Compensating Khadr

[jacee]

13 hours ago, Hydraboss said:

As far as I know, there are no internationally recognized treaties that address "child terrorists".  As this guy was not a national (he was a Canadian), the only way he could legally be recognized as a "child soldier" would be if he was officially fighting for one of the "recognized" sides.  He wasn't - he was engaged in terrorist activities, which as far as I am aware, carries no protections whatsoever.  Canada should have had absolutely no responsibility to him as he had abdicated his citizenship for all intents and purposes.

How old was he when he "abdicated his citizenship" ?  

[Rue]

4 hours ago, Benz said:

What you are saying is not false, but it's not compelling in that specific case.

Children have rights. If the child of a Jehovah's Witness is dying and need blood transfusion, we will take the child from its parents and give it no matter what the parents think. Because we think children's rights are more important than the parents' rights over their children.

In the case of Khadr, we failed at all levels. We fail to protect him from his dad, we failed to prevent his move to Afghanistan to serve the terrorists as his dad wanted, EVEN IF WE KNEW his dad is a notorious terrorist... whether or not he was the one that throw that bomb does not change anything. He was a child and the justice should have been adapted accordingly. We failed at that as well.

Whether you have seen from your own eye or not, a little 8 years old girl blowing up herself as a human bomb and kill dozens of innocents, it does not make any difference. If we would have patriated Khadr and have a tribunal for youth, the system  would have take care of his reeducation.

Noooo, instead, we violated his rights and now we give me 10M.

You think children should ne judged the same way of the adults? Be my guess, try and change the system.

In regards to sentence 2 you are actually wrong. You should read the case law. We've had children die because  their parents refuse them medical help on religious grounds. Trying to apprehend children in danger is not the black and white easy process you portray it as.

In regards to paragraph 3 do not accuse me or any Canadian of having failed Kadr. Knock off the liberal blame society "we" guilt crap. There is no WE.  If  that was the case then all Muslims are to blame for Kadr. Your contention WE failed to protect him from his Dad is nonsensical. His father removed him from Canada. His father, was a terrorist, was released from Pakistani jail because Chretiens interceded and got him released the same Chretiens who then chose to leave Kadr in G Bay. I am not responsible for the mistakes of Jean Chretien-you won't to climb on a cross and play martyr for Kadr and play the role of Jesus administering him forgiveness save that fiction for your own world. I am not his saviour, his martyr, I am his target of hatred and violence and death. .

You want to hold Canadians responsible for him. Bullsheeyat. Start with his father, start with the mullahs, imams and Muslims who trained him to to kill. There's no we. There is his father, his mother, his Muslim teachers, Al Quaeda and yes himself.

 His throwing a grenade, his choosing to be a terrorist, his engaging in terrorism of course changed the equation. He wasn't innocent at the time his rights were violated, he was dripping in the blood of innocent victims he killed.

 He was not in Canada. He was not acting as a child in distress in Canada. You engage in fiction first trying to compare him to a non violent, non terrorist child in Canada and now suggest WE failed him because what...we should   have sent a social worker to a Pakistan terrorist camp and remove him? Are you serious?

If he had been in Canada, ironically people like you would be the first to scream under the charter that  his father has the right to be a Muslim terrorist in Canada and teach him extremist views.. Welcome to Canada. Welcome. Bring your extremism with you because WEW welcome all people. Oh yah you bet I have heard the speech.

Tell me would you stand up in his Mosque where his parents brought him up and tell his Mosque members that condoning hatred of Canada was and is not acceptable?  Will you go see Mrs. Kadr this weekend in Brampton and tell her to stop preaching that she hates Canadian and Western democracies and thinks we should all be replaced with biute force if necessary in the name of her Muslim beliefs? Well? When was the last time you did anything to challenge Muslim extremists or for that matter anyone supporting terrorism? Don't point your finger at me-look in the mirror. I am not we. I am me and you are you. Don't assume I am part of your world. I am not. I do not have that privilege and if you can't figure that out get out of the bubble you live in where you assume everyone is exactly like you so you can label them a we. There is no we and never was. That's your creation because you won't differentiate you from me. You use we to make me you.

Where are liberals like you when Muslim extremists come to Canada and openly advocate the views of the Kadrs. You are there in the name of multi-culturalism giggling and jumping for joy thinking it makes you oh so morally righteous. Who you hate a Muslim? You? Not you. That's simply something Trump does. Oh I get it. Every now and then I do watch CBC. There were no Muslims in Corner Gas. They did however have one comedy about Muslims in Canada. No extremists on that show. Oh I know your world. Save it..

 The Kadr family for years openly pissed on Canada advocating terror against the West openly. They ran a charity in Canada as they called it collecting money for Al Quaeda terrorist operations protected by the Charter, Where were you-you are where you were then, demanding the charter protect a terrorist only in this case you create the fiction and selective amnesia that you don't have to consider Omar;s dirty hands and what he was doing at the time you claim he was an innocent child.

You engage in the exact same apologist reasoning used on Kadr's parents to now portray him as a child victim who a social worker should have saved so I am responsible for that?  WE? You mean you and people like you engaged in this fantasy world that if you turn Kadr into a cuddly panda bear he isn't a monster, if you call him a child, he isn't a monster, He's a monster. He bites. He hisses. He smells of sulphur. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Tell me, how do you rationalize that in his religion he is not to make money directly or indirectly from crime or violence but he's doing just that now?  Tell me, what reasoning is it where you have to twist to equate him to a Jehova's Wintess unable to get a blood transfusion? What prevents you from spitting it out and admitting what he was doing, killing innocent people-he was killing innocent people-he was making bombs to kill innocent people? Why is it so hard for you to admit monsters exist? There is no we. I admit monsters exist.

Kasrdenounced his Canadian citizenship ridiculing our laws including Charter of Rights, and illegally entered a foreign country to kill and maim and openly state he and his group do not follow any laws but their own and the belief they can use terror to impose their beliefs.

You want to equate that with a child not being allowed a blood transfusion by his parents? You have any clue what goes on in Family Courts and what child abuse is to equate Kadr to an abused child like what we have to deal with in Family court? Tell me you want to equate him and put him on the same moral plane as child victims of terrorists? That is exactly what you are doing in the name of your fiction to pretend he is not a monster.

Some of you assume he was an innocent child. A child caught red handed killing is not innocent and his child status as you want to call it does not necessarily exist. Being a child is not a state of arbitrary age, its a state of mind and this is precisely why some youth under 18 are tried for serious crimes as adults from 16-18. Now you tell me you don't think that age of 16 ishouldn't be 15 or 14?  Our law chose an arbitrary age ghat its reviewing and it was drafted for domestic crimes not terrorism

In fact people like me who work with youth in the legal system have seen children far younger than 15 do horrendous things-calling them children doesn't negate what they did and what the consequences of their deeds should be.. A terrorist should not be able to get away with killing simply because he was born at a certain time. That's your world. There is no we on that.

For me, not you, he is a cold blooded, calculated killer quoting prepared canned, 10 second sound bites and knew how to refuse to answer why he accepted blood money and won't as per Muslim law give it to the widow of the person he killed as Muslim law tells him to.

To me he's a cold calculated manipulator who denounced the charter and Canadian citizenship but then was quick to hide behind both once caught. He knows what part of the Koran to chant, and what part to ignore. He pisses on the Charter but demands its protection when its convenient to him. He told the world he lied to get out of G Bay. This is a self admitted manipulator and you romanticize him as an innocent child.

This abused kid fiction is your exercise not mine  of making terrorists reasonable, misunderstood victims. Save that Trudeau crap. Its for sheltered, elitist, privileged people brought up with no war, no conflict, no terrorism, no clue of the smell of blood and who think if they hug  terrorist they won't be the target of that terrorist.. ts based on a fiction where if you turn the boogy man into a cuddly teddy bear he no longer scares you at night. T.

That may be what you need to relieve your anxiety and fears of terrorists but in my world I need a gun and a detachment from emotion and a sense of absolute nothingness when I face them  and take them out.

 There is no WE. WE, that is to say I, don't turn the boogy man into a cute cuddly teddy bear.  He has to be taken out  before he can kill.

The monster is what he is, a one eye browed, smirking, manipulative, killer playing your guilt feelings like a fiddle. He grows and he is empowered by your guilt and fear of him. You blow him up like a balloon and are afraid of the bang when people like me pop those ballons.

There's a doctrine. Its called the doctrine of clean hands. It says no one, but no one, even when their rights are violated have the right to benefit individually from wrong-doing ever. That principle is paramount and when the Charter is applied it must be considered or it renders the Charter meaningless. By being able to use the Charter wih dirty hands, Kadr has now rendered the Charter meaningless, and he's turned it into a shield where terrorists can demand compensation if we violate their charter rights. That happened because Trudeau abandon his responsibility to challenge the amount to be awarded with the clean hands doctrine and by so doing Trudeau now has set a precedent that will enable future terrorists to demand payments. Trudeau has done permanent damage to the very integral basis of our laws for short term political partisan reasons.

Trudeau made a political decision to cover up what Chretiens did and not go to court and challenge the amount to be paid .

What about you? You even know what the doctrine of clean hands is and how if its ignored undermines all laws including the charter?

From what I have read,you think you live in a world where if a 10  to 15 year old kills in cold blood, you pay him 10.5 million and send him on his way and think you've solved the problem.

You think  if you pay off the  problem poof its gone.. No Kadr like Karla Hamolka and so many others, many under 15 are in fact walking the streets. They aren't going away.

 

 

Edited July 12, 2017 by Rue

[GostHacked]

14 hours ago, Rue said:

Who is "we"? If you are part of the "we" then why are you not asking yourself that question?

You use the "we" as if you can blame all of Canada for what Kadr and terrorists are but what about you Snow White?

Next, save the bull crap. This Trudeau pop psychology politics trying to blame the West, Canadians, anyone but you for Kadr, his family extremist Muslims, save the crap.

Save the sheltered, elitist, leftist crap where everyone and anyone but you and terrorists have culpability for your actions.

We? Where do you get off let alone presume to suggest I am responsible for Muslim extremist terrorism, Kadr, his father, his mother and people who choose to commit crime?

Where do you get off trying to blame me or any Canadian? Save your pseuto pop blame society crap. In my world and the world you refuse to live in, responsibility begins and ends with each individual and our free choice.

Go sing that Kadr is a victim of society crap on someone else. No one in Canada is responsible for what he is. You right now are responsible for apologizing and making excuses for him.

 

SFTU, you know damn F'n well what is meant by 'we'. We've gone through this bull with you before on this exact matter.

Were you for invading Afghanistan?

I suggest you head on back to that place called Israel. Get out of my country.

 

[drummindiver]

9 hours ago, Omni said:

Those are quite the interesting little assumptions. Any proof or just demonstrating a little more of the old right wing xenophobia?

Every act he and his family has done is to that end.....no right wing xenophobia.

Maybe a little leftie admiration?

 

[drummindiver]

13 hours ago, Omni said:

You're struggling now. He didn't get compensation for engaging in terrorism. We know why, and I've explained it. You don't have to agree with the courts, that's your choice.

Again, the courts have never said he was entitled to money. That's your leftist extrapolation.  Poster boy for terrorism sues so obviously SCOC will pay.

Huge snarc.

[drummindiver]

23 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

SFTU, you know damn F'n well what is meant by 'we'. We've gone through this bull with you before on this exact matter.

Were you for invading Afghanistan?

I suggest you head on back to that place called Israel. Get out of my country.

 

Yes, better Muslim extremists than pro Israeli people in Canada.

Why don't you stfu and head back to any of those shit#holes and despots you admire so much.

[drummindiver]

1 hour ago, jacee said:

How old was he when he "abdicated his citizenship" ?  

When his terrorist family left Canada to enroll him in terrorism school. 

[dialamah]

From Espritdecorps, a Canadian Military Magazine:

Quote

 

To call throwing a grenade in a battle ‘murder’ is ludicrous in the extreme. To follow that logic, given that Khadr was shot twice and suffered shrapnel wounds prior to being captured, the American soldiers involved should be charged with attempted murder.

There is also no clear-cut evidence that Khadr actually threw the grenade that killed Speer. During his lengthy captivity at Guantanamo Bay, Khadr was tortured by his U.S. captors and his ‘confession’ to Speer’s murder was a key condition in securing his release from prison. There was never any independent verification of Khadr’s action.

 

It seems to me that despite the Conservative claim that they are not emotionally driven, their objection to this payout is based purely on partisan emotion - they ignore both facts and basic human rights in order to try to score points against the Liberal government.  

[dialamah]

57 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

 

I suggest you head on back to that place called Israel. Get out of my country.

 

People are allowed to express their opinion without being ordered out of the country.  It is just as much Rue's country as yours.

[capricorn]

2 minutes ago, dialamah said:

It seems to me that despite the Conservative claim that they are not emotionally driven, their objection to this payout is based purely on partisan emotion - they ignore both facts and basic human rights in order to try to score points against the Liberal government.  

...they ignore both facts and basic human rights in order to try to score points against the {insert party name here} government.

[Omni]

2 hours ago, Rue said:

Of course he did. Had he not engaged in terrorism his being apprehended as a terrorist would not have triggered his being apprehended. You subjectively ignore this causal connection because you won't acknowledge the doctrine of clean hands or public morality.  Play your game with someone else its lame and spent.

He was apprehended during a firefight om a battlefield in case you missed it.

[dialamah]

55 minutes ago, capricorn said:

...they ignore both facts and basic human rights in order to try to score points against the {insert party name here} government.

Fact:  Khadr's case was about charter rights, not war crimes (ignored by Conservatives)

Fact: Khadr was a child when he was taken to Afghanistan and was still a child when he was caught.  (Ignored by Conservatives).

Fact:  Khadr's confession was given after he'd been tortured (ignored by Conservatives).    

Fact:  There is very little evidence, other than a coerced confession, that Khadr threw the grenade; there is more evidence that he could not have thrown it (ignored by Conservatives).

Emotion:  Khadr was a hardened terrorist who is now benefitting from his terror activities because Trudeau/Liberals.

 

 

 

[drummindiver]

11 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Fact:  Khadr's case was about charter rights, not war crimes (ignored by Conservatives)

Fact: Khadr was a child when he was taken to Afghanistan and was still a child when he was caught.  (Ignored by Conservatives).

Fact:  Khadr's confession was given after he'd been tortured (ignored by Conservatives).    

Fact:  There is very little evidence, other than a coerced confession, that Khadr threw the grenade; there is more evidence that he could not have thrown it (ignored by Conservatives).

Emotion:  Khadr was a hardened terrorist who is now benefitting from his terror activities because Trudeau/Liberals.

 

 

 

Kadr admitted responsibility in the interview after he'd received payment. Sorry if  that doesn't fit your pro extremist narrative.

[drummindiver]

1 hour ago, Omni said:

He was apprehended during a firefight om a battlefield in case you missed it.

He was an illegal combatant as agreed upon by everyone in case you missed it.

[Omni]

Just now, drummindiver said:

He was an illegal combatant as agreed upon by everyone in case you missed it.

That charge did not apply and was dismissed in case you missed it.

[Goddess]

Doesn't anyone find  it ironic/twisted that the world praises 15 year old Malala for her stand against the Taliban, but 15 year old Khadr JOINS them gleefully and Canada pays him 10 million dollars?

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, Goddess said:

Doesn't anyone find  it ironic/twisted that the world praises 15 year old Malala for her stand against the Taliban, but 15 year old Khadr JOINS them gleefully and Canada pays him 10 million dollars?

 

Malala ended-up giving $50K to Hamas to rebuild schools in Gaza.

If you recall, Hamas uses schools and hospitals as bunkers.

[drummindiver]

13 minutes ago, Omni said:

That charge did not apply and was dismissed in case you missed it.

Really? By whom?

http://m.torontosun.com/2017/07/07/trudeau-treating-khadr-with-kid-gloves

[jacee]

40 minutes ago, drummindiver said:

Kadr admitted responsibility in the interview after he'd received payment. Sorry if  that doesn't fit your pro extremist narrative.

I don't believe that's correct. I think what he said was he "didn't know" whether he threw the grenade (due to injuries and associated memory loss, I assume), but he hoped he didn't.

A lot of this discussion may become quite irrelevant after Khadr's appeal of his conviction.

I think we'd all be wise to wait for that outcome.

Edited July 12, 2017 by jacee

[dialamah]

58 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Doesn't anyone find  it ironic/twisted that the world praises 15 year old Malala for her stand against the Taliban, but 15 year old Khadr JOINS them gleefully and Canada pays him 10 million dollars?

He wasn't paid 10 million for joining the Taliban: he was paid because the court determined that his rights as a Canadian citizen had been violated.  

If you want a country that applies or denies rights based on whims or uninformed public opinion instead of principles, there are plenty to choose from.  

 

[Goddess]

8 minutes ago, dialamah said:

He wasn't paid 10 million for joining the Taliban: he was paid because the court determined that his rights as a Canadian citizen had been violated.  

Potato/Potahto

Canadian "citizens" who gleefully join the Taliban and fight for them as terrorists against Canadians and their allies, should not be considered Canadian citizens.

My point is that Malala made a choice and so did Khadr.  He choose poorly and should not be rewarded or shielded from the consequences of his choice.

[Army Guy]

20 hours ago, Omni said:

Except those charges against Khadr were dismissed

No, his criminal charges were dismissed....however during his "administrative hearings" where they were determined to be “illegal combatants."  the administrative hearing are a separate process, not done by the military commission or Kangaroo court as you called it.....That being said being an Illigal combatant is a war crime in its self , and he has not been charged with this crime....

[capricorn]

54 minutes ago, jacee said:

A lot of this discussion may become quite irrelevant after Khadr's appeal of his conviction.

I think we'd all be wise to wait for that outcome.

Do I detect that you would like us to STFU and not discuss this matter any further?

[Goddess]

http://www.torontosun.com/2017/07/11/liberals-miscalculated-on-khadr-settlement

 

Quote

 

The Canadian government dismissed Capt. Robert Semrau from the army in 2010 for shooting a horribly wounded insurgent in Afghanistan, to put the enemy out of his obvious misery. Semrau’s conduct was labelled “disgraceful.”

Khadr confessed to killing a U.S. special forces medic (a confession he later disavowed), and rather than brand his actions as “disgraceful,” the Trudeau government gives him a $10.5-million bonus.

Most Canadians in jail abroad are there for drug or other criminal offences, but Amnesty International says several are political prisoners, subjected to torture.

Most of those being tortured were arrested for being champions of democracy or human rights, or because they were Christian missionaries.

They were not fighters for al-Qaida, as Khadr was.

The Trudeau government has its sensibilities and priorities screwed on backwards.

 

 

[Argus]

20 hours ago, Melanie_ said:

So, if a civilian is in a private home that is attacked by a foreign army intending to kill everyone in it, but said civilian is not in a uniform or wearing an armband or carrying arms openly in public, they cannot take part in hostilities and have no right to defend themselves?

According to reports the people in the 'house' opened fire on scouts, and then were given a number of opportunities to surrender, but chose not to.