charlottesville saw what happened the night before......

 

 

....and yet, it was allowed to go on the next day.

 

.....and the mayor of Charlottesville blames Trump.  Is he daft?

 

 

And he has the gall to go spouting off on national tv. :D

 

It happened on your watch, Mr. Mayor.   It was preventable. It shouldn't have happened.....but it did.  You let it happened.

Edited by betsy
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44 minutes ago, betsy said:

Charlottesville saw what happened the night before......

 

 

....and yet, it was allowed to go on the next day.

 

.....and the mayor of Charlottesville blames Trump.  Is he daft?

 

 

And he has the gall to go spouting off on national tv. :D

 

It happened on your watch, Mr. Mayor.   It was preventable. It shouldn't have happened.....but it did.  You let it happened.

He did try to stop the assemblies but the pro-free-speech left-wingers (that do not exist according to you and Argus) went to court to allow it to happen. Maybe you should have read more about the situation before coming to conclusions about who (besides the Nazis) might be responsible.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/8/12/16138326/aclu-charlottesville-protests-racism

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9 minutes ago, LonJowett said:

He did try to stop the assemblies but the pro-free-speech left-wingers (that do not exist according to you and Argus) went to court to allow it to happen. Maybe you should have read more about the situation before coming to conclusions about who (besides the Nazis) might be responsible.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/8/12/16138326/aclu-charlottesville-protests-racism

The courts have been VERY clear for a lot of years that you cannot ban a group from demonstrating just because you hate their views. I notice the mayor didn't try to revoke any permits for ANTIFA, who are the ones who caused the trouble in the first place.

And while Trump has now come out and unequivocally condemned the white supremacists (as have  many Republicans previously, and even FOX news) I'm still waiting to hear ANYONE in media or politics condemn the thugs of ANTIFA for showing up to block a legal demonstration through violence.

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On 8/12/2017 at 9:39 PM, eyeball said:

I thought it was Virginia? I any case according to Trump there's no place in America for the bigotry and hate he says many sides put on display today.  Presumably everyone involved in today's clash was in the wrong and he doesn't want to take sides.   Perhaps he fancies himself as some sort of great centrist.

It was the leftist ANTIFA sjw warrior thugs that were in the wrong. They were paid by Soros to go create trouble against a people who were there to peacefully march and express their right to freedom of speech. It worked again for Soros and his ethnic ilk. And that democratic liberal Virginia governor went on TV to complain and condemn the peaceful marchers and he blamed in the end for the chaos and riot when he should have attacked to leftist communist Soros thugs who started it all. The only hate and bigotry that is being shown these days is coming from Soros and his gang of communist stupid little liberal snowflake thugs. You need to get your facts straight before you start to blame people who did nothing at all for what happened in Virginia. :rolleyes:

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4 minutes ago, taxme said:

It was the leftist ANTIFA sjw warrior thugs that were in the wrong. They were paid by Soros to go create trouble against a people who were there to peacefully march and express their right to freedom of speech. It worked again for Soros and his ethnic ilk. And that democratic liberal Virginia governor went on TV to complain and condemn the peaceful marchers and he blamed in the end for the chaos and riot when he should have attacked to leftist communist Soros thugs who started it all. The only hate and bigotry that is being shown these days is coming from Soros and his gang of communist stupid little liberal snowflake thugs. You need to get your facts straight before you start to blame people who did nothing at all for what happened in Virginia. :rolleyes:

Can you provide evidence from a reputable source that Soros paid for the protesters? If you can't, do  you have the integrity to admit you have no evidence?

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18 minutes ago, LonJowett said:

He did try to stop the assemblies but the pro-free-speech left-wingers (that do not exist according to you and Argus) went to court to allow it to happen. Maybe you should have read more about the situation before coming to conclusions about who (besides the Nazis) might be responsible.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/8/12/16138326/aclu-charlottesville-protests-racism

If the leftist cry baby fake and phony liberal media could they would try and blame Trump for starting world war 2. White nationalists have had enough of this leftist liberal democratic nonsense and are now starting to fight back against the oppression and tyranny that the likes of the Soros democrats and liberals have been forcing on them for decades. Now the losers will have to reap what they have sowed.  It's pay back time. :D

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9 minutes ago, Argus said:

The courts have been VERY clear for a lot of years that you cannot ban a group from demonstrating just because you hate their views. I notice the mayor didn't try to revoke any permits for ANTIFA, who are the ones who caused the trouble in the first place.

And while Trump has now come out and unequivocally condemned the white supremacists (as have  many Republicans previously, and even FOX news) I'm still waiting to hear ANYONE in media or politics condemn the thugs of ANTIFA for showing up to block a legal demonstration through violence.

If he failed at stopping the protest, how would he be able to stop the counter-protest?

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